Top 25 rankings

[Just Bill]

but given where some of the better S and W teams are, you could end up with Podunk ND as your neutral site.   

Where do get off?  Have you been to Podunk, ND?  It may not be Times Square, but Bingo Night at St. Mary of the Lake is a hot, happenin' scene.  Don't even get me started on the East Podunk nightlife.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I confess I'm not familiar with the charms of Podunk, ND, but I've twice been to Ypsilanti, ND.  Since both times we went we were the only customers in the only 'restaurant' in town, they'd probably appreciate the business!

For those unfamiliar with Ypsi, ND, it is 35 miles east of Gackle - hope that clears things up.

[In case Augustana ever resumes their national dominance, Wing, ND, might be considered!]

[repete]

I actually lived in N.D. for a couple of years and the town was so dead we'd drive an hour to Podunk for a big night out.

Go Dickinson St. Savages ... now the Blue Hawks.

[Ron Boerger]

but given where some of the better S and W teams are, you could end up with Podunk ND as your neutral site.   

Where do get off?  Have you been to Podunk, ND?  It may not be Times Square, but Bingo Night at St. Mary of the Lake is a hot, happenin' scene.  Don't even get me started on the East Podunk nightlife.

But you have to be careful because the West Podunk Police Station is half a block away.   

[PA_wesleyfan]

BUT Podunk is not 100 yrds long is it???

[Ralph Turner]

BUT Podunk is not 100 yrds long is it???

The town is zoned four "single-wides" to the block, so you can get a couple of blocks in there. 

[K-Mack]

I'm in no way saying that historic data should be the sole or even primary factor, but random isn't the answer.

Historic data should not even be considered.  The four #1 seeds are basically seeded among themselves based on the prescribed selection and seeding criteria, with the top two getting to host the semi-finals (should they advance that far).

The fact that the North and West have been chosen to host these games lately is not a statement about the relative strength of the regions.  The committee has decided each year (in a separate decision making process each year) that the #1 seed in these regions are better than the #1 seed in the others.

And the fact that John Carroll won the East a few years back says absolutely nothing about the strengths of these regions in 2007.  It simply means that, in that year, John Carroll was better than the teams in the East region.

Exactly.

Arguing about the strength of the regions is fun, but with regard to the 2007 playoffs, only 2007 data should be in play.

sjfc has been at this for a while y'all (see pp. 56-58 or so), and what he's either failing or refusing to understand is that there are established criteria for setting the semifinal seeds, which leave very little to human "judgement."

According to Ralph's post on p. 58, the criteria used to seed the four brackets is in fact the same selection criteria used to seed teams, period. Straight out of the handbook: Wins vs. in-region D3s, wins vs. other regionally-ranked teams, OOWP, etc.

If St. John Fisher went 10-0 against the Empire 8 and a handful of non-conference teams who had successful seasons, it could earn the top seed for the semifinals. It might be difficult to do if Mount Union also goes 10-0 because it is likely to have at least one and probably as many as three wins over teams who are also regionally-ranked (and many of the regionally-ranked teams will end up in the playoffs, so you can almost consider this wins vs. other playoff teams), because there are usually 2-4 fairly successful OAC teams battling for at-large playoff spots.

The only real human element is the regional rankings, but even those are based mostly on indisputable data (wins against common oppoents, record, etc.) ... and in certain cases, the human element is needed, because 9-0 with Occidental's schedule might not be as strong as 8-2 (8-1 vs. D3) with UW-Whitewater's.

There was a case, two whole years ago, when Delaware Valley, then the East's No. 1 seed, was the No. 1 overall playoff seed. Had Mount Union, 9-1 that year but still the No. 1 seed in the North, advanced to play Del Val in the semis, they would have traveled to Doylestown, Pa. Instead, Del Val lost to a lower-seeded Rowan team, and the Profs went to Alliance on the basis of a lower seed not being able to host a higher seed, regardless of region.

Mount Union is not given a home game every year in the semis. They earn it by their regular-season performance and by lasting all the way to the semis where some 1s don't. I would like to see them play road games too, but when there are opportunities to make them travel, like in 2005, someone has to take advantage, or they'll have to shut their pie holes and play in Alliance.

So again, I submit to you all, the semifinal sites are not determined arbitrarily. Regardless of whether you think random is or isn't more fair, it's important for you to understand how things do work before you form your opinion on what might be a more fair process.

Let me know if this is not making sense and I will try to simplify. There was a time earlier in this thread when I had the details mixed up, so I know it can be confusing. Otherwise, feel free to discuss the strength of regions, but know that past history has little, if any, bearing on where even seeds would play in the semifinals.

[K-Mack]

Not sure what you mean by region to region distinction.

If you're asking how they seed the brackets against each other, it's basically a ranking of the No. 1 seeds in each bracket. The No. 1 and No. 2 top seeds' brackets get the home-field advantage if equal seeds advance to the semifinals.

Let me try an example, say by crazy coincidence all #1 seeds advance from the regional brackets. How is it decided which region will play which region and who would host the games?

Page 12-14 from the 2007 NCAA D3 Football Championships Handbook answers these questions. 

The selection committee will use the primary (and secondary if necessary) selection criteria to determine those seeds.

I have read this handbook and, obviously, I am missing something. The sections you refence do show criteria for seeding within the regional brackets but do not indicate any criteria for the selection of which region faces which region if the same seeds emerge from the regional bracket and which would be the home team.

If this hasn't been answered clearly before, it is the same criteria.

Anyone out there who hasn't read the handbook, it never hurts to refresh your memory. p. 12-14 will take you a few minutes to read, but will do wonders in helping you understand why at-large teams get in, why teams get seeded the way they are seeded and why regions are ranked the way they are ranked for the purpose of hosting semifinal games on campus.

FTR, I like the on-campus semis. And all playoff games, really. D3 games at D3 venues, with D3 crowds, with D3 reaping the rewards (if any) ... it's a tremendous honor to be able to host a playoff game, not to mention a joy for the home fans and in many cases, the school in general. Even on Thanksgiving break.

Anyway ...

[smedindy]

Mount Union is not given a home game every year in the semis. They earn it by their regular-season performance and by lasting all the way to the semis where some 1s don't. I would like to see them play road games too, but when there are opportunities to make them travel, like in 2005, someone has to take advantage, or they'll have to shut their pie holes and play in Alliance.

Oh, you HAD to mention 2005. How many drops did we have that game against Capital, when we had hardly any drops all season. 

We coulda been a contender, and Purple nation would have had to come to C'ville.

Ah, well. One year they will be in my hometown, and I WILL be there. I may be 90, but I'll be there!

[K-Mack]

I do like the work/analyzation that must have went into moving St. Olaf up in the poll from #18 to #13 after almost upsetting St. Johns in Collegeville, and that being its only loss. In most other polls, they would have moved down, or at the best stayed where they were, simply because they lost.

Foss, you beat me to posting about this very thing.

I think it's great that Olaf moved up five spots despite losing. That's a testiment to them being a good team -- which is what I think is the case -- rather than to thinking that the Johnnies weren't playing up to snuff. The poll accepts the very real likelihood that that MIAC has two very good teams in it this year.

But, I have to ask, is this the biggest jump in the Top 25 poll that a team has made after losing? Obviously, I'm not questioning it, just asking the Web site of record. 

Ryan,

Sorry -- I don't have an easy way to research that, sorry.

How about the hard way then? A slow night at work inspired me to do just that.

From what I could tell, clicking on every week going back to 2003, there has been only one other time that a team has lost and moved up in the rankings. And, the funny thing is, that loss was also to St. John's. In Week 7 of 2005, Concordia-Moorhead went from 13th up to 12th after losing 20-16 to the Johnnies.

It's good to have St. John's as a conference foe, it seems.

Feel free to point out my uber-retentiveness now. 

Tipps,
This is a 'gateway' to doing lengthy ATRs and ATNs for the next seven years.

Two words: Rehab. Now.

[Ralph Turner]

Two of the most memorable Stagg stories since the creation of the Pool systems...

1999 Pacific Lutheran  National Championship team.  Beats Rowan
2004 UMHB  Loses 21-28 to Linfield, led by Brett Elliott.

If you look at the schedules, all four games to the Stagg Bowl were played on the road!

[TC]

Two of the most memorable Stagg stories since the creation of the Pool systems...

1999 Pacific Lutheran  National Championship team.  Beats Rowan
2004 UMHB  Loses 21-28 to Linfield, led by Brett Elliott.

If you look at the schedules, all four games to the Stagg Bowl were played on the road!

Don't forget the 2000 Johnnies falling 3 points short against Mount Union.  That would have made it back-to-back West #7's to hit the road and win the Stagg.

[Ralph Turner]

Two of the most memorable Stagg stories since the creation of the Pool systems...

1999 Pacific Lutheran  National Championship team.  Beats Rowan
2004 UMHB  Loses 21-28 to Linfield, led by Brett Elliott.

If you look at the schedules, all four games to the Stagg Bowl were played on the road!

Don't forget the 2000 Johnnies falling 3 points short against Mount Union.  That would have made it back-to-back West #7's to hit the road and win the Stagg.

Yes!!  Thanks and +1!

That was my first "Stagg Bowl".  I remember listening over my 28K modem to the webcast of the game played in the rain!

[repete]

Well, I'll admit it was the talk about "random" or coin-flip semifinal seedings that sucked me in  "because conference strengths vary years to year" and later detoured to one of my favorite subjects ... that all regions are not equal.

They are two separate arguments and need to be considered that way. One actually affects the teams and the other is purely a messaging board debating topic (... and one I'll enjoy at least until the numbers change )

There will alway be quibbles and sometimes be injustice but using data and human intervention when needed seems the best option IMHO. The Oxy situation is a great example.  A question, KMack: how much of the John Carroll move was in black & white and how much was human judgment/ interpretation?
----
Ralph,
I'm shocked such a wise man can be a relative "newbie!"

[Ralph Turner]

Well, I'll admit it was the talk about "random" or coin-flip semifinal seedings that sucked me in  "because conference strengths vary years to year" and later detoured to one of my favorite subjects ... that all regions are not equal.

They are two separate arguments and need to be considered that way. One actually affects the teams and the other is purely a messaging board debating topic (... and one I'll enjoy at least until the numbers change )

There will alway be quibbles and sometimes be injustice but using data and human intervention when needed seems the best option IMHO. The Oxy situation is a great example.  A question, KMack: how much of the John Carroll move was in black & white and how much was human judgment/ interpretation?
----
Ralph,
I'm shocked such a wise man can be a relative "newbie!"

repete, I may have watched a Stagg on ESPN or somewhere sometime in the past.

McMurry and the ASC have only been in the NCAA since 1996-97, and the ASC didn't have a team get a football bid until the initiation of the pools in 1999, so discovering D3football.com and D3hoops.com in 1999-2000 was the first real chance to explore D3.