Top 25 rankings

Pat Coleman · December 20, 2006, 01:47:05 AM

Quote from: K-Mack on December 20, 2006, 01:08:50 AM
So I'm not sure what merit there is to saying "I think that HSU lost out by not getting to play a first round opponent, before UMHB."

Show me how.

This wouldn't have an effect on the poll, but since we do go to all the trouble of tracking wins and losses for teams and coaches and stats for players (including playoffs) it does seem unfair to seed HSU out of a first-round win.

Not that Jimmie Keeling is going to challenge John Gagliardi but he's not playing on the same field as Gagliardi is either -- he's term limited by the NCAA to one less game.

Ralph Turner · December 20, 2006, 08:55:03 AM

Quote from: K-Mack on December 20, 2006, 01:08:50 AM
No. 13 Hardin-Simmons is ranked ahead of the other teams in the South Region, two of whom advanced to the second round. If HSU had beaten either No. 18 W&J or No. 24 CNU, or No. 21 Carnegie Mellon, unranked Millsaps or Dickinson and lost to the second round, they still would have been ranked right about where they are. You can argue about some of the teams right around them, like Whitworth, Central, Springfield or Rowan, but I think all of them except for maybe the Pirates had tight games with playoff teams that went deep into the field (or in Rowan's case, went deep themsevles)

Certainly HSU didn't belong ahead of UMHB or Wesley.

So I'm not sure what merit there is to saying "I think that HSU lost out by not getting to play a first round opponent, before UMHB."

Show me how.

I'm actually kind of proud of the D3 pollsters as a whole for looking at that, not just ranking by what round a team went out in.

I know I had Baldwin-Wallace 15th, I think. You hold the national champions to 14 points, you're probably as good or better than many of the 32 playoff teams.

(Pat and them countered with "they lost to Marietta though.")

K-mack, thanks for the chance to discuss the HSU seeding.

The trend that I saw (retrospectively) is that I undervalued West Regon teams, Whitworth and Central. I looked at HSU's good wins over UW-SP and Linfield early in the season and took them as a fair assessment of HSU's strength. As dangerous a relative scores can be, HSU's opening weekend UW-SP victory was as solid as UWW's and UWLC's wins were at comparable times in each school's schedule. HSU's Linfield win in the second game of the season for both teams was also good and as solid as the Whitworth win for clinch the NWC championship.

(I saw HSU play twice, the Linfield game and the UMHB playoff game. I consider the HSU-UMHB football games as "rivalry" games, because they have been the best programs in the ASC.)

With "9 degrees of Kevin Bacon" we can get from HSU to Springfield and the East. I posted in September that opening game UMHB, on a 1446.4 mile road trip (msn.mapoint.com shortest possible distance

) to CNU, for the Captains' second game, is not a fair comparison. I do appreciate the shift in opinion towards the LL vs. the NJAC.

Keith, one other "value proxy" that we see amongst the voters is that Whitworth is #9 with 382 votes. On a perfect 625 vote system for the perfect Top 25 that works out to a very solid "11th", which is 375 votes in the "perfect 625 system". #14 Wilkes comes in at 311 votes which is almost closer to "13th" (325 votes) in that same "perfect 625 system". Six teams are separated by less than 71 votes. That is much consensus that those teams are awfully close in the opinions of the 25 best D3 minds. It just doesn't present itself that way without careful analysis of the vote totals.

Thanks for the chance to respond.

Ralph Turner · December 20, 2006, 09:34:31 AM

Wikipedia credits the creation of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" to Albright students in 1984.

K-Mack · December 21, 2006, 01:24:24 AM

Interesting.

Funny you should mention the "perfect 625" system. I didn't have a cool name for it, but I was looking at the poll with that in mind yesterday. Like UWW came in with 599, meaning one voter had them third, right?

Anyway, the point Pat makes above, I've never disagreed with. The committee could have followed its own seedings had it gotten the 491-mile number out of the software, and HSU probably would have beaten the six seed, W&J, and played at UMHB the next week (although no assumptions in the CNU-UMHB rematch).

In any case, yeah, I enjoy the discussions too.

How do we do it without calling each other names and questioning each other's manhood?

Ralph Turner · December 21, 2006, 01:53:56 AM

K-mack, I may as guilty of this as anyone, but let's call it the "regional pull effect".

MUC pulled UWW, Cap and SJF.

UWW pulled SJU, UWL, Whitworth and Central. Maybe even Oxy and Bethel.

SJF pulled Springfield, Rowan and Wilkes.

Wesley bombed again this year when they went to UWW, and were almost overtaken by UMHB. They probably had insignificant pull for anyone else in the South Region. The remainder of the South Region was 18, 22 and 24.

I would guess that UMHB and HSU managed to withstnd the "negative or absence of" pull and sustained their position from their pre-playoff non-conference games.

K-Mack · December 21, 2006, 02:08:36 AM

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 20, 2006, 09:34:31 AM
Wikipedia credits the creation of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" to Albright students in 1984.

And I picked Randolph-Macon over Albright.

We have, uh ... the CEO and founder of Dollar Tree!

Ralph Turner · December 21, 2006, 07:26:59 AM

Quote from: K-Mack on December 21, 2006, 02:08:36 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 20, 2006, 09:34:31 AM
Wikipedia credits the creation of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" to Albright students in 1984.

And I picked Randolph-Macon over Albright.

We have, uh ... the CEO and founder of Dollar Tree!

Last summer, we learned that Chuck Fallon, a McMurry football player from the old NAIA/Texas Intercollegiate Athletic Association days in the early 1980's, has been named president of Burger King North America.

PA_wesleyfan · December 21, 2006, 05:40:59 PM

Ok
Hypothetically!! Give UW-W the ball on the two and give Welsey the ball at the 20 twice. What happens??

Ralph how do you justify that SJF is not # 2?

They played Mt Union closer for a lot longer than UW-W!! that was your reasoning for some of you other rankings correct? Wesley has gone to the semi's two years in a row and still they don't get respect. And no # 7 is not respect. Not after winning 25 games in two years!!

Ralph you are a Texas homer.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that) You can't stand that Wesley has beaten a Texas team twice in a row. UMHB had a nice two drives other than that Wesley stomped 'em.

As I have said before end of season rankings don't matter unless you are #1. And after Kleppe being snubbed it seems that the rankings and all american teams are all come down to where the voters are from.

OK enough of that!!!!

Ralph
Have a safe and healthy holiday!!! PEACE!!!!

Ralph Turner · December 21, 2006, 08:05:49 PM

Pa Wesleyan, I think that UWW is in Wesley's head.

I think that Wesley is getting into UMHB's head.

I think that UMHB is getting into HSU's head and HSU is going to address that this off-season!

I think that HSU would have been a stronger match for Wesley, because HSU QB Jordan Neal is a more "Staubachian" or a more "Vince Young - type" QB for being able to do everything that he possibly can to "will" his team to victory.

Respectfully, I see UMHB's Josh Welch as being able to execute a game plan precisely and not lose the game for his team. I see HSU's Neal as being better able to take a bad situation and pull it out or "die trying". Those are different football gifts and graces. Aikman would not lose a game. However if I were behind, I would want Staubach to QB my team for the best chance for a win.

Digressing, I think that the best QB in the Staubach mold in the NFL today is Vince Young. I think that Vince can get more out of his 52nd player on the roster than anyone in the NFL. I hope that he can learn some real "NFL QB skills" before he is lost to injury.

As for Wesley, I would love for them to play SJU in Minnesota. It would be a non-region game for both, so the consequences would only impact the secondary criteria, but it would be "Game of the Week". Shucks, tell Keith when to buy the airline tickets!

PA_wesleyfan · December 21, 2006, 08:26:04 PM

Ralph
Here is Wesley's opponents as promised.
Wesley is playing Widener, Del-Val, Huntingdon(H), Chowan (A), Morrisville (A) and conference NNA (A), BPort (A), SSU(H) and Frostburg (H). Still looking for a 10th game. That was as of two weeks ago!!

K-Mack · December 21, 2006, 10:30:32 PM

Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on December 21, 2006, 05:40:59 PMAnd no # 7 is not respect.

You know you're my boy. But what on God's green earth are you talking about here? Of course No. 7 is respect ... and given how they finished the season, it's probably right where they belong. Any team that played UWW tough could have had that "pull" effect over Wesley and any comparable South Region team, and dropped the Wolverines even further, had UMHB not stalemated UWW. You should be thanking Texas.

I agree that No. 1 is the only ranking that really matters, yet for some reason we all seem to be really interested in 2-234.

I justify not putting SJF at No. 2 because Mount Union said UWW was the toughest team it played, followed by Capital.

Where better to get it than from the source?

SJF finished at 4, I think, and did well representing the East and itself vs. two big-name programs.

Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on December 21, 2006, 05:40:59 PMAs I have said before end of season rankings don't matter unless you are #1. And after Kleppe being snubbed it seems that the rankings and all american teams are all come down to where the voters are from.

Or your source.

Kleppe was D3football.com's Defensive Player of the Year.

Just want to make sure the lurkers and casual readers know you aren't referring to us when you say a man was snubbed.

PA_wesleyfan · December 22, 2006, 12:11:03 AM

Keith
I understand your thinking. One game doesn't make a season... And yet it does!!
But I still wonder how UMHB gets a pass yet Wesley doesn't. But nothing is perfect.
If you go by who beat who and how and when, then shouldn't you consider that Wesley did get to UW-W and was seated third. Enough double talk for now...
I gotta be the voice here Keith, you know where I am coming from?

Kleppe not getting his props is unfortunate but they must have not seen the final.
He reminds me of Demetrius Stevens from Wesley in the late 90's. Their only weakness is they are not tall enough for the know alls..

Pat Coleman · December 22, 2006, 01:50:56 PM

Perhaps because UMHB was competitive against Whitewater.

And Wesley is still ranked ahead of UMHB. Is that getting a pass? No. It's appropriate, in fact.

'gro · December 22, 2006, 02:25:56 PM

cortland should be lower... tanking an ECAC game is still tanking a game.

K-Mack · June 20, 2007, 01:47:04 AM

So, before we see the preseason polls for '07 (should I start a new thread? I don't mind keeping this one going), what are people's thoughts on No. 2 and the rest behind Mount Union?

I can't post the poll I did for USA Today's College Football Preview until at least the 25th, when it hits newsstands. However, I'd like to be in full discussion mode by the time it hits