FB: Middle Atlantic Conference

[SUADC]

Lyco80

Thanks for the recap...nice write-up!  While glad for the win, I certainly don't like to hear that WU wasn't very respectful in the celebration...that's not good to hear.  As much as we have beat the h@ll out of each other over the years, I thinks we've both earned the respect from each other that we deserve...
I was wondering if you could elaborate more on the turnovers(by both teams) and how they affected the game and the score...Unfortunately I was not near a computer on Sat., and couldn't listen to the game.  I was shocked to see WU had 7 turnovers, yet was able to still (even keep the game close) win...

Thanks!

I think that overcoming 7 turnovers account for a lot, it proves that this team has talent to win games when making mistakes and shows that this team knows how to stay together when facing adversity, even though they proved that against Lebanon Vally. Nevertheless, how long can they keep that up, it may not be the case come Week 11.

I still think that Widener is a great team and deserves more credit, the MAC is tough.

[Lyco80]

Thanks for the props bman.

Lycoming missed two field goals - one blocked; one botched; that were inside the ten yard line.  Matt Atkinson dropped a clear touchdown pass on the two yard line.  A Widener wide receiver dropped a clear touchdown pass without a defender within ten yards and inside the ten.  It was that sort of game. 

The defenses played their hearts out and Widener's offense was on fire passing like mad.  The first half they played lots of stretch plays with passes to the flats - I thought trying to tire out the Warriors and set them up for the inevitable Q-back draw - which worked to great effect later in the game when they lost some confidence in their passing game.

The turnovers were mostly attributable to sterling d-back or linebacker play - reading the pass and undercutting it or staying tight with the receiver and leaping at the last second.  It was an incredible game in many ways. 

Funny, the six points on the missed, chip shot field goals, proved very costly as the final tally was 5 points. 

This is why we love football so much - it is fast and unpredictable.

Thanks for asking.

ATB

[DelcoD3]

What a tough loss for Lyco. But congrats to Widener, they did play till the very end when it looked like they were trying to give the game away most of the day. Widener's D had as much to do with this win as their offense.

For the turnovers, 2 fumbles and 5 picks by the Lyco D. One of the INTs was thrown by Widener's backup/wildcat QB, I don't think you saw him after that. You can credit the Lyco D for the picks. Like Lyco80 said a few nice plays by the secondary and LBs. Lyco lost 2 DBs in the first half to injury and they surely missed them in the 2nd half. But injuries are a part of the game.

For the 3rd down call on Lycos last drive, that's a tough decision. In hindsight a run and taking another 30 seconds off the clock looks like it would have been the better decsion. But I guess they were being aggressive - it was 3 and 7 and if you get the first down the Widener offense doesn't get the ball back at all.

Again Lyco just didn't capitalize. Hold an offense that averages almost 60 to 28. Force 7 turnovers plus a 4th down stop of Widener when Widener went for it around their own 22 yard line (horrible decision by Widener by the way)! All of that has to lead to more than 23 points.

So Lyco needs to win out and root for Del Val. Anybody know what happens with a 3 way tie? I believe the MAC recognizes all 3 as co-champs, but what about tie breakers for the AQ playoff bid?

[gordonmann]

DelcoD3:

I'm told that the first useful tiebreaker to decide the AQ in a three-way tie between Del Val, Widener and Lycoming at 9-1 is point differential between the three squads in their games against each other. 

So Lycoming is +5 from a 10-point win over Del Val and a 5-point loss to Widener.  Widener is +5 and Del Val -10.

If Lycoming wins out, Del Val wins its next two and Widener wins its next two, then Del Val and Widener's game would determine who gets the AQ.  In that situation...

* Widener wins the title outright and the AQ by beating Del Val.
* Del Val shares the title with Lycoming and Widener by beating Widener.  The Aggies can win the AQ by beating Widener by more than 15.
* Lycoming shares the title with Del Val and Widener if Del Val beats Widener.  The Warriors win the AQ if Del Val beats Widener by less than 15.

If Del Val wins by exactly 15, then it moves to the next tiebreaker (whatever that is).  That's my understanding at least.

Of course, there's still work for all three teams to do.  Widener and Del Val have tough roads before the season finale.  Albright and Leb Val can play themselves back into the mix. Just about every team can impact the final outcome of the title race.

Should be a fun three week stretch.

[DelcoD3]

Thanks Pat and Gordon.

Yeah I was just looking at the MAC schedule and lots of football left, including a big day this Saturday with the top 6 all matching up against each other.

Lyco has to get over the letdown and face a Wilkes team that always plays them tough.

Widener/Albright - can Widener have a letdown coming off such a dramatic win and maybe be looking ahead to Del Val?

Leb Val/Del Val - maybe Leb Val feels overlooked a little?

[Lyco80]

While I am grateful for those who posted the tie-breaker protocols it makes my head hurt to consider all the permutations - sure wish they had tackled #5 as he sprinted across the field in Williamsport while time ran out on the game.  So much simpler - sigh.

ATB

[dlippiel]

Dlip thinks the MAC is a very solid conference this season with some excellent football having been played. Widener just keeps winning no matter what. To beat a team like Lyco having turned the ball over really says something. The few times the Pride have clicked on all cylinders they have been scary. If they face a top notch team and turn the ball over 7 times forget it. However, if they play turnover free football and that offense goes ape **** who knows? Maybe this team can make some noise in the playoffs. ...Yet if they lose to Del Val this thought of them maybe being "really" good will be all for not.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The other real concern for Widener against "a top notched team" (and wouldn't Lycoming and others in the MAC count?) would be their defense. They give up too many points sometimes against teams they shouldn't. While I realize at one point in the second half against Stevenson it wasn't the starters on the field, but even before that, Stevenson found a way to start moving down the field on the Pride - even in the first half. I am not saying Stevenson wins that game, but it was the Mustangs defense that allowed that game to get out of hand (giving up just one big play on every scoring drive). Widener didn't adjust well to Stevenson's check-with-me offense and adjustments... when Widener showed a run defense, Stevenson would check out to a pass and usually convert. If Widener showed pass defense, Stevenson would check out and always convert on the run. Widener needs to tighten up on defense (and no, blow out to Wilkes, doesn't count as a "top-notch team") if they will live up to their ranking and a deep run in the tournament.

Now the offense for Widener is another story - that thing is dangerous when they are all on the same page. But that offense has shown to struggle as well against decent defenses.

[WUDLINE]

D-Mac
Sorry but I feel I must point out a few flaws in your post

Not really sure about WU's offense showing any struggles. Their low output for the year is 28 pts. Against a very good Lyco D. Furthermore, they are averaging 55pts a game. I don't believe that offensive output would fit into the struggling against decent defenses category. Unless you feel Lyco is the only decent defense they have faced.

Secondly - The Wu defense has only allowed two teams to score over 20 this season. Leb Val scored 37 and Lyco hit 23. While also posting 2 shutouts. They are giving up an average of 14.7 pts. per game.

As for your comments concerning the Stevenson game.

Not sure how confused WU was with the Stevenson "check with me offense" since the score at the half was 42 - 13. With Stevenson's final score of the day coming with 3 minutes remaining against  WU's 3rd team defense. I think the only thing  confusing that day was the coaches fake punt, fall to the ground, seizure (I think you refered to it as a dance move) play.

WU may have some flaws. Both ball security and at times  their running game have not been great. You can also question the overall strength of their opponents to this point. However, I think your points and references to the Stevenson game may be a bit of a reach, and either clouded by you affiliation to Stevenson or dislike for Widener.

[dlippiel]

Dlip was not putting down any MAC teams or any other ER teams for that matter. When saying "top notched" he was refering to the likes of MUC, UMHB, Linfield, etc. D3 teams that are or have been on that other tier, that top tier of D3 that an ER team has not reached in quite some time. So no, dlip would not consider Lyco or any other ER team in that tier. His hopes (as they are every year) is that some ER team will break inti that tier. Dlip's previous post was thinking out liyd if The Pride could possibly be that team. We seem to agree, probably not, but like in all other years dlip likes to have a tad bit of hope.

[Lyco80]

Widener reminds me a little bit like Brett Favre - a Mississippi riverboat gambler - always relying on talent and believing in luck but willing to gamble even when it is 4th down on your own 22.  That sort of impulsive behavior eventually leads to your undoing because sooner or later the ball does not bounce your way and you run into a team that is just a wee bit hotter than you are.  They overcame great odds against a LVC team inextricably passing into double coverage twice while ahead and came out on top against Lycoming who did not score TDs in the red zone and botched field goals to put the game away truly capitalizing on turnovers.  Great teams, not just good teams, will not make those mistakes.  If Widener is going to win the MAC they will have to defeat a very determined and much improved DVC team and then re-invent themselves somewhat for the playoffs if they are going to go deep.  They are a hugely talented offensive juggernaut of a machine but must make better decisions when the playing field gets elevated to another plane.  Just how I see it after watching the game and reflecting.

Go Warriors - Go Aggies!

ATB

[bman]

Lyco

They've been like that since the Zwaan days...before that Widener was typically a very conservative team...that lived with a dominating D...

DLIP

I agree...it's a stretch to believe that any East team(MAC included) can win a game against the top 5...but as always I hope I'm wrong...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

D-Mac
Sorry but I feel I must point out a few flaws in your post

Not really sure about WU's offense showing any struggles. Their low output for the year is 28 pts. Against a very good Lyco D. Furthermore, they are averaging 55pts a game. I don't believe that offensive output would fit into the struggling against decent defenses category. Unless you feel Lyco is the only decent defense they have faced.

Secondly - The Wu defense has only allowed two teams to score over 20 this season. Leb Val scored 37 and Lyco hit 23. While also posting 2 shutouts. They are giving up an average of 14.7 pts. per game.

As for your comments concerning the Stevenson game.

Not sure how confused WU was with the Stevenson "check with me offense" since the score at the half was 42 - 13. With Stevenson's final score of the day coming with 3 minutes remaining against  WU's 3rd team defense. I think the only thing  confusing that day was the coaches fake punt, fall to the ground, seizure (I think you refered to it as a dance move) play.

WU may have some flaws. Both ball security and at times  their running game have not been great. You can also question the overall strength of their opponents to this point. However, I think your points and references to the Stevenson game may be a bit of a reach, and either clouded by you affiliation to Stevenson or dislike for Widener.

I may be "affiliated" with Stevenson, but that doesn't mean I have lost my impartiality as an observer. That happens to be the game I saw in person. I also have no dislike for Widener... I was pretty impressed with them and have followed their success for years.

In my post I admit that the Stevenson offense was going up against the reserves at some point in the second half, however Stevenson did have a 5 play-76 yard drive for a touchdown in the first half. Stevenson also had some long drives deep into Widener territory that didn't result in scores thanks to turnovers or failed fourth down conversions (one 6 play-65 yard drive comes to mind).

I also didn't indicate "confusion" on Widener's defense... I stated that they didn't adjust well and showed their hand far too much. Too many times they showed run... saw Stevenson change the play (it isn't that subtle) and stayed in the defense only to have Stevenson pass for a first down or big gainer. Then when they showed pass... saw Stevenson change the play and stayed in the same defense... Stevenson ran it down their throat for a big gain. They have to shore up the defense a bit to have success against far better competition. And I also agree that their running games is a major question mark - however, Widener's passing game and at times 5-wide set-up allows them to overcome that flaw many times because a blitz will never get to the QB in time for him to dump off in the slot or the defense has to quickly adjust to a major spread look out of a no-huddle... that is good stuff to be sure.

My point about Stevenson is if I saw flaws in the Widener defense in that game... what does that mean for the Pride against far stiffer competition. Widener has already had a dog fight and needed some miraculous plays to get a win over Lebanon Valley (who, for comparison, Stevenson took down to the wire) and some things to go their way late to get past Lycoming. dlip has a point that the top of the MAC doesn't compare with Mount Union, UMHB, Linfield and maybe with Wesley, St. Thomas and others. So, if Widener is showing issues with MAC teams... a deep playoff run is a major question mark. Even teams like Salisbury and Johns Hopkins in this region may be their Achilles heal.

[dlippiel]

Too many times they showed run... saw Stevenson change the play (it isn't that subtle) and stayed in the defense

DM this is hilarious, dlip almost spit up his oatmeal +k!

[WUDLINE]

Bman -
Actually the reliance on the big play offense and passing game was put in place when Bill Cubit and to an extent G.A. Mangus brought a unique combination of the Wing T run game and the Florida passing game to Widener in the mid 90's. During these years Zwann was actually the D coordinator for Widener before taking over as the head coach and OC in 1997 when Cubit left for Western Michigan.  They really have not been conservative on offense since the days of Bill Manlove.

Dlip –

I agree with your statement about both the MAC and ER. It has been a long time since the MAC and many ER teams have been to the levels of MUC, Wesley, UMHB or the Wisconsin's, and I really do not think anyone in the east let alone the MAC is there yet.  But at least it appears that the conference is getting stronger again.

D Mac-
I must admit I rather enjoy this witty banter as it reminds me of the old days on the MAC board. You're correct, your affiliation with Stevenson is not what caused me to question your impartiality as an observer. It was your attempt to justify and rationalize the previously mentioned fake punt attempt in the WU game. Furthermore, I just felt it would be accurate to point out the statistical inconsistency in your argument.
Lastly, you stated," Stevenson did have a 5 play-76 yard drive for a touchdown in the first half. Stevenson also had some long drives deep into Widener territory that didn't result in scores thanks to turnovers or failed fourth down conversions (one 6 play-65 yard drive comes to mind)."

Not sure citing one touchdown drive in a half of football, or referencing drives that ended due to turnovers and failed fourth down attempts, speak to a struggling defense.  I also was at the game, as I am on a weekly basis, and did not notice WU having any issues. It appeared to me that they were simply remaining in their base defensive calls throughout the game while relying on their offensive ability and Stevenson's offensive mistakes.  Lastly, Not sure how a defense shows "run."