MBB: American Rivers Conference

[Klopenhiemer]

Can we at least say that the IIAC is closing the gap a bit over the last 2-3 years? UD beat a ranked Platteville team 2 years ago, Loras and BV had success this year..feels like the wins are against the top half of the WIAC?

I think that that's a fair assessment, Keith.

I find the WIAC and IIAC comparision to be apples to oranges considering many other factors.  If you want to break this down to the level that you have, lets start comparing some apples to apples.  

Compare WIAC size of school to IIAC size of school:  Advantage WIAC

Compare tution costs between the WIAC and IIAC:  Advantage WIAC

Compare the red shirting policy between the WIAC and IIAC:  Advantage WIAC
(I know this rule has changed)

When you start to compare some of the tangible items, it is clear why the WIAC should dominate the IIAC.  Going 31-16 over the past 7 years is not half bad if you really want to think about it.  Compare the Big Ten to the ACC.  The ACC dominates the win/loss record but take a look at the programs there compared to the Big Ten.  

You make comparisions between the IIAC and the CCIW.  The CCIW should be much better than the IIAC.  Look at the population the CCIW servers compared to the IIAC.  Look at the cities that these schools are located in compared to the IIAC.  

Wheaton is thriving community as you well know nesseled in between two rather well known cities:  Aurora and Naperville.  Buena Vista is in a packing plant town that is surrounded by a lack luster lake and corn fields.  

My only point is that on paper the WIAC and CCIW should blow the doors off the IIAC year in and year out.  But you have some teams making a small amount of noise coming from a state who has less population as a whole than the city of Chicago proper.

That's a nice try to shift the playing field for the discussion, Klop, but it's not gonna work.  None of this stuff is relevant to the issue at hand, which is the (incorrect, IMHO) assertion that the IIAC is competitive with the WIAC based upon Buena Vista's win over UWSP two months ago. I'll take this as a sign that you've conceded that point, and move on.

As for what you've said about the IIAC's disadvantages, well ... seems to me that you're stating the obvious here. Although school size, a redshirting policy made illegal three years ago, and the relative winsomeness of Wheaton, IL as compared to Storm Lake, IA aren't nearly as relevant to the success of a basketball team (or lack thereof) as are a lot of other factors, I think everyone agrees that the IIAC has some built-in disadvantages to overcome. On the other hand, it has some advantages as well: A location in a state renowned as a high school basketball hotbed (as compared to the MIAC, f'rinstance, which is located in a hockey-mad state in which a lot of young athletes opt to play that other winter sport); schools that have long and solid reputations both as educational institutions and as basketball programs; a relative dearth of small-school competition for recruiting (there's only the Midwest Collegiate Conference, and the Great Plains Athletic Conference in the far northwestern corner of the state); etc.

Every league has its pluses and minuses in terms of the environment within which it operates. You make do with what you have. It seems to me that Buena Vista has succeeded in making do with what it has (and I would imagine that its #1 resource, or close to it, in terms of fielding a successful men's basketball team is the presence of Brian Van Haaften), and Loras is getting there as well in terms of maximizing advantages (Loras, for example, is making the most of its geographical location by recruiting lots of Chicagolanders). It's up to the rest of the IIAC's programs to avoid moaning about their disadvantages and wallowing in self-pity over them, and to find their advantages and utilize them.

Why? Because, as much as you claim that it's apples against oranges, the fact of the matter is that it's an all-fruit division, not just a division for apples. Division III doesn't hold a special tournament in March for conferences from underpopulated states. You're asked to play teams from the UAA, the CCIW, the WIAC, the MIAC, etc., and that's the situation with which you have to deal. And at the end of the day, nobody's going to care if you say, "Well, we only win 32% of our games against the WIAC, but their schools are cheaper to attend and have better gyms than ours," or, "Well, we've never made it to the Final Four, but we have all this stuff working against us so no one should ever expect us to make it to the Final Four." All that people ultimately care about is the bottom line. To use the famous paraphrase of Al Davis, "Just win, baby."

Greg I had moved on past the BV win over UWSP.  Sorry if that was not clear.    I was mainly trying to bring out some comprisions between the WIAC and IIAC.  I was also trying to expand upon Keiths point some.  Evidently I did a piss poor job of doing that. 

My other point was cost and popultion size.  The amount of kids that a conference like the CCIW has to pull from vs. the IIAC.  Which is why I assume IIAC teams recruit Illinois. 

I will say that Iowa does play some good high school basketball.  I would argue that Iowa is more know as a "hotbed" for high school wrestling rather than high school basketball.  But I will let you tell me what you think about that. 

[Klopenhiemer]

Wheaton is thriving community as you well know nesseled in between two rather well known cities:  Aurora and Naperville.  Buena Vista is in a packing plant town that is surrounded by a lack luster lake and corn fields. 

Klop----

I think you'll find that the primary reasons most student-athletes who choose Wheaton College do so are because of the combination of the excellent education available there combined with the school's religious philosophy. NOT because its nestled between the well known cities of Naperville and Aurora. In fact, Aurora, which has several beautiful subdivisions, ranks high in gang activity, drug use, and murder rate. Not exactly things Wheaton students are usually associated with.

AndOne that was not my point.  My point was population size only.  I know the Aurora and Naperville area very well.  My point was that if you take Wheaton College look at the high schools they have to recruit in the immediate area.  I know kids go to Wheaton for the education and not for the nightlife or the proximity to Aurora.  If you wanted night life in the Chicagoland region then go to DePaul and live in Lincoln Park. 

Nequa Valley HS
Waubonsie Valley HS
Both Oswego High School
Naperville North
Batavia HS
Wheaton Warrenville HS
St. Charles
Elgin
Joliet Catholic

[AndOne]

Wheaton is thriving community as you well know nesseled in between two rather well known cities:  Aurora and Naperville.  Buena Vista is in a packing plant town that is surrounded by a lack luster lake and corn fields. 

Klop----

I think you'll find that the primary reasons most student-athletes who choose Wheaton College do so are because of the combination of the excellent education available there combined with the school's religious philosophy. NOT because its nestled between the well known cities of Naperville and Aurora. In fact, Aurora, which has several beautiful subdivisions, ranks high in gang activity, drug use, and murder rate. Not exactly things Wheaton students are usually associated with.

AndOne that was not my point.  My point was population size only.  I know the Aurora and Naperville area very well.  My point was that if you take Wheaton College look at the high schools they have to recruit in the immediate area.  I know kids go to Wheaton for the education and not for the nightlife or the proximity to Aurora.  If you wanted night life in the Chicagoland region then go to DePaul and live in Lincoln Park. 

Nequa Valley HS
Waubonsie Valley HS
Both Oswego High School
Naperville North
Batavia HS
Wheaton Warrenville HS
St. Charles
Elgin
Joliet Catholic

Klop---

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your original point relative only to population density.

Wheaton College does not really draw many recruits from the high schools you cited above. Most Wheaton players come from various locations throughout the United States, drawn principally to Wheaton by its religious ideology. Among the schools cited, the only player I can think of that played for Wheaton recently was Drew Olson from WW South. He was a freshman on the Wheaton roster during the 06-07 season, but did not actually appear in any games that season, and was not a member of this year's team. The one most obvious omission from your list of local high schools is Wheaton North which sent Andrew Jahns to WC this year. He saw considerable action as a freshman this year, and became a starter around the mid point in the season. Wheaton team manager Josh Lawrenz is also from Wheaton North, and next year Steve Pierotti, another North product, will be a member of the Thunder basketball team. 

[Klopenhiemer]

Wheaton is thriving community as you well know nesseled in between two rather well known cities:  Aurora and Naperville.  Buena Vista is in a packing plant town that is surrounded by a lack luster lake and corn fields. 

Klop----

I think you'll find that the primary reasons most student-athletes who choose Wheaton College do so are because of the combination of the excellent education available there combined with the school's religious philosophy. NOT because its nestled between the well known cities of Naperville and Aurora. In fact, Aurora, which has several beautiful subdivisions, ranks high in gang activity, drug use, and murder rate. Not exactly things Wheaton students are usually associated with.

AndOne that was not my point.  My point was population size only.  I know the Aurora and Naperville area very well.  My point was that if you take Wheaton College look at the high schools they have to recruit in the immediate area.  I know kids go to Wheaton for the education and not for the nightlife or the proximity to Aurora.  If you wanted night life in the Chicagoland region then go to DePaul and live in Lincoln Park. 

Nequa Valley HS
Waubonsie Valley HS
Both Oswego High School
Naperville North
Batavia HS
Wheaton Warrenville HS
St. Charles
Elgin
Joliet Catholic

Klop---

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your original point relative only to population density.

Wheaton College does not really draw many recruits from the high schools you cited above. Most Wheaton players come from various locations throughout the United States, drawn principally to Wheaton by its religious ideology. Among the schools cited, the only player I can think of that played for Wheaton recently was Drew Olson from WW South. He was a freshman on the Wheaton roster during the 06-07 season, but did not actually appear in any games that season, and was not a member of this year's team. The one most obvious omission from your list of local high schools is Wheaton North which sent Andrew Jahns to WC this year. He saw considerable action as a freshman this year, and became a starter around the mid point in the season. Wheaton team manager Josh Lawrenz is also from Wheaton North, and next year Steve Pierotti, another North product, will be a member of the Thunder basketball team. 

AndOne...Thanks for the information, that was interesting.  I was not taking into consideration religous views that would only appeal to a small portion of the population, rather the basing my point off of the shear amount of population/high school size that Wheaton is in close proximity to. 

[Full Court Sorcerer]

Klop,

A couple of points.  Number one, how many full-time paid coaches are in the IIAC?  Not every school like it is in Wisconsin.

A counter point however.  BV has a larger territory to recruit from that basically is untouched by any other four year institution.  Why haven't they been rolling through IIAC every year?

[Klopenhiemer]

Klop,

A couple of points.  Number one, how many full-time paid coaches are in the IIAC?  Not every school like it is in Wisconsin.

A counter point however.  BV has a larger territory to recruit from that basically is untouched by any other four year institution.  Why haven't they been rolling through IIAC every year?

BV has a large area to recruit from?  I guess if you consider corn towns with populations of 2,000 people and 15 senior boys in the high schools a great recruiting area, then YES BV does have a great recruiting area.  I know I did over simplify this but you get my point. 

One, finding kids who will come to Storm Lake is a battle in its self.  Two being out in the middle of nowhere does not help.  Souix City has produced a whole lot of nothing.  You ask why BV hasnt been rolling through the IIAC.  I will argue since VH has been at the helm BV has been quite impressive in the IIAC. 

[Gregory Sager]

AndOne...Thanks for the information, that was interesting.  I was not taking into consideration religous views that would only appeal to a small portion of the population, rather the basing my point off of the shear amount of population/high school size that Wheaton is in close proximity to. 

To reinforce AndOne's point, Wheaton is the only school in the CCIW that doesn't recruit locally, but rather nationally. When a Wheaton-area kid enrolls at Wheaton College to play sports, it's either a coincidence (more or less) or else he or she has some sort of a personal link to the school (legacy, family member works for Wheaton, Wheaton student-athletes attend the kid's church during the school year, etc.).

I'm not discounting the fact that the CCIW benefits from the quantity and quality of talent in Chicagoland -- it most certainly does -- but keep in mind that the number of small-college programs and mid-major D1s that are vying for the same Chicagoland prospects is huge. It's not unusual for a good D3-level Chicagoland prospect to rattle off the names of six or seven local schools (and maybe even two or three non-local schools) that're chasing him.

Also, a lot of good CCIW players over the years have been downstate farmboys analogous to the sort of kids you see on IIAC teams. This has particularly been true of the three downstate CCIW schools (Augustana, Illinois Wesleyan, and Millikin), and it's increasingly true of Elmhurst as well; EC coach Mark Scherer is a downstate native who has made hay (so to speak) recruiting such outstanding downstate players as Ryan Knuppel, Reuben Slock, Chris Martin, Brent Ruch, and Ryan Burks to come up to suburbia and play for the Bluejays over the past decade. This year he's added some more promising downstate recruits to the Elmhurst larder as well. So it's not just a matter of proximity to Chicagoland that explains the CCIW's success at coaxing talented players to enroll within the conference.

A couple of points.  Number one, how many full-time paid coaches are in the IIAC?  Not every school like it is in Wisconsin.

This is a much more relevant point than any of the others that have been raised thus far, and I'd like to know the answer to it. Are all of the head coaches in the IIAC full-timers? Are there paid assistants in the IIAC? If so, how many are full-time? Staffing (and related issues such as non-coaching time commitments) plays a much bigger role in recruiting than does demographics. If you're a college basketball coach you can go out and find good high school basketball players almost anywhere -- whether it's the cornfields, the well-trimmed lawns of suburbia, or city playgrounds -- but you can't go out and find them if you don't have to the time to do so.

[Full Court Sorcerer]

Sorry Gregory.  What I meant to say is assistant coaches.  I don't believe that any team in the Iowa Conference has a full time paid assistant coach.  Which definietly makes it harder to bring in a talented staff, but I still think that the IIAC does fine. 

Head coaches are all paid full time.

[The Roop]

Copy and paste from the MWC board:

Now that some of the schedules are out it leads to a question. Coe and Cornell open the season at Lawrence where they will play Lawrence and Ripon. Sounds like a MWC vs. IIAC Challenge. Which is fine but what I don't understand is why does the Coe-Ripon game on Saturday move to Ripon ??

I suppose Ripon is on the way back home for them but it's not like they are saving a great deal of travel time by not playing @LU both days. Could it be a MWCTV thing, as that game in Ripon is webcast but none of the games at LU are. Just curious ?? Or could it be a "Coe-spiracy".

(Maybe somebody here will know)

[Full Court Sorcerer]

I looked at both Ripon's and Coe's website and both schedules look like the Coe/Ripon game are at Ripon.

http://www.ripon.edu/athletics/mbasketball/2008-09/2008-09_Schedule.html

http://www.coe.edu/athletics/basketballm/schedule.htm

[The Roop]

Right, that's what I said but the break down of the games goes like this:

11/21 @Lawrence
5:00PM Cornell vs. Ripon
7:00PM Coe vs. Lawrence 

11/22 3:00PM Cornell @Lawrence
11/22 5:00PM Coe @Ripon

Coe is driving 2 hours away (roughly) to play 2 hours later on the second day. I'm not sure how that makes any sense from a travel perspective.

Here's a theory............... Coe and Cornell share a bus on the trip up. Then the Ripon bus gives Coe a lift to Ripon. The Coe/Cornell bus gets to Ripon the next day about the time the Ripon/Coe game is over. It fits the time line anyway; but why make it so complicated. Or does the Coe/Cornell bus go to Ripon then double back to get Cornell the next day ??

You would accomplish the same thing by having all 4 teams play @Lawrence on the 22nd if they just started earlier. 1:00PM and 3:00PM @Lawrence vs. 3:00PM and 5:00PM at different sites. Bus sharing or not, I can't understand why one game is at a different venue the next day.

[Full Court Sorcerer]

I highly doubt that Coe and Cornell will split a bus since they have been rivals for 100 years.  So, I don't really follow this theory, but from what I can see the game is being played at Ripon.

[insidelook]

None the less still a big pickup for Loras......he had to be pretty good if IWU, Augie, and NC were all heavily recruiting him.......6'8'' post that completely improved his game from Jr - Sr year, is always a great sign for a post.....look for him to have a terrific career at Loras......Come his last two years at Loras he will be a force.

A source very close to the situation and recruitment process of Danny Pawelski advises that a primary reason he chose Loras over Augie and North Central was that he didn't feel he had an adequate skill level to allow him to play effectively in the CCIW, and that he felt he would have a better chance for success in the IIAC. I saw him play several times this season and concur. Keep in mind I'm not knocking the conference, just reporting the facts, which come form an unimpeachable source. Danny has improved and certainly has the potential for further improvement. However, Duhawk fans will need to be patient. I can guarantee you that he won't immediately be filling the void left by the graduating big men. I believe the term "project" is very applicable here. Good luck to him.

MORE RECRUITING NEWS-----------

On a secondary note, playing at Loras will afford Danny the chance to team with another incoming Duhawk frosh from Benet Academy in Lisle, the town immediately east of Naperville where Danny (Naperville, IL/Neuqua Valley) is from. Brian Gaughan, Benet's 6'0" point guard will also attend Loras. I believe Danny and Brian are friends and played AAU ball together. Brian is the son of Benet's head coach, and even though a point, never met a shot he didn't like. When he is hot he can score in bunches, but when he is cold, your grandpa could hit a higher percentage.
Brian will need to learn to exhibit his other skills,  and not keep firing bricks on those nights when he isn't "on,"  to be successful at the next level.     

[insidelook]

Unfortunately, AndOne has a source that is apparently NOT very close to the situation and recruitment process of Danny Pawelski.
Danny was being recruited by most every school in the CCIW, and several other schools from many areas. Never did he have a doubt about his playing ability or adequacy to play at any one of the CCIW schools.  Anyone who knows Danny knows that he may infact, be a "late bloomer".  He has continually grown in heighth every year, and skills have improved every year.  At no time has he had an ego to go along with that.  His goal was only to go on and play four more years of the sport he loves. Loras College provided the PERFECT fit.  The coaches and players at Loras were the absolute key in his decision to choose Loras. And based on a piece of advice from a conference rival coach, Danny chose the school "who wanted him the most, and who will look out for him for the next four years".  It's funny that the kid was good enough for the CCIW coaches until he turned them down....now he's just a "project" for Loras! This is the real story.

[Titan Q]

Some of the best low post players I saw in '07-08 were those guys from Buena Vista (I was at the Wash U Sectional).  Outside of Troy Ruths (Wash U) and Brent Ruch (Elmhurst), I think that trio of big, strong beasts from BV were the best I saw all year (sorry can't remember their names...there were a bunch of them are they seemed interchangeable).  In other words, I think there was only one CCIW big man better than the BV big guys (Ruch, who might be a 1st Team All-American in '08-09).  I'd take the BV posts over Augustana's Dain Swetalla or IWU's Brett Chamernik. 

I'm just not sure there is much difference between the average CCIW center and the average IIAC center.  Pawelski absolutely could play in the CCIW.  If he did, I'd say the same thing as I did when he committed to Loras - he shouldn't be over-hyped.  He will be a serviceable Division III big man, but not a superstar.  He brings great size and will continue to improve.  I just think he lacks intensity and desire - at least when I saw him play he did.

Illinois Wesleyan was on Pawelski early - head coach Ron Rose liked him as a player and as a person.  IWU landed their top big man recruit early though - a kid with multiple D1 rides...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/03/26/scholastic/doc47e86e6693f6f903819761.txt

And IWU was starting to get in good shape with their #2 big guy recruit (who they ended up getting)...

http://www.midstatehoops.com/articles/2008/rose.html


So Coach Rose backed off Dan P. to expend recruiting resources elsewhere., while I'm sure other D3's (including 2-3 in the CCIW) were still on him in a big way.  I have no idea if he liked IWU or not and if the Titans had a chance, but certainly IWU recruited him...and pretty hard for a while.

Also consider that the program that has won the league the last three years (Augustana) wanted him bad as far as I know.  And I do not think Augie ended up getting any recruits at the 5, or taller than 6-4...

Augustana
Chris Anderson (6-4 SF/PF, West Carroll) - 17.9 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.7 apg
Max Artis (6-3 SF/PF, Kirkwood, Mo.) - 15.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, .592 FG, .674 FT
Brian DeSimone (6-1 PG/SG, Buffalo Grove) - 16.0 ppg
Griffin Dwyer (6-1 SG, Hersey H.S.) - 14.3 ppg
Josh Evans (6-4 SF/PF, Niles North)
Troy Rorer (6-2 G/F, Bettendorf) - 9.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 2.5 apg
Eric Safranski (6-0 PG/SG, Putnam County) - 12.9 ppg
Peter Wessels (6-3 SG, Bettendorf) - 10.7 ppg

And as far as I know, Pawelski would be the best young big man in North Central's mix (the other CCIW that really recruited him hard).

I do not think Pawelski would be a CCIW star and I don't think he'll be one in the IIAC...but he should be somewhere between "serviceable" and "good" in time.  It just depends on how hard he works.