University Athletic Association

[NCC_alum62]

Every school that has a football program "recruits" now the level to which they recruit differs.  Some are more passive than others.  But the bottom line is there is a recruiting process at CWRU.

Before you badmouth Pat for taking statistics from a Government Website submitted by the University President, please check CWRU's football page to at least see that they actually recruit.

[DagarmanSpartan]

NCC,

I realize that that a formal recruiting "process" does exist, but as a practical matter, that's not how most of Case's athletes join their teams.  Most of the Case's football players, and other athletes, are "recruited" by being asked by the coaches if they want to come out, after they're already admitted as regular students.  Most (naturally, there are exceptions) are not formally recruited prior to regular admissions with football in mind.  Hell, I got calls from the football and wrestling coaches after I was admitted, and if I had indicated interest, then guess what, I would have been given at least a chance to come out, although I probably would have been cut (in the case of wrestling), or put on the JV team/benched (in the case of football) due to lack of talent.

MCDT,

I wasn't saying our renaisssance was brought about by an increase in nerds.  It was brought about by an increase in POTENTIAL ATHLETES, caused by record enrollment.

Naturally, at a school as nerdy as Case, no one is recruited purely to play football, and most students are too nerdy to be good at any sports.

But when you have an increased student body, you're more likely to find those exceptional students that happen to be better than most Case students at sports.

It's that increase in students that has driven our athletic renaissance, together with our improved facilities.

Pat,

Sorry for shouting.  But what bugs me is how you said you were "calling bull***" on me, when everything I posted was completely FACTUAL, and not "bull****."

Case HAS had an increase in enrollment in the last three years (a significant one; more than 600).  Case DOES have more than 3,200 full-time undergrads.  Case DOES hold tryouts in every sport except football, and in football, everyone is welcome to come out.  Most football players are "recruited" by being asked to come out by the coaches after having been admitted as regular students, not primarily as football players, or even prior to their admission on a regular competitive basis.  That's a FACT, and in that regard, Case's programs, exactly as I posted, and exactly CONTRARY to what you claimed, are run more or less like high school programs.

Just like in high school, you get cut if you're not good enough for any sport except football, and in football, if you're not any good, you either get put on the JV team, or sat on the bench.

No "bull****" there.  Simply statements of fact.

[Pat Coleman]

I have an e-mail in my inbox which begs to differ. You may hear from someone on this point.

[DagarmanSpartan]

If that's true, then things have changed a great deal since the early 90s.

[UAA Follower]

Though a simplification, for the most part this is how football teams in the UAA, and most of Division III for that matter, are assembled:

1) The football staff begins to assemble lists of potential recruits for the program. This is done largely through national data bases that compile everything from height, weight, 40-times, post-season honors, etc, and, most importantly for the UAA, grade point averages and board scores. For the UAA, what that means in large part is that the schools are competing for the same players since academic standards of admission are so similar. Besides data bases, coaches network with local high school coaches associations to identify possible recruits as well as glean what they can from newspapers and word of mouth. Once potential recruits are identified, coaches do their best within budget limitations to either visit the players at their high schools or at home and bombard them with letters and phone calls from coaches, players, past players and alumni. Time limits are crucial since most schools, especially those in the UAA, must get potential players to apply by admission deadlines. After the Divison I teams have had their pick and the Divsion I-AA  and D-II teams have taken what they can, the D-III teams invite recruits to campus to try to sell them on coming to their school. This usually happens in February and March. Final decisions by recruits can last all the way up until practice starts in August, assuming they have been admitted to the school.

2) Some potential recruits actually contact the coach and show interest in attending the school and playing football. Coaches will try to research the player though they can not stop them from applying and coming out for the team. On occasion, a gem of a player might end up in the program by being the first to contact the coach, rather than vice versa, but not usually.

3) Some players, though very few, will show up on a "walk on" basis. Few of these players will have the potential to impact the program. If they were any good to start with, they would have been previously identified.

Fact is, the coaching staff has a very good handle on who is going to suit up at summer practice before the first practice ever takes place. There is intense competition for players and no program could be competitive without the above described recruiting process.

I suspect that the only impact that increased enrollment at Case may have had is to somewhat increase the pool of athletes that the coach can recruit to the program. He still is going to have to pound the pavement to get the best players he can to attend Case and play football.

[ScotLass]

As a Woo Scot, I was so hoping all the Case football players were yanked out of Chemistry lab to join the team. But, alas I looked at the Case 2007 Media guide and noticed this:

"This past summer, the Spartans
welcomed their largest recruiting class
(51) in school history"

This would imply that just like Woo, players had to meet admission criteria but the coaches had contacted and recruited them to play football well before summer camp started. Since it's been 15 years since the early 90's, I was glad to see that Case, just like the real world, has apparently changed..........

[DagarmanSpartan]

Scot and UAA Follower,

I can tell you this much.

I wasn't on ANY national recruiting database when I was in high school football or wrestling.  I was too lousy at both sports to even be mentioned.

But guess what?

BOTH of those sports' coaches at Case called me at home after I had been admitted and asked me if I'd like to come out for the team.  They had seen that I played those sports on my application (they obviously had received that info from the admissions office), and decided to make me a "recruit," just as they undoubtedly did with every other admitted student that listed those sports on their applications.

I no doubt would have been cut from the wrestling team had I decided to go out for it, and probably would have been on the JV team and/or benched in football.  But nonetheless, if those coaches were talking to the likes of ME, then it's proof that they would more than likely talk to ANY admitted student in the hopes of building their teams.

And I know for a fact that in the early 90s, most teams at Case held open tryouts (though not football).  I personally knew people that tried out for sports there.

I knew lots of "walk ons" (if you can really call them that, because without athletic scholarships, pretty much everyone that plays sports at the DIII level would be considered a "walk on" by Division I standards) at Case; in nearly every sport.

As for Case's record recruiting classes in recent years, the explanation is simple (and it's one that I made earlier on this string).

Thanks to record freshman applications and larger than normal freshman classes in recent years, Case has a larger pool of potential athletes to be contacted than ever before, and as a consequence, Case has had larger than normal football recruiting classes.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning.  Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

I mean, things could have really changed over the last 15 years, (and believe me, a change like that at Case would have been RADICAL), but I seriously doubt it.

Hell, only 3-4 years ago, we had about HALF the number of players in the program that we do now.  In all likelihood, the unprecedented enrollment increases in the last 3-4 years have added to the potential talent pool.

[ScotLass]

As for Case's record recruiting classes in recent years, the explanation is simple (and it's one that I made earlier on this string).

Thanks to record freshman applications and larger than normal freshman classes in recent years, Case has a larger pool of potential athletes to be contacted than ever before, and as a consequence, Case has had larger than normal football recruiting classes.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning.  Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

I mean, things could have really changed over the last 15 years, (and believe me, a change like that at Case would have been RADICAL), but I seriously doubt it.

Hell, only 3-4 years ago, we had about HALF the number of players in the program that we do now.  In all likelihood, the unprecedented enrollment increases in the last 3-4 years have added to the potential talent pool.

It's not hard to understand your personal recollections of how things worked in the 90's. It's interesting and kind of fun.......BUT, we must let go of the past and open our minds to the truth of the 21st century.

The problem is that your theory that nothing much has changed except increased enrollment and therefore Case football has a larger pool of incoming students to contact about joining the football team just doesn't wash. Part of coaches jobs in 2007 is to spend significant time recruiting, all year long. Coaches at the D3 level aren't looking at the kids that are in national recruiting databases, those kids are for the most part headed to higher level programs. D3 coaches are out there at high school games, in contact with high school coaches, calling kids who are still undecided about what college they will attend. They are inviting potential recruits to games and using current players to give tours. In 2007, coaches expend as much if not more energy recruiting than they do putting together a game plan.

This process in 2007 explains why a school like Hiram which has had no change in their consistently small # of enrolled students (about 800) has had an increase in the # of football recruits......the coaches did a great job of recruiting kids to decide to come to Hiram.

So, I totally understand and appreciate your memories of the early 90's. Now you understand the process in 2007.

[BDTartan]

Hey MajorSpartan, I'm going to rock the mic one time and let you in on a little secret.  Pat shoots straight from the hip and he generally has reliable information to back him up....I learned that lesson last year.  Pat isn't here to belittle you or make sport of anybody.  I am sure he just wanted to correct a gross misnomer you were putting out there.  I honestly believe YOUR story, but alas, that was 15 years ago.  15 years ago, nobody would have given a crap if the NCAA Division III National Championship was televised, but now, now its on ESPN and I know alot of people who tune in to see what DIII is all about.  You could say that DIII has stepped up its game a bit with the help of teams like Mount and the other big boys year in and year out.  Oh sure, maybe the coaches identify a couple students who got admitted, AFTER they have most likely gone back and checked into these potential student athletes.  I rather doubt that any coach at any level these days would just have an open tryout.  The fact that you relate SUCCESS to this is outrageous.  You think that all of these walk-ons and late-comers are the real reason for CWRU's recent success in their sports programs??  I find that laughable.  That would mean that all of the kids that the coaches recruited were a wasted effort by those coaches.  I mean honestly, you make it sound like CWRU doesn't have to get out there and recruit.

Mr. Ypsi........I chose my words wrong on that statement.  I was trying to convey that there are probably many similar situations for prospective student athletes and the majority of DIII schools based on the fact that unless your Mount in football or a powerhouse in any other sport, you're going to be at the bottom of the list of schools for these kids.  So, for the majority, I am going to assume that recruiting trips are similar to the one Lackner took to our area and discovered my brother.

My final words: I'm not going to run any numbers or any crap like that.  This argument is going nowehere in my eyes so I figured I would throw my two cents in and move on to wishing the Tartans good luck today at Gesling versus Allegheny.  GO TARTANS!

[ADL70]

Maj

To further burst you bubble, here's an article from The Observer on recruiting.

http://observer.case.edu/Archives/Volume_39/Issue_21/Story_1556/

As you said the size of the football squad has nearly doubled, while enrollment, even using the most favorable stats, has only increased about 50%.  If football's increase were only due to more students, the team would only be expected to increase 50%.

[Pat Coleman]

I thought Major Spartan had realized the error of his ways, but apparently not. So I'm going to share a line from an e-mail a Case insider sent me yesterday afternoon.

The increase in athletic numbers and wins has come from our AD getting rid of coaches who would not recruit and replacing them with coaches who hustled and brought in both larger numbers and better talent.

Well, also this line.

I feel he is embarrassing our program and university and I wish to set him straight. 

[ADL70]

Well Diles has only been AD since April 2005, and there have been no changes in the full-time (there's that phrase again) football staff since then.  And one of the criticisms from the tennis team about their coach, who has been retained and given a vote of confidence by Diles, was her refusal to recruit.

But the Observer article pretty well should put this issue to bed.

[Wizardman]

Plus, if Maj's ideas on recruiting were true for every school in 2006 and 2007, I highly doubt Carnegie Mellon would've went 10-0.

[plaidfanatic]

I can only speak from an experience of one but my son was heavily recruited by all the top nerdy schools including the Ivys.  it pretty much followed the pattern described above.  he was recruited in the summer and encouraged to apply.  once accepted, he was invited for a visit.  He ended up obviously at CMU but it was obvious from the questions asked early on by Lackner, he had a real good idea what candidates had to look like academically on paper to be accepted by his institution and it was those hs football players who he recruited.  When these coaches called they were interested in the same football stats D1 schools were but also as importantly SAT scores and GPA and how many AP classes was he taking.  For D3 coaches, they have to balance good athletics and good academics with no money to put on the table.  it makes their recruiting position very difficult.  And, all D3 schools are not equal.  The pool is smaller for a Case or CMU or MIT because it is harder to get in those schools than some of the other D3 school.  Makes you admire all the boys playing D3 even more when you remember they are doing it strictly for the love of the game.   It certainly would be easier for everyone of these boys just to take their classes.

[ADL70]

OK then, let's play football!!!

Go Spartans, Tartans, Bears, and Maroons!!!