FB: Middle Atlantic Conference

[Lyco80]

And Lyco80 - in response to your question.. Susquehanna apparently applied for membership to the Centenial Conference and were turned down.
[quote/]

To paraphrase Bart Simpson, "It wasn't me."

I never asked that question, however, it is an interesting bit of grist for the mill.

Thanks.

ATB

[Warren Thompson]

Lyco80:

Given the "dearth" of D2 teams in Ohio, why would Mt. Union move down to that level when they can regularly take D3 titles with relative -- and frequent -- ease?

Moving to a lower division such as D2 might also carry with it certain risks and difficulties. There are D2 venues that could make life miserable for MUC, despite the latter's undeniable success in D3. (A case in point, though not an exactly identical one, is Westminster [PA]. In NAIA D2, they were a championship-calibre outfit; however, when they moved to NCAA D2, they became just another also-ran and took some fairly bad beatings. Since moving up to NCAA D3, they are again very competitive.)

[Pat Coleman]

If a school could move solely football down a level, perhaps it would. But since that is not permitted in football or basketball, it's pretty much a moot point. That's a lot of outlay for the other 20 or so sports just to accomodate football.

[Lyco80]

So there it is at last - money.  Most things in life come down to power and control, and ego if you prefer.  Money is often just the externality of these internal dimensions.

So, MUC, cannot move up to D2 in football unless the entire school moves up as well.  And since D2 carries a certain level of scholarship commitments per each sport this would be expensive. 

So the bottom line is simply the bottom line?

Strange, I always thought I had heard of other schools playing different levels of competition for other sports.  Perhaps things have changed or I have been misinformed.

Regardless, as in my opening statement I can see that rather than address an admitted imbalance in this area the NCAA, D3 Football and MUC prefer the status quo and therefore unless and until someone builds a powerhouse that can effectively challenge MUC on the field with play and off the field with the caliber of recruits the situation will remain unchanged.  Interesting.

I would have thought better of the system and the people involved.

Thanks for clarifying the issue Pat, Warren and others.

ATB

[Pat Coleman]

So the bottom line is simply the bottom line?

Sometimes it actually works out that way, yeah.

[Pat Coleman]

Strange, I always thought I had heard of other schools playing different levels of competition for other sports.  Perhaps things have changed or I have been misinformed.

To follow up, it is permitted in some sports. But I specifically cited football and basketball (ahem, the money sports) for a reason. Hockey is a sport where several D-III and D-II schools play a sport at Division I. It's happened in field hockey, soccer, wrestling, baseball. But it is not permitted in football -- that's why schools like Iona, Georgetown, St. Peter's, Dayton, and the like were forced to leave Division III football more than a decade ago.

[Warren Thompson]

Pat's correct. E.g., this season D3 Rochester Tech has begun playing D1 ice hockey.
As well, D3 Colorado College and St. Lawrence have long been D1 in the sport.

[skunks_sidekick]

It's odd Lyco80, you seemt to make valid points, and seem well informed, but inevitably you always reach some negative spin regarding Mount Union and their dominance in D-III football.  Why is that?

In my opinion, the culprit of this outlandish, and excessive dominance by Mount Union is Larry Kehres.  What is wrong with him?  Doesn't he want to move on to a higher level?  What does he have to prove? 

To answer those questions, he has been offered one lower level D-I head coaching job at Kent State (he turned it down), and was considered for the Princeton job (he wasn't offered the job).  He has been approached about various OC jobs, but was not interested.  He thoroughly enjoys coaching the quality of kids he gets at Mount Union. The true D-III student/athelete that plays for the love of the game, and to get a great college education.  In all the years Larry Kehres has coached, only 3 kids that played for him didn't graduate.

The fact of the matter is, Larry Kehres just does D-III football better than anyone else.  It is a testament to his vision, knowledge, and work ethic.  If I wanted to compete against Mount Union consistently, I would hire a guy that played or coached under Kehres.   

Again, just one Mount Union (and Larry Kehres) fan's opinion.

[Lyco80]

It's odd Lyco80, you seemt to make valid points, and seem well informed, but inevitably you always reach some negative spin regarding Mount Union and their dominance in D-III football.  Why is that?

In my opinion, the culprit of this outlandish, and excessive dominance by Mount Union is Larry Kehres.  What is wrong with him?  Doesn't he want to move on to a higher level?  What does he have to prove? 

To answer those questions, he has been offered one lower level D-I head coaching job at Kent State (he turned it down), and was considered for the Princeton job (he wasn't offered the job).  He has been approached about various OC jobs, but was not interested.  He thoroughly enjoys coaching the quality of kids he gets at Mount Union. The true D-III student/athelete that plays for the love of the game, and to get a great college education.  In all the years Larry Kehres has coached, only 3 kids that played for him didn't graduate.

The fact of the matter is, Larry Kehres just does D-III football better than anyone else.  It is a testament to his vision, knowledge, and work ethic.  If I wanted to compete against Mount Union consistently, I would hire a guy that played or coached under Kehres.   

Again, just one Mount Union (and Larry Kehres) fan's opinion.

Thanks for the compliments, I think.

I have nothing but admiration for the success of MUC particularly since it is affiliated with the United Methodist Church.

However, their overwhelming success both in conference and in the NCAA playoff system put them in the center of my bulls eye.  Parity is a wonderful thing - I am a dyed in the wool Eagles fan - as it makes sport what it is - a chance for the other guy.  But let's be reasonable - besides the occasional Pacific Lutheran, Linfield team etc - the Stagg Bowl has been the province of MUC since the evolution of the modern playoff system.  I do not see anything on the horizon to alter this circumstance.  It really is just that simple.

I agree with you about hiring a Kehres disciple - but how would he compete with the draw that MUC has for talent?

The fact that Kmic - who is a phenom - and was willing to sit for a couple of seasons - despite having talent that other scholarship offering programs could use - chose MUC makes it clear that like a super tanker - it will take years for D3 football to turn around the current situation.  What can I say?  I prefer level playing fields - so sue me.

Appreciate the dialogue very much and your willingness to engage.  It is a shame that many people will log on to these pages and then refuse to contribute their thoughts or opinions.  It seems to me that both are vital and informative.

Happy New Year to you and all the ring-wearing Purple Raiders now and in the future.

ATB

[butkus20]

quote]I never asked that question, however, it is an interesting bit of grist for the mill

sorry lyco80- it was warren's question.  It seems like you're still pretty tied into Lyco's program, they planning on staying in the MAC and trying to get back to their level of usual excellence, or are they gonna fold up like good ol SU.

[Jonny Utah]

My understanding was that you can have 2 d1 sports if you want the rest of your sports to be d3 or something like that.

[Pat Coleman]

But NOT football or basketball.

[radiomike]

My understanding was that you can have 2 d1 sports if you want the rest of your sports to be d3 or something like that.

And it is two sports, one for the men, one for the women. So, you can only take one up for the men's side.

[Jonny Utah]

My understanding was that you can have 2 d1 sports if you want the rest of your sports to be d3 or something like that.

And it is two sports, one for the men, one for the women. So, you can only take one up for the men's side.

Yea but I think you can go two men and two womens sports though......

[radiomike]

To follow up, it is permitted in some sports. But I specifically cited football and basketball (ahem, the money sports) for a reason. Hockey is a sport where several D-III and D-II schools play a sport at Division I. It's happened in field hockey, soccer, wrestling, baseball. But it is not permitted in football -- that's why schools like Iona, Georgetown, St. Peter's, Dayton, and the like were forced to leave Division III football more than a decade ago.

Left off the list is water polo, and some of the multi-divisional teams sports, such as fencing, rifle, gymnastics, skiing, Men's Volleyball.

Hobart and Johns Hopkins has its Men's Lacrosse Programs at Division I. JHU also has its Women's program at Division I.

However, Johns Hopkins' and Hobart's Football programs are both DIII and non-scholarship. And, so is Hobart's Lacrosse program. RIT's newly elevated hockey program likewise, will also be non-scholarship. You can take two teams up, but you have to play by the tougher of the D1 or DIII rules that govern that sport.

Hopkins Lax teams, St. Lawrence, Clarkson's, and RPI's hockey teams do offer scholarships, due to a gradfather clause in the NCAA's rules, that was reaffirmed by the DIII President's last year, and will be very tough to change. So, if you want to go DI in hoops and/or in football, you have to take all the sports up.