University Athletic Association

[ExTartanPlayer]

No one in my h.s. knew about W&L, counting the guidance department, when I went there and the school carried about the same rating. I was constantly asked why I was going to William and Mary, or Washington U or, the real kicker, why with my grades I wasn't going to a better school. W&L was my reach!

First, I'll admit that I chuckled here, because I had similar experiences when speaking with people from my hometown that were unfamiliar with academia.  Not with guidance counselors or teachers, but with random acquaintances (i.e. the barber, the mailman, etc - "You're going where now?  Oh, is that a good school?"), so I can relate to that on a personal level.  This circles back to my earlier theory that it's not the region of the nation, but who you're talking to....

Is it nationally known? Not by the number of employers in the Northeast who looked at my resume and had no idea how good a school I went to. Down here in the South I get ton of credit. In the Northeast I got a blank stare. That to me is a very good indication of regional regardless of U.S. News...

Fair enough if that's been your experience with W & L.  In my admittedly-biased sample of friends and acquaintances from CMU, I have yet to hear of any classmates seeking employment whose prospective employer had not heard of CMU or was unaware of its caliber.  If they walked into a bar and asked a random cross-section of people, sure, people might not have heard of CMU.  When they're interviewing for jobs, nobody complains that their employer hasn't heard of CMU.

Again: I'd argue that it's not the region of the country, but who you are talking to.  CMU is certainly "nationally known" among academics and employers in technical fields; perhaps it is not "nationally known" by high school students and, in your experience, guidance counselors or teachers.  Fair enough.

[ADL70]

Okay, let's agree to disagree about what is meant by "nationally known" and in whose eyes.

[jknezek]

Okay, let's agree to disagree about what is meant by "nationally known" and in whose eyes.

Seconded.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Okay, let's agree to disagree about what is meant by "nationally known" and in whose eyes.

Seconded.

But what else will we talk about until the season starts?

I kid.  Good discussion, as usual.  We've all made our key points.

[DagarmanSpartan]

jknezek,

Well, I was born and raised in Houston, TX, and the people at my high school (St. John's School in Houston) DEFINITELY knew about W&L.  I graduated in 1990, to give you a frame of reference.

W&L was a very popular school for graduates of my high school.  Pretty much every graduating class at St. John's sends at least a few of its graduates to W&L.  One guy that graduated a year before I did even played football there!

I had heard of CWRU in high school.  One other guy from my graduating class also applied and was accepted there, but ended up attending Lehigh instead.  I, of course, went on to CWRU.  At least two members of my graduating class went on to Washington U.-St. Louis, one to Emory, at least one to Johns Hopkins (then a UAA member), and one to Chicago.  None from my class attended NYU, Rochester, Brandies or CMU, but members of other graduating classes from my HS have gone to those schools as well.

Now then.

If you're talking about SMALL TOWN Texas..............sure.

Not many people in small town TX have heard of either CWRU or W&L.  In fact, outside of the big state universities in TX, and a small number of big-time Division I athletic schools out of state, it'd be hard for any school to become well known in some of the more rednecky TX small towns.  Even the Ivy League schools might not be household names there!

I'm guessing that that's true everywhere.  But consider the following:

I would doubt that most people in small town TX have heard of any of the NESCAC schools, but that certainly does not mean that they aren't nationally known, or aren't national schools.  Why not?  Because their academic reputations are definitely nationally known!

To me that's what being a "national university" means: having an academic reputation that is strong and well-known all over the country, regardless of the demographics of the student body.

[DagarmanSpartan]

Gang,

Rowing is only a "club" sport at Case, and as well all know, Case is a member of NCAA Division III.

Nevertheless, Case apparently has a rower that was good enough to just win the nation's largest intercollegiate rowing competition, and even has a possibility of making the national (and possibly the Olympic) team.

Check out this article!

http://cwru-daily.com/news/undergraduate-wins-universitys-first-gold-medal-at-national-rowing-championships/

Is there anyone out there that knows enough about intercollegiate rowing to be able to say whether or not this is a "big-time" accomplishment?

If it is, then I'd say that rowing should probably be elevated from club to varsity status!

[ADL70]

Quite the accomplishment for DelBarba, but one rower's success is hardly cause for adding a varsity sport.

The Dad Vail is a big deal.  It's probably the only US regatta known to those who don't follow rowing, like me.

[DagarmanSpartan]

ADL70,

But what case could be made against it?

Case is apparently already competitive, we have the boats, the water nearby (at least in good weather), and the NCAA already sponsors a Division III women's rowing championship (if not men's).

Seems to me that this would be the easiest sport to transition to varsity status.

Apparently this "club" already has a coach.  Is he a volunteer, or does he get paid something?

[ADL70]

I don't know the details of the sport, but one rower does not a team make.  A club team can include undergraduates, graduate students, and even faculty, while except for limited exceptions an NCAA varsity sport can only be for undergraduates.

It appears the NCAA has a championship for women's rowing, but not men's.

Two sports that were once varsity at CWRU, fencing and golf, would seemingly be easier to restart.  I was surprised Dials didn't promote golf, as he was a single digit handicap. 

[formerd3db]

I don't know the details of the sport, but one rower does not a team make.  A club team can include undergraduates, graduate students, and even faculty, while except for limited exceptions an NCAA varsity sport can only be for undergraduates.

It appears the NCAA has a championship for women's rowing, but not men's.

Two sports that were once varsity at CWRU, fencing and golf, would seemingly be easier to restart.  I was surprised Dials didn't promote golf, as he was a single digit handicap.

ADL70:

I assume you are talking only about rowing with regard to faculty members being allowed to participate on a club team representing their college/university.  I wasn't aware of such allowance for that, which is neat, in a sense, if that is so.  However, I do know that is not allowed in most of the other club collegiate sports, at least not in lacrosse, hockey or football.  Most of the legitimate national club collegiate organizations and conference collegiate organizations (such as the American Collegiate Hockey Association, the Men's Club Collegiate Lacrosse association, etc. and the conferences that are members of either organization) are set up to run essentially the same way the NCAA runs those programs for DIII, including eligibility rules concerning maintaining a minimum grade point to remain playing.  A student-athlete has to be a full-time student at the school regardless of whether or not they are an undergraduate or graduate program student, again, faculty members ineligible to participate.



   

[ADL70]

Right, just what I read on the CWRU Crew page.

[formerd3db]

Right, just what I read on the CWRU Crew page.

Thanks.  I'll have to check out the webpages regarding requirements of the club collegiate crew programs at other colleges/universities.  Most likely those are similar to that of CWRU.  Also, it seems logical that schools like CWRU in the Great Lakes areas and those near other waterways would be able to have crew programs if there is enough interest, and at the very least, at the club collegiate level i.e. virtual varsity, although I can't imagine that adding it at an actual varsity status would cost that much $. Besides, the season would be so short, yet I doubt the student-athletes involved in that mind at all.     

[Pat Coleman]

It's a club sport and the schools can do what they want to, in terms of allowing grad students, faculty members, staff, or students that are ineligible for intercollegiate athletics. However, any association they might join would likely be able to impose team membership restrictions.

Often the teams and their coaches are funded by student government and student activity fees, but this certainly can depend on the school.

[formerd3db]

It's a club sport and the schools can do what they want to, in terms of allowing grad students, faculty members, staff, or students that are ineligible for intercollegiate athletics. However, any association they might join would likely be able to impose team membership restrictions.

Often the teams and their coaches are funded by student government and student activity fees, but this certainly can depend on the school.

You are correct, Pat.  A club sport that is independent at a school can do what they want, for the most part, although, the club organization itself is controlled by/under the auspices of the administration of the particular school.  At Hope College, for example, the governing board of a club sport reports to the Dean of Students, which, in turn, his department and the financial department of the college oversees/handles any funding that is raised in fundraisers and/or "dues for play" by either the student-athletes themselves in an organized effort, parent booster programs and/or, as you have also pointed out, student government and student activity fees.  At some schools, coaches are paid by the college, many others are simply volunteer.  Also, Hope's club collegiate hockey team, for example, gets use of the College's team buses and the college pays for all the ice arena time, however, many other DIII club collegiate hockey teams are not as fortunate and are responsible for making arrangements of everything.

Unlike some DIII schools, Hope doesn't have any graduate degree programs (other than the combined nursing degree program), however, I do know they do not allow faculty to participate.  Although for a club crew team(rowing team, as some of the colleges/universities call it) such as CRWR, apparently a faculty member can participate, which, again, I think is neat.   

Yet, as you mention, if such club team(s) choose to join an association or organized conference (if they are accepted, and that is quite a process as you know i.e. not a lock-in for any applying program), for sure, they are obligated to abide by the rules of those organizations, again, as you pointed out.

I think that, overall, it is good that many of the schools allow these competitive club sports as it provides additional opportunities for the students.  Hope even has a club collegiate rugby team in recent years.  Also, (and I'm sure you probably already knew this) there are club collegiate football conferences.  I was interested to learn in recent years that one has been in existence here in Michigan/Ohio/Wisconsin.  Teams like U of M-Flint, Loyola-Chicago, Marquette Univ, (and even Ohio State believe it or not) participate, although some of their games are against the J.V. teams of DIII, NAIA schools and/or newly installed varsity programs that in the building process, such as Concordia-Ann Arbor and Siena Heights University did in recent years.  Other schools have brought club collegiate football in an effort to start a process (i.e. campaign) to try and bring back varsity football from their programs having been dropped many years ago (for example, New Orleans University, again, Marquette, etc. to name a couple).           

[southview]

Has anyone watched film on all of the Case football recruits? How do they look? Anyone particular standouts?