MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

I met Whitmore once after a game I covered. He stopped in to say hello to the coach I was interviewing since he was recruiting one of his players. I'm not sure how much contact he'd had with the HS coach, but I know the player was considering the school pretty seriously.

When Whitmore left, the coach gave a little "Who was that guy?" type response. When I told him in was Hamline's new head coach, he seemed very surprised.

This reinforces what I was getting at yesterday. Wohler was an established high school coach in Minnesota prior to his arrival at Hamline, right? That meant that he was a known commodity among his former peers when he was the Hamline coach, and he knew the lay of the land in terms of Hamline's recruiting area.

Whitmore is an outsider, and by "outsider" I'm not talking about a 'sconnie from the wrong side of the St. Croix River. I'm talking about an upstate New Yorker whose knowledge base and whose pool of friends and acquaintances in the coaching business reflect the other Rochester and the other Buffalo (the cities where they root for the Bills rather than the Vikings), as well as Syracuse, Utica, maybe a bit of NYC, etc. It will take Whitmore time to establish his credentials and make contacts in the Land of 10,000 Lakes.

This is not an insignificant detail, nor is it unprecedented among D3 coaches that shift from one part of the country to another. I have a perfect example: Todd Raridon. Raridon was a highly successful head coach at Nebraska Wesleyan who took that program to the D3 national championship game in 1997. He's a native Nebraskan who played both his high school and his college ball in the Cornhusker State before joining the NWU staff as an assistant under the legendary Jerry Schmutte and then taking over when Schmutte retired.

Four seasons ago Raridon became the head coach at North Central College, a CCIW school in Chicago's far western suburbs. Over the course of that four-plus years at NCC he has had a lot of difficulty trying to keep up with his CCIW peers in terms of recruiting; he's brought in exactly one player, Chris Drennan, as a freshman who has subsequently made the All-CCIW team. Raridon has had some success at NCC (e.g., the 2005-06 team that won the CCIW tourney and lost in the first round of the D3 tourney at St. Thomas), but he had that success coaching players that his predecessor had recruited (Raridon is a much better coach than his predecessor, and got a lot more out of those players than his predecessor ever had).

Unless you're recruiting for a nationally-based program such as those in the UAA or NESCAC, which is another kettle of fish entirely, a lot of the recruiting process comes down to personal contact with the local high school coaching fraternity. As WW indicated, Whitmore is completely starting from scratch in that area.

[Drake Palmer]

joe scott is not exactly a prisoner of the earth's gravitational pull either. 

+k Superfan!

DP, That's gotta be in the running for quote of the year??

Sum – I'm guessing when Supe was a youngster he was heavily influenced by the closing credits of the old B&W TVs when they signed off for the day.  As difficult as it may be to imagine for some of our younger posters, TV programming wasn't always on 24/7. I've heard  from some oldtimers who said TV stations used to air a Public Service Announcement showing a Blue Angels plane flying through the sky, and a narrator would read an excerpt from the following poem before the TV went off for the day:

'High Flight'

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air. . . .

Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew —
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God

I've heard in some parts of outstate MN they're still airing this piece.  Alex, Bagley, DL, Fergus Falls, Vergas, etc. 

[Generic Dude 75]

Someone mentioned the play of Brady Ervin and I can't help but add on to that. Word around campus is that his teammates love the guy and that he can legitimately play (He's not just a football player playin hoops, he plays football AND can hoop...there's a difference). He's known for his beastly D but I was a little surprised about how aggressively he plays on the offensive end. I'm guessing Coach Fritz got in his ear a bit gave him a little confidence against bethel. I realize he only had six points but it seems like the potential is there to get a solid 8-10 from him in the future.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the other footballers see any tick this year...or stick around in the future...Who's been the last "big name" athlete to play both football and basketball in the MIAC? Does anyone know?

As for Archer I no one really knew what the deal was with him. The most information that I've heard is that he isn't sick and is still in school...Hope he gets through whatever it is that's going on.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Someone mentioned the play of Brady Ervin and I can't help but add on to that. Word around campus is that his teammates love the guy and that he can legitimately play (He's not just a football player playin hoops, he plays football AND can hoop...there's a difference). He's known for his beastly D but I was a little surprised about how aggressively he plays on the offensive end. I'm guessing Coach Fritz got in his ear a bit gave him a little confidence against bethel. I realize he only had six points but it seems like the potential is there to get a solid 8-10 from him in the future.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the other footballers see any tick this year...or stick around in the future...Who's been the last "big name" athlete to play both football and basketball in the MIAC? Does anyone know?
As for Archer I no one really knew what the deal was with him. The most information that I've heard is that he isn't sick and is still in school...Hope he gets through whatever it is that's going on.

Well, it COULDA been PJ Theisen, but he decided to run track instead of football; at Viau's hoop A Thon last year, he MADE (not attempted, but made) 105 FTs in 5 minutes!

I'd say the last big name to play both football  & hoops was SJU's Ryan Keating...All-Conference in both sports, NCAA football championship...yeah, Id call that "big name" performance. Then there was this Boese guy down at GAC...rumor has it he wasnt too shabby at either sport. Then there was Yaruze Slowon over at Auggie, lil Kootiskis at Carleton, and I'm sure I've missed another half dozen, just since 1999-2000.  But it is still rare, especially compared to Drake's playing days

UST's last? I'd say Joe Warren, but that was European football, not US-style.

But, youre right...Ervin is definitely not a football player dabbling on the court, or vice versa. He is legit at both. I heard that Waldvogel and Morse have looked good on the JV but due to UST's depth most likely will not see the court in varsity, barring injuries.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

The discussion about Whitmore & recruiting makes me ask-- what about Kietzer? He's been at Mac about 10 years now, and has all of 3 MN kids on the roster. Is he out of touch with the MN HS coaches? You'd think he'd able to lure a few in each year, especially with the success of Russell-Van Thorre-Conboy. Not sure what's going on over there...maybe one of the Mac alum (1 Arm?) can shed some light. To me, its more intriguing than the Hamline situation simply because the points Greg makes indicate that it will take Whitmore a little longer than average to start bringing them in, whereas Kietzer is a local guy, a former HS coach in the state, and has been coaching college a while.

[Drake Palmer]

I'd say the last big name to play both football  & hoops was SJU's Ryan Keating...All-Conference in both sports, NCAA football championship...yeah, Id call that "big name" performance. Then there was this Boese guy down at GAC...rumor has it he wasnt too shabby at either sport. Then there was Yaruze Slowon over at Auggie, lil Kootiskis at Carleton, and I'm sure I've missed another half dozen, just since 1999-2000.  But it is still rare, especially compared to Drake's playing days

I don't know Mose...

the +    +

is pretty old school gear. That dazzling winter white argyle sweater someone was wearing at the Bethel- UST game the other night made me flash back to stories I'd heard about the 50s.  I don't think my eyes have still recovered from that fashion flashback.  Yowz! 

[Drake Palmer]

The discussion about Whitmore & recruiting makes me ask-- what about Kietzer? He's been at Mac about 10 years now, and has all of 3 MN kids on the roster. Is he out of touch with the MN HS coaches? You'd think he'd able to lure a few in each year, especially with the success of Russell-Van Thorre-Conboy. Not sure what's going on over there...maybe one of the Mac alum (1 Arm?) can shed some light. To me, its more intriguing than the Hamline situation simply because the points Greg makes indicate that it will take Whitmore a little longer than average to start bringing them in, whereas Kietzer is a local guy, a former HS coach in the state, and has been coaching college a while.

OAS or others could better speak to this issue than I, but apparently Macalester has fairly stringent admissions policies, & interpretation of those policies that really hamper their athletic recruiting efforts.  On several occasions I've talked to MAC people, & they've expressed frustration that the coaching staff isn't allowed the same degree of flexibility in recruiting as their neighbor to the south - Carleton.  Both schools recruit from the same highly selective end of the academic/athletic pool, but apparently the admissions office at Carleton is more receptive to considering strong candidates in a case by case basis.

[Gregory Sager]

The discussion about Whitmore & recruiting makes me ask-- what about Kietzer? He's been at Mac about 10 years now, and has all of 3 MN kids on the roster. Is he out of touch with the MN HS coaches? You'd think he'd able to lure a few in each year, especially with the success of Russell-Van Thorre-Conboy. Not sure what's going on over there...maybe one of the Mac alum (1 Arm?) can shed some light. To me, its more intriguing than the Hamline situation simply because the points Greg makes indicate that it will take Whitmore a little longer than average to start bringing them in, whereas Kietzer is a local guy, a former HS coach in the state, and has been coaching college a while.

Macalester is one of those nationally-based schools I spoke about here:

Unless you're recruiting for a nationally-based program such as those in the UAA or NESCAC, which is another kettle of fish entirely, a lot of the recruiting process comes down to personal contact with the local high school coaching fraternity.

Macalester is, in effect, a NESCAC school that wandered off of the reservation in New England and found itself in the alien spaces of the upper midwestern prairie with nary a peer such as Amherst or Williams or Bowdoin nearby. Take a look at all of the Macalester rosters in the school's various sports, not just men's basketball -- the teams include student-athletes who hail from one end of the country to the other, with quite a few international students sprinkled in there as well. Macalester gets comparatively few Minnesota student-athletes for the reasons Drake mentioned, but also because the school as a whole focuses upon recruiting a national student base, not a local student base. All of the other MIAC schools except for Carleton are regional liberal arts colleges that recruit both student-athletes and students at large locally rather than nationally. Carleton is a national liberal arts college, too, as a cursory examination of its various sports rosters (except for men's basketball) demonstrates, but as Drake explained Carleton seems to have a little more leeway than Macalester in terms of getting in local basketball players.

[localcoach]

The Hamline topic has really taken off.  I of course have to add my two cents or else Drake will tell me I'm slacking.  Here are a few bullet points to build on what other posters have already stated.

- First and foremost, as a previous coach and as someone who is good friends with a number of college coaches in many sports, recruiting is the bottom line, especially in basketball which is a players' game and not a coaches' game.  Like Gene Keady said, "Recruiting is like shaving.....you're gonna look like a bum if you don't do it."  At this early juncture in Coach Whitmore's career  I would agree with PI and rate his recruiting around a "C."  I would add that it appears he has decided to go the route of bringing in a number of out-of-state recruits from places such as California, etc.  This begs the question...Is that because Hamline has decided they cannot beat out other MIAC foes for in-state players, or are they just looking to mine an unused area in the hopes of finding some hidden treasures?

- Regarding their play this year, what I cannot figure out is the rotation, or lack their of for the Pipers.  It's really hard for players to get comfortable in a system when one game their starting, and another their playing 3 minutes.  Now, that's not a knock on Coach Whitmore, but rather just a general comment.  For all we know there may be other underlying issues surrounding this lack of consistency. 


Other topics:

- On the subject of MAC.  Here's the bottom line.  Until MAC allows their admissions standards to be a little more flexible, Coach Kietzer will continue to have to find kids with 28+ ACT's and high GPA's and that's not an easy thing to do....at least not talented ones.

- Drake you're slipping.....no mention of Augsburg's recent addition of Anthony Humphrey, a DeLaSalle H.S. grad and transfer from I believe Bemidji State?  Humphrey had 14 points in his first game for the Dawgs.  A nice addition for Coach Griess' young team. 

[Nites]

The Hamline topic has really taken off.  I of course have to add my two cents or else Drake will tell me I'm slacking.  Here are a few bullet points to build on what other posters have already stated.

-
- Regarding their play this year, what I cannot figure out is the rotation, or lack their of for the Pipers.  It's really hard for players to get comfortable in a system when one game their starting, and another their playing 3 minutes.  Now, that's not a knock on Coach Whitmore, but rather just a general comment.  For all we know there may be other underlying issues surrounding this lack of consistency. 


[

Thank you, Local.      That's, in part, the point I was trying to make earlier.  It's very difficult to figure out what Whitmore is trying to do.  The players may also feel the same way, and whatever his strategy, it hasn't translated into many victories on the court.

[miacsuperfan]

joe scott is not exactly a prisoner of the earth's gravitational pull either. 

+k Superfan!

DP, That's gotta be in the running for quote of the year??

Sum – I’m guessing when Supe was a youngster he was heavily influenced by the closing credits of the old B&W TVs when they signed off for the day.  As difficult as it may be to imagine for some of our younger posters, TV programming wasn’t always on 24/7. I’ve heard  from some oldtimers who said TV stations used to air a Public Service Announcement showing a Blue Angels plane flying through the sky, and a narrator would read an excerpt from the following poem before the TV went off for the day:

'High Flight'

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air. . . .

Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew —
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God

I've heard in some parts of outstate MN they're still airing this piece.
Alex, Bagley, DL, Fergus Falls, Vergas, etc. 

thank you, drake,  for a trip down memory lane and thanks i am sure from the family of air force officer gillespie magee, rcaf squardron 412.     oh, and as kids if we wanted to watch tv we had to look through our neighbor's window.   

[ChairmanYao]

The discussion about Whitmore & recruiting makes me ask-- what about Kietzer? He's been at Mac about 10 years now, and has all of 3 MN kids on the roster. Is he out of touch with the MN HS coaches? You'd think he'd able to lure a few in each year, especially with the success of Russell-Van Thorre-Conboy. Not sure what's going on over there...maybe one of the Mac alum (1 Arm?) can shed some light. To me, its more intriguing than the Hamline situation simply because the points Greg makes indicate that it will take Whitmore a little longer than average to start bringing them in, whereas Kietzer is a local guy, a former HS coach in the state, and has been coaching college a while.

I completely agree with what everybody is saying about MAC. Just have one other thing to add. It really all comes down to money at the D3 level and especially in the MIAC with all private institutions. As a former player in the MIAC, I was recruited by MAC and was able to get in. However, even if a student gets by the admissions there is still the financial side of things. Maybe a student gets a 28 on the ACT and can get in but needs a 30+ to get the kind of scholarships other schools in the area can offer for a lesser score. Just my 1 cent.

[Nites]

The discussion about Whitmore & recruiting makes me ask-- what about Kietzer? He's been at Mac about 10 years now, and has all of 3 MN kids on the roster. Is he out of touch with the MN HS coaches? You'd think he'd able to lure a few in each year, especially with the success of Russell-Van Thorre-Conboy. Not sure what's going on over there...maybe one of the Mac alum (1 Arm?) can shed some light. To me, its more intriguing than the Hamline situation simply because the points Greg makes indicate that it will take Whitmore a little longer than average to start bringing them in, whereas Kietzer is a local guy, a former HS coach in the state, and has been coaching college a while.

I completely agree with what everybody is saying about MAC. Just have one other thing to add. It really all comes down to money at the D3 level and especially in the MIAC with all private institutions. As a former player in the MIAC, I was recruited by MAC and was able to get in. However, even if a student gets by the admissions there is still the financial side of things. Maybe a student gets a 28 on the ACT and can get in but needs a 30+ to get the kind of scholarships other schools in the area can offer for a lesser score. Just my 1 cent.

Speaking of schools and money - USA Today just released its list of 100 Best Value Colleges for 2009 and Carleton was the only Minnesota school to make the list.  According to the article, 100% of the students who demonstrate financial need at Carleton get it.  I imagine that helps the school's athletic programs.   http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/best-value-colleges.htm

[gacbacker]

Well here we are again. About midway through another season. Another season when different people picked different teams to be atop the conference, yet once again its St. Thomas and Gustavus in first and second place. Some things never change I guess.

One note about today's Gustavus/Hamline game in St. Paul: It was about 90 degrees inside Hutton Arena today.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Well here we are again. About midway through another season. Another season when different people picked different teams to be atop the conference, yet once again its St. Thomas and Gustavus in first and second place. Some things never change I guess.

One note about today's Gustavus/Hamline game in St. Paul: It was about 90 degrees inside Hutton Arena today.

So they had the A/C on?

You're right...the more things change, the more they stay the same.. UST/GAC battling for 1 & 2, Bethel/Car- solid 3 & 4... SJU in the playoff mix....so far the lone surprise is Auggie rising up