FB: Conference of New England

[fulbakdad]

Now I'm biased?  That's kind of funny.  Guess i'm not allowed to state my views from actual attendance at games but you can state your on what you've heard from others?  Those arguements don't hold up in my world.  They're called hearsay..

I will bow to the Board Elites.

[pg04]

Well you come out of nowhere b!tching about Salve and delve into a non-sequitar about NESCAC team receiving 3 points. At the same time you somehow mention Salisbury implying you think because they lost to Wesley they should fall below Salve. We have watched many posters whine on here about respect only to have them get trounced when they play a playoff tier team.

[pg04]

Anyway, I don't care enough to continue this any further. On to more important Sunday stuff. Good luck to Salve the rest of the season.

[pg04]

Oh, one more thing. When implying you were biased, I don't think your assessment of the NESCAC, having actually seen them is biaser, but that you are probably overvaluing Salve. I am no board elite, just been here long enough to see posts that complain about not being in the top 25.

[Pat Coleman]

I think people close to the Salve Regina program don't understand how far it is from the NEFC to the elite in Division III. It's a long, long distance. We give tons of credit to Salve for scheduling with some ... well, balls and playing a team from a power conference and a contender in a middle-of-the-pack conference. But now you get into the rest of the conference schedule, and there's almost no way to gain ranking from these games.

As a visual reminder, here's what the rest of the NEFC has out of conference this year, along with our preseason ranking, out of 239 teams:

Framingham State: NO non-conference opponents.
Mass Maritime: No. 134 SUNY-Maritime (loss)
Bridgewater State: No. 92 Springfield (win)
Worcester State: No. 238 Anna Maria (win), No. 153 WPI (win)
Fitchburg State: No. 235 Becker (loss)
Coast Guard: No. 141 Merchant Marine (loss)
Westfield State: NO non-conference opponents
Maine Maritime: No. 238 Anna Maria (loss)

Western New England: No. 133 Norwich (loss)
Curry: No. 153 WPI (loss)
Mass-Dartmouth: No. 158 Mount Ida (loss)
Plymouth State: No. 176 Castleton State (loss), No. 158 Mount Ida (loss)
Nichols: NO non-conference opponents
Endicott: No. 176 Castleton State (win)
MIT: No. 235 Becker (win)

Total non-conference games against teams not in the ECFC: Six
Best win other than Salve's two wins: Bridgewater State over Springfield

Salve Regina has done all it can -- it scheduled two Top 80 opponents and beat them both. But nobody else in the conference is stepping up. All Salve can do is win out, go 11-0. I would guess that by the end of the regular season, Salve will probably drift up into the rankings. Even Curry never got a regular season ranking in its run of conference titles. It didn't get ranked before winning an NCAA playoff game.

It is VERY difficult to make the Top 25 in Division III. There are twice as many Division III teams as Division I FBS teams, so the math means Top 25 spots are twice as hard to come by. Fulbakdad -- I know you have spent your time watching the Midwest Conference, which is better than the NEFC but also a bottom-tier league nine times out of 10.

[fulbakdad]

I agree with the MWC Pat.  It's been fun watching the likes of Tanney and the Linebacker from Knox, Hendricks though.

[Jonny Utah]

I'm curious.  Have you watched any NESCAC games?  While they would probably do well against the lowere NEFC teams, i don't believe they would against the upper ones.  They aren't as deep.  But we'll never know because they never will play out of thier conference.  Again,  this isn't my conference.  I just watch cuz of those i met while on recruiting visits.  I watched i believe 6 NESCAC games on our venture.

Additionally,  Salve is a much better team this year than they were two years ago when we were looking.  I guess we'll see how they do in the future.  I just get very frustrated with many posters on this site.  At times there are those that think there are only a handful of good teams.

I watch a lot of nescac and NEFC games.  The nescac is a much better football conference from top to bottom.  They get all state kids fom the northeast while the NEFC does not. 

[fulbakdad]

I totally disagree.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'll assume that you "totally disagree" with the NESCAC/NEFC comparison and that you're not STILL persisting with the argument that Salve deserves to be ranked now.  If you still really believe that, I'll repeat Pat's statement from above:

"I think people close to the Salve Regina program don't understand how far it is from the NEFC to the elite in Division III. It's a long, long distance."

Salve has done a great thing by scheduling (and winning) those games against Union and Montclair State.  At the same time, you must recognize that neither Union nor Montclair State is close to being a Top 25-caliber team right now, and Salve didn't exactly blow the doors off of either one.

Pat makes a great point that to it's very hard to be ranked in the Top 25 in Division III (and, truth be told, our rankings are still pretty inaccurate because we overvalue teams with good records vs. teams with multiple losses in really tough conferences - middle-of-the-pack WIAC, MIAC, and OAC teams often would destroy 9-1 and 8-2 teams from lesser conferences).  To earn a ranking you have to either a) beat a current Top 25 team or b) make some noise in the playoffs because, with so many teams, there just isn't enough data to adequately compare teams across regions and conferences that never compete afainst one another.  We have to include our past preconceptions about the relative strength of conferences until something actually PROVES otherwise.

As for your earlier statement:

"At times there are those that think there are only a handful of good teams."

The Division III playoff results of the last 5-7 years generally support the position that in a given season there are only a handful of GREAT teams (generally UWW, Mount, UMHB, Wesley), a few more "very good" teams (examples being Linfield, North Central, Wabash, a few of the St. John Fisher teams) and then ANOTHER step down to the next echelon of playoff teams - and those "third-echelon" teams have often annihiliated the NEFC champ in the playoffs, with the exception of 2007-08 Curry.  That speaks to Pat's above argument that there's SUCH a long way from the top of the NEFC to the top of Division III that it's laughable to even argue that an NEFC team should be ranked until it has either won a playoff game or beaten a Top 25 opponent.  Arguing that a 4-0 NEFC team that hasn't won a conference title or playoff game (and, in fact, lost TWO games to fellow NEFC opponents last year) should be ranked lies somewhere between "willful ignorance" and "outright foolishness."

[Pat Coleman]

... there just isn't enough data to adequately compare teams across regions and conferences that never compete afainst one another.

Especially when a conference actively avoids playing other conferences.

[Yanks 99]

... there just isn't enough data to adequately compare teams across regions and conferences that never compete afainst one another.

Especially when a conference actively avoids playing other conferences.

To add to ExTartainPlayer and Pat...there is enough data out there to be completely suspect of the NEFC.  It is called a 2-12 record in the NCAA playoffs as a league...where in the twelve games that they lost it was by an average of almost 24 points per game.  My guess is that it would be higher if we went back and took a look at how many points were scored during garbage time in the 4th quarter when the games weren't close.

Seriously...besides Curry's two wins against Wick and Ithaca in consecutive years in the playoffs (only to get destroyed the following week by 31 to Fisher in 2007 and by 42 to Cortland in 2008)...who else has ANYONE in the entire NEFC ever beaten that is of note?  Like most of us have said...good job Salve scheduling and beating Union and Montclair State this year.  But these guys are not even above .500.  You cannot possibly expect to be ranked nationally...hell even regionally...when you have never, ever, won a league title or have a win against a single team on your scheudle with a record above .500.

[Frank Rossi]

Coach Delong fron Springfield gave us a good discussion concerning New England recruiting and the challenges being encountered during his interview on "In the HuddLLe" last night.  It's worth the listen (around the 0:30 mark, give or take).  Choose the 9/23/12 show at http://inthehuddlle.com -- we always appreciate his insight.

[fulbakdad]

And Salve continues to roll.  Pretty convincing win against WNEC.

[Frank Rossi]

And Salve continues to roll.  Pretty convincing win against WNEC.

Wishing Salve nothing but the best down the stretch.

[Upstate]

And Salve continues to roll.  Pretty convincing win against WNEC.

Ah yes, that powerhouse WNEC that lost to Norwich who just lost to Mt. Ida....