Top 25 rankings

[Pat Coleman]

Not really sure where to post this, so I'll post it here.  While looking at the QOWI numbers, I was a bit curious as to how UMHB and Wittenberg--both two loss teams--were ranked so highly in the QOWI.  I did the math, and unless I'm wrong, this is what I come up with for both teams:

UMHB
07  L  @ CNU (.778)
13 W  @ SRSU (.625)
12 W vs. TLU (.556)
11 W  @ McM (.333)
14 W vs. HSU (.875)
13 W  @ LC (.500)
10 W vs. MC (.444)
06 L  vs. UW-W (1.000)
09 W  @ ETBU (.300)
------------------------------------
95 total points/9 games = 10.55 as opposed to 10.778

Wittenberg
07 L  @ Capital (.889)
12 W vs. Alma (.556)
15 W @ Wooster (.778)
10 W vs. Earlham (.333)
14 W vs. Wabash (.778)
01 L  @ Ohio Wesleyan (.300)
13 W @ Oberlin (.556)
12 W vs. Allegheny (.556)
-------------------------------------------
84 points/8 games = 10.5 as opposed to 10.750

Statistically, I think it's [almost] impossible for a two loss team to have a QOWI than an undefeated team, and unusual that they would have a QOWI higher than that many one-loss teams.

ETBU is .333 in-region -- Ouachita Baptist is not in D-III and is not a regional opponent. UMHB gets 11 for that.

Similarly, OWU is .333 in-region -- Catholic is not a regional game for them. Witt gets 3 for that.

[cawcdad]

Whitworth finally played a defcent team, beating a ranked team on the road, and was rewarded.

It may be just semantics, but Whitworth won on the road against a ranked team. They sure didn't beat Linfield.

[Pat Coleman]

Whatever. You guys can whine and play that game if you like but the result on the field is counted by total points.

[desertcat1]

Pat ,
If you were at the game ( oh that's right you have never been to the catsdome)  even you would have seen that the cats controlled both sides of the line ..   
85yd.  to 329 yds.

but could not hang on to the  ball... They therefore did not get beat in the game they turned over the game to the rats. Hence WON the game..

I thought you were a semantics man for sure .

  Don't forget to comb your hair this year for T.V. 

Keep up the good work 

Go cats

[Pat Coleman]

Chip ... shoulder ... blinding ... you.

Hasn't your son asked you to stop posting yet? I know we've gotten requests from Linfield to remove you.

[downtown48]

Wow!

[cawcdad]

If you think it is whining Pat, so be it. I was making a distinction that as a player and a coach I have been acutely aware of. On more than one occasion I have let my teams know that although they got the win, they dodged a bullet because they got out played. I have also had to console teams that came up on the short end of the score despite controlling a game. Such is the nature of athletics and sports. I congratulated Whitworth and answerd some questions with stats. No whining here.

[pineconefan]

Linfield was given the gift of the ball at the Whitworth 16 with 2 minutes to go.  A championship team punches the ball into the endzone.  Linfield went four and out and lost the ball on downs. 

It just isn't the Cats' year this year.  Afterall, the NWC is still too strong year to year to let Linfield do what MUC has done to the OAC! 

[cawcdad]

You get no argument from me.

[desertcat1]

Chip ... shoulder ... blinding ... you.

Hasn't your son asked you to stop posting yet? I know we've gotten requests from Linfield to remove you.

Pat :   NO , 



I have not broken YOUR rules for this to happen ?   So why would he? Do you think he reads this (cr_p )  stuff???  It's only a posting board come on .


Just because  we don't see eye to eye . I know it's your
ball and ball game and i have stayed within YOUR rules ...    
 
No    chip here buddy ,  I have offered to buy the first round any time you get to a cat game . 


Take it all with a grain of salt???  Did you not say that or  something about the same , it's been so long ago at my age ( "old man" ) i can't remember the quote ?
I'm  confussed then? Gee No GTE? 

GO CATS ...

[Pat Coleman]

Well, we may receive something more official from the athletic department. I have left the lines of communication open on this subject.

[K-Mack]

K-Mack, I realize these boards are here for "arguing" and airing things out, but I said all I was going to say on the subject.  I didn't feel the need to beat a dead horse.  Apparently I was wrong in my figuring and I took my lumps and now we've moved on.  By the way, I believe it was you on another board that was asking if any D3 stadium has home-stands that stretch from the 10 yd. line to 10 yd. line.  It could be mistaken identity, but I'm pretty sure it was you.  If there is ever a big enough game at Gesling Stadium, check it out.  Home-stands stretch from goal-line to goal-line, (Probably to account for not having a visitor's side.)

Yeah,
I wrote that, in ATN I think. I've seen the aerials of CMU's field (did a CMU-JHU road game a few years back) and thought it looked like a great place to see a game.

I don't have QuickTime on my work PC, but I think this is a photo/video of the stadium.

http://www.cmu.edu/vrtour/nodes/gesling.html

I guess I'm a D3 stadium geek or whatever.

Now back to your regularly scheduled top 25 beefs and faulty math.

[K-Mack]

(moved from the Stagg Bowl XXXIV thread)

repete, you asked for a Top 5.

As dangerous as it is before the Stagg Bowl, I will give you 10:

1) MUC/UWW
2) UWW/MUC
3) SJF
4) Capital
5) SJU
6) Wesley
7) Rowan
8 ) UMHB
9) HSU
10) UWLC

1 Mount Union (25) 15-0 625 1 Def UW-Whitewater 35-16 Season Over
2 UW-Whitewater 14-1 599 2 Lost to Mount Union 35-16 Season Over
3 Capital 11-2 558 4 — Season Over
4 St. John Fisher 12-2 539 16 — Season Over
5 St. John's 11-2 511 12 — Season Over
6 UW-La Crosse 9-2 506 7 — Season Over
7 Wesley 13-1 464 3 — Season Over
8 Mary Hardin-Baylor 10-3 455 5 — Season Over
9 Whitworth 11-1 382 8 — Season Over
10 Springfield 10-2 355 15 — Season Over
11 Central 10-1 351 9 — Season Over
12 Rowan 9-3 325 13 — Season Over
13 Hardin-Simmons 8-2 317 6 — Season Over


I stand by my post.  I undervalued UWLC, Whitworth, Springfield and Central and dramatically overvalued Rowan.

I think that HSU lost out by not getting to play a first round opponent, before UMHB, but geographic proximity rules, even with msn.mappoint.com shortest distance notwithstanding.

Well,
I asked Mount Union folks their opinions of the teams they played specifically as it related to UWW, Capital, SJF and Baldwin-Wallace, four teams I knew I wanted in my final top 25 vote, but where?

Kehres wanted no part of influencing the vote, but at least one very articulate, thoughtful player (I'd say who, but I think I prefaced my question by saying the answers were just for me) said the best team they played was Whitewater, hands down, followed by Capital.

The way I saw it after the Stagg Bowl pretty much fell in line with what the player said (which is always nice to know).

I know that myself and a couple of the other D3 guys voted accordingly. We are never in the same room when we vote, except for the other day at the Stagg Bowl post-game ... and the cool part is we saw eye-to-eye on some stuff, and disagreed on other stuff, and people stuck to their opinions. It wasn't like a big group in a room going "well if you like Rowan at 10, so do I." ... and then that was only 4 voters anyway.

I think that helps for balance, anyway.

Holding your own against one of the two titleists was clearly a big influence in the top 10, despite other losses (UWL, Cap, SJF and SJU)

The final top 25:
1 Mount Union (25) 15-0 625 1 Def UW-Whitewater 35-16 Season Over
2 UW-Whitewater 14-1 599 2 Lost to Mount Union 35-16 Season Over
3 Capital 11-2 558 4 — Season Over
4 St. John Fisher 12-2 539 16 — Season Over
5 St. John's 11-2 511 12 — Season Over
6 UW-La Crosse 9-2 506 7 — Season Over
7 Wesley 13-1 464 3 — Season Over
8 Mary Hardin-Baylor 10-3 455 5 — Season Over
9 Whitworth 11-1 382 8 — Season Over
10 Springfield 10-2 355 15 — Season Over
11 Central 10-1 351 9 — Season Over
12 Rowan 9-3 325 13 — Season Over
13 Hardin-Simmons 8-2 317 6 — Season Over
14 Wilkes 11-1 311 11 — Season Over
15 Occidental 9-1 261 10 — Season Over
16 Wheaton 10-2 238 18 — Season Over
17 Bethel 9-2 224 17 — Season Over
18 Washington and Jefferson 10-2 206 20 — Season Over
19 North Central 9-3 155 -- — Season Over
20 Hobart 8-2 147 19 — Season Over
21 Cortland State 9-2 139 14 — Season Over
22 Carnegie Mellon 11-1 124 24 — Season Over
23 Linfield 6-3 75 21 — Season Over
24 Christopher Newport 8-3 56 -- — Season Over
25 Union 7-3 55 22 — Season Over

Ralph, I don't think Hardin-Simmons would have been in a much different slot had it been placed according to seed and lost in the second round to UMHB.

[K-Mack]

No. 13 Hardin-Simmons is ranked ahead of the other teams in the South Region, two of whom advanced to the second round. If HSU had beaten either No. 18 W&J or No. 24 CNU, or No. 21 Carnegie Mellon, unranked Millsaps or Dickinson and lost to the second round, they still would have been ranked right about where they are. You can argue about some of the teams right around them, like Whitworth, Central, Springfield or Rowan, but I think all of them except for maybe the Pirates had tight games with playoff teams that went deep into the field (or in Rowan's case, went deep themsevles)

Certainly HSU didn't belong ahead of UMHB or Wesley.

So I'm not sure what merit there is to saying "I think that HSU lost out by not getting to play a first round opponent, before UMHB."

Show me how.

I'm actually kind of proud of the D3 pollsters as a whole for looking at that, not just ranking by what round a team went out in.

I know I had Baldwin-Wallace 15th, I think. You hold the national champions to 14 points, you're probably as good or better than many of the 32 playoff teams.

(Pat and them countered with "they lost to Marietta though.")

[K-Mack]

Only fair to also include these comments from the same Dec. 9 discussion on the other board.

Hey Ralph,
Thanks. Didn't mean to put you on the spot, PA-W had just mentioned that Wesley was still a top 5 team and I couldn't think of it in any scenario.

Your caveat about the dangers of pre-Stagg rankings is well taken. I think if MUC wins that's a pretty good list. And it's pretty good if the game is close.

In the unlikely case that UWW wins substantially, SJF and Capital might slide and SJU and UWLX could climb. I think UWLX is a little low either way, given that its two losses are to UWW and it has a very high quality victory.

But knowing your posts there's undoubtedly logic that I am not seeing. Plus, things will play out soon enough.

I'm kicking myself right now for agreeing to change a BB practice from Thursdays to Fridays, which means I might miss what I believe will be a heckuva Stagg. (The good news is my newest 8th grade player has size 14 feet and is getting recruited by DeMatha or Good Counsel (Md.) for football and another player is likely headed to DeMatha for hoops.)

I can understand Pa Wesleyan's pain, and considerable it must be...almost as much as Bridgewater at MUC about 3 years ago.

I agree with your assessment if UWW wins by more than a TD.

Ralph, no SERIOUS complaints about your list, but I would flip-flop Cap and SJF (Cap lost ONLY to MUC, while SJF lost to MUC and Springfield; also, Cap lost in the playoffs by only 3, SJF by 12 - it's not Cap's fault they had to play them a week earlier!).  And while SJF was simply not competitive in the fourth quarter, Cap was.

Also, I think you have LaX WAY too low (if UWW beats MUC I'd put LaX all the way up at #3; even if they lose, probably #5).  As with the Cap/SJF comparison, LaX lost ONLY to UWW [even if the first game was a real spanking], while SJU lost to UWW and Bethel, with the playoff losses to UWW both being by 3 points.

Otherwise, I can't think of a team I'd place in the top ten to replace any of these.

Yeah, those kind of thumpings are never fun. Wesley does sound like a program on the the rise. I was really hoping to have been in Dover today.

I'm now thinking about going down anyway, leaving the gym at 9 with a couple of stinky kids and probably getting in around 1 a.m. I have the feeling this could be a classic. (And it's also the weekend my wife wants all males out of the house so she can bake for Christmas.)

Salem is such a great host. Anybody on the fence who hasn't been before ought to take it in.

Unfortunately, there's no YES clinic scheduled this year. The 2003 one was a huge hit with my son and his buddy. They worked with some great players from SOUTH Region teams (BC and Emory and Henry) who left a tremendous impression on them (and allowed me to tailgate). Plenty of good things to recommend this -- even if you don't have a dog in what looks to be a very good fight.

Mr. Y: As for where to place UWLX, I can see it both ways, but the impression I got from UWW was they thought SJU was a bit better. Still, UWLX beat Bethel, which beat SJU ... For this week, however, I'm going to try to focus on 1 vs. 2.