MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[TommieFan2012]

The defensive job done last night by Robinson on Madson in particular but also Scott on Vavra in 2nd half and the press/pressure as a whole totally neutralized Bethel's guard play. Interestingly, BU only took 10 3-point shots, down from their season avg of 15.1. You'd think a team trailing big would shoot MORE 3s not less, but UST's defense prevented them from getting shots off.

Holding Vavra to a late three for his only points in 2nd half after scoring 10 in first half and shutting Madson out for 17+ minutes in the 2nd half is a phenomenal defensive job.

Second half, UST totally neutralized the "BU bigs" --making Moberg and Robertson total non-factors in the final 20 minutes.

A factor that hasn't been mentioned on here was how well UST handled the ball in the 2nd half. They had just THREE TOs in the half- a ridiculously low number.


GREAT crowd, amazing atmosphere in the Shoe. The crowd was a factor, for sure in that UST fed off the energy of the student section. Hopefully, they continue to turn out and be loud & proud

Well stated, I suppose it was also a factor that Lonnie was feeding off the crowd to make sure that Madson was held in check.  I know that if I were Lonnie, after hearing the airball chants, I would do everything I could do keep him shooting poorly.

[papahoops]

VOJ, at halftime last night I thought your prediction was looking good. Bethel defended much better than I anticipated and had they been able to handle the UST pressure D, the game would have been a low scoring affair. Final winning score was higher than you thought but lower than my prediction, so we'll call it even

I had not seen the box score when I posted after the game. I saw this morning that Halvorsen had 14. I knew he had a good 2nd half, but didn't realize he had that many. I love his shooting touch for a player his size and his offensive versatility. A little improvement in the strength of his inside post game and he is a lock first team all conference selection next year.

Early in the season, I admit I was skeptical about UST's potential NCAA playoff run due to their undersized front court. Their swarming pressure defense, however, has consistently negated this potental achiiles heel. I continue to think that outstanding post play combined with a backcourt that handles pressure well could give them problems in the tournament. I know the MIAC is considered to be "down" this year and it  will not be an easy run, but I now believe the depth of their defensive strength could overcome the size issue, giving them a shot to make a long run. If they can get through the WIAC representatives, I like their chances against other regions in the country. My feeling is the WIAC is typically the best D3 athletic conference in the country and beating any representative from that conference is the key test of national championship potential.

[Drake Palmer]

Triple play coming...

A few more thoughts & comments following last night's UST- Bethel game.

Congratulations on nice careers to Bethel's Cory Laugen, & Mike Moberg.  They were both vital cogs in the basketball success Bethel has enjoyed during their years at Bethel.  Tim Madson was an absolutely spectacular ballplayer & I've shook my head in amazement countless times over the past 4 years at some of the incredible, athletic shots he's made.  Although last night was a tough way to conclude his career, the memory I'll carry of Tim Madson will be that MVP like performance he had against Augsburg last Wednesday night.  He will definitely be missed.  Kudos to all!

[VOJ]

VOJ, at halftime last night I thought your prediction was looking good. Bethel defended much better than I anticipated and had they been able to handle the UST pressure D, the game would have been a low scoring affair. Final winning score was higher than you thought but lower than my prediction, so we'll call it even

I had not seen the box score when I posted after the game. I saw this morning that Halvorsen had 14. I knew he had a good 2nd half, but didn't realize he had that many. I love his shooting touch for a player his size and his offensive versatility. A little improvement in the strength of his inside post game and he is a lock first team all conference selection next year.

Early in the season, I admit I was skeptical about UST's potential NCAA playoff run due to their undersized front court. Their swarming pressure defense, however, has consistently negated this potental achiiles heel. I continue to think that outstanding post play combined with a backcourt that handles pressure well could give them problems in the tournament. I know the MIAC is considered to be "down" this year and it  will not be an easy run, but I now believe the depth of their defensive strength could overcome the size issue, giving them a shot to make a long run. If they can get through the WIAC representatives, I like their chances against other regions in the country. My feeling is the WIAC is typically the best D3 athletic conference in the country and beating any representative from that conference is the key test of national championship potential.

Papa...its a draw...

Fellas quit worrying so much about the size factor with the Tommies, off the top of my head they were in the top 3 in rebounding margin...there are a few keys to post-season runs...a good draw, no injuries, defending well and guard play, guard play, guard play...

UST has a stable of great guards to choose from...they play solid defense and look how they took away Roberston and Moberg, I am not saying Bethel is on par with some top 10 teams or even those in the WIAC, but if that is the only factor you can point to and say that will do the Tommies in, I have to say you are not looking at the big picture or the most important picture...

[Drake Palmer]

Second...

Alright, back to more useless chatter & the like: 

I happened to read the UST game blog which was written by Nick Lauer, one of the interns for the UST SID.  (Brother of SJU tennis player – Teddy Lauer?) 
UST-Bethel Game Blog

Based on his blog, he can join us on the board anytime he wants.    He writes with a fair, but decidedly UST bias, & made me chuckle several times throughout his piece. Lauer reminded me of a less jaded, world weary Willy Wonka at the rige old age 0f 27  Several of  of my favorites...

Bethel fans may need to put Madson's face on the back of a milk carton because he has been notably absent on the offensive side of the ball all game.

About 15 students rush the court, but then leave shortly after. Not a lot of storming the court happens in the midst of an undefeated season, yet these students defied the odds.
*******************

For the most part, nice write up Bet34, although I disagreed with you on several of your closing comments.  Having said that, we missed you on the board this season.  A well fought, but tough loss for the Royals. 

One comment which I questioned & made me scratch my head was your thoughts about the Tommies in the NCAA -

...but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.

So I went to the MIAC stats site & made an interesting discovery.

UST led the league in 3-pt shooting % at 39.2%, followed by GAC at 38.9% & CORD @ 38.1%.

I don't think that statistic in & of itself is a huge surprise, but it's the actual number of trey attempts that mildly surprised me.  In the back of my mind I was thinking, "yeah the Tommies would probably be one of the league leaders in 3FG attempts," but that is not the case at all.

Carleton led the league in 3FG attempts at 412 & 33% hit rate, followed by STO with 369 attempts (why -  ?!?)  & 33%, & SJU with 361 3FG attempts & 34.3% success rate.

The Tommies were 10th in the league in attempts with 291 trey attempts & GAC was 11th with 270 3FG attempts.

So what this tells me is several things:

One, statistically the Tommies used the trey as a "hammer" to break a game open as opposed to using it as their primary scoring option.  Their primary scoring option is their Defense which they use to create turnovers & hopefully create easy baskets in transition. 

Secondly, because of the threat of the three, it opens up the inside for McCoy to go one on one, or create additional interior scoring opportunities because of their excellent passing abilities. As I've said before they're one of the best passing teams I've seen.

Third, it could also be argued that because they were beating teams so decisively you never really got to see them in half court offense that often which would expose their offensive shortcomings.  I'll leave that argument for Willy or others to carry on.

However, Bet34 is right, if a team can get past the Tommies' press, UST can be vulnerable to a big, physical team in a half court setting. So far, those big physical teams didn't quite have the guard play to offset the Tommie quickness.  But I see a few storm clouds over to the east,  UW-Platteville, Whitewater, plus Puget Sound (UPS) & Whitworth with their speed to the west.

[Drake Palmer]

And the third...

Speaking of the NCAAs, I found this interesting tidbit.  Open the link - NCAA Advisory Handbook,
scroll to the last page of the document & notice who's on the NCAA's West Region tournament advisory committee.     .  I wonder how a relative newcomer to the west region area could get selected to a position on this committee? My guess is that he was recognized because of his coaching involvement at his previous school.  Seems the "Admiral"  is everywhere on the High Seas. 
****
D3 Hoops has their tourney predictions up - D3 Hoops Tourney Projection

Even if only half of their projections hold up, the West region is absolutely loaded. Last year I think Pat & crew only missed two teams.   As former 60's soul crooner Jerry Butler used to sing – "Only The Strong Survive."  This is one monster draw!  My hat's off to any team that comes out of this region & advance to the Final Four. 

There's a very good chance UST will be hosting games here this weekend so any fan of small college basketball owes it to themselves to line up early & get tickets.  I've seen about half of these teams play in the last couple of years live or over the web, & there should be some top notch, high quality basketball.

[Drake Palmer]

Ok, now I'll stop.  Bonus track for the seniors - age wise, not the the class of 2009. 

Only the Strong Survive

[BETHEL34]

My prediction on the Tommies in the NCAA tourney...they will be bounced out in their first or second game.  There are too many teams out there in the tourney that will be able to beat there press and when it comes down to a half court game they will get out manned inside and get beat pretty bad...double digit loss when they go out in their first or second game.  I hope I am wrong and would love to see them win it all, but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.  With all that said though, good luck to the Tommies!  Represent the MIAC proudly!

34, wondering how many of those teams you have seen personally?

From a distant observer sounds like a touch of sour grapes!

Maybe a small touch of sour grapes  .  Sure, I have only seen one D3 game outside the Miac this year, but Bethel's press break is absolutely horrendous and that is what cost them the game.  Augsburg put a terrible press on us last WED night and we almost let a 10 point lead slip away to them in the last few mins.  Take a look at the La Crosse game against the Tommies this year.  Looks like they didn't struggle with the press that much being that the Tommies had 0 fast break points for the whole game.  I just don't think the full court pressure that the Tommies put on so well against the MIAC this year that lead to so much of their success is going to have as much of a impact on the quicker, bigger, and better coached teams that they are going to run into in the Tourney.  And with that being said it is going to come down to who executes better in the half court and that is where I see the Tommies are going to struggle when it comes to some of these WIAC teams.  As we saw when they went against a 10-15 WIAC team that took them to OT on their home court earlier in the year.  Sure it is one game, and I do hope I am wrong here, but I just don't see them going very deep.

2012...you got to be kidding me.  You don't have a clue what you are talking about.  You obviously have never played basketball in front of a crowd before...as much as you would like to think the fans can get into a players head you are pretty much dead wrong.  It might happen to a young immature player, but never to a player of Madson's ability and maturity level. 

Last night's game was very very physical all night long out on the wings.  The refs were letting a lot of reaching left and right and Lonnie was banging Madson hard all night.  There were multiple stretches throughout the game that Madson was just gassed and you don't see that very often from him.  Lonnie did an amazing job on him on every possessing never taking one off.  Every time Timmy would drive and set up his stop and then turnaround jumper the Tommies would send a double team at him.  Man, Frits really knows how to coach.    Kudos to Lonnie and the Tommies (NOT THE FANS) for pounding on Timmy all night and taking him out of his game.

To the game as a whole it pretty much came down to Bethel not being able to break the press.  It was so frustrating to watch as a Bethel fan.  Sure it is a great press, but come on that many to's is absolutely rediculous and that was the name of the game.  I feel like if that game came down to a half court game Bethel wins that game by 8-10 points.  Bethel's half court play in the last 3 games against the Tommies has been better overall, but then the 20-30 points they give up on TO's gives Tommies the huge edge and eventually the W.  It lets the Tommies play free and relaxed just playing off of instincts when you have 5 or 6 straight fast break layups or dunks.  Every single possession Bethel had to work their butt off to even make it across half court and when they rarely managed to do that you felt like that was a win in itself but yet they hadn't put points up on the scoreboard yet.  Absolutely brutal...
Congrats to a great Career to Madson, Moberg, and Laugen...I look forward to playing in many of men's leagues with you guys. 

My prediction on the Tommies in the NCAA tourney...they will be bounced out in their first or second game.  There are too many teams out there in the tourney that will be able to beat there press and when it comes down to a half court game they will get out manned inside and get beat pretty bad...double digit loss when they go out in their first or second game.  I hope I am wrong and would love to see them win it all, but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.  With all that said though, good luck to the Tommies!  Represent the MIAC proudly!

Whoa, I never said that the fans were the sole reason for madson's play, I just simply said that they got into his head, which in my opinion is true.  Obviously Lonnie is an amazing defender, and is the main reason Madson didn't play to his abbilities.  But I do think that the fans had an affect.  If you disagree, then that's fine.  How can you honestly say Kudos to Lonnie and the Tommies (NOT THE FANS)?  Do you think that home court gives no advantage?

Home court gives you an advantage because as a player you can feed off that energy like MM said, not because they are able to get in the heads of the opposing players...and you really think Lonnie all of a sudden was playing defense harder on Madson because he heard the air ball chant???  Wow...sounds like a fan that needs a realization check on how much impact they really have.  Sure it is your opinion, but I have to say a terrible one with no real background to back it up.

[BETHEL34]

For the most part, nice write up Bet34, although I disagreed with you on several of your closing comments.  Having said that, we missed you on the board this season.  A well fought, but tough loss for the Royals. 

One comment which I questioned & made me scratch my head was your thoughts about the Tommies in the NCAA -

...but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.

So I went to the MIAC stats site & made an interesting discovery.

UST led the league in 3-pt shooting % at 39.2%, followed by GAC at 38.9% & CORD @ 38.1%.

I don't think that statistic in & of itself is a huge surprise, but it's the actual number of trey attempts that mildly surprised me.  In the back of my mind I was thinking, "yeah the Tommies would probably be one of the league leaders in 3FG attempts," but that is not the case at all.

Carleton led the league in 3FG attempts at 412 & 33% hit rate, followed by STO with 369 attempts (why -  ?!?)  & 33%, & SJU with 361 3FG attempts & 34.3% success rate.

The Tommies were 10th in the league in attempts with 291 trey attempts & GAC was 11th with 270 3FG attempts.

So what this tells me is several things:

One, statistically the Tommies used the trey as a "hammer" to break a game open as opposed to using it as their primary scoring option.  Their primary scoring option is their Defense which they use to create turnovers & hopefully create easy baskets in transition. 

Secondly, because of the threat of the three, it opens up the inside for McCoy to go one on one, or create additional interior scoring opportunities because of their excellent passing abilities. As I've said before they're one of the best passing teams I've seen.

Third, it could also be argued that because they were beating teams so decisively you never really got to see them in half court offense that often which would expose their offensive shortcomings.  I'll leave that argument for Willy or others to carry on.

However, Bet34 is right, if a team can get past the Tommies' press, UST can be vulnerable to a big, physical team in a half court setting. So far, those big physical teams didn't quite have the guard play to offset the Tommie quickness.  But I see a few storm clouds over to the east,  UW-Platteville, Whitewater, plus Puget Sound (UPS) & Whitworth with their speed to the west.

Looks like I miss spoke about them relying on their 3's...I guess that was coming from the first game that BU was at the shoe this year where STU had to hit 4 or 5 tough 3s in the last 7 mins to erase a 14 point lead...if 1 or 2 of those didn't go Bu wins that game.

*******************

For the most part, nice write up Bet34, although I disagreed with you on several of your closing comments.  Having said that, we missed you on the board this season.  A well fought, but tough loss for the Royals. 

Thanks for the kind words...with work, moving, and have a baby I just didn't have time to post this year.   

[TommieFan2012]

My prediction on the Tommies in the NCAA tourney...they will be bounced out in their first or second game.  There are too many teams out there in the tourney that will be able to beat there press and when it comes down to a half court game they will get out manned inside and get beat pretty bad...double digit loss when they go out in their first or second game.  I hope I am wrong and would love to see them win it all, but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.  With all that said though, good luck to the Tommies!  Represent the MIAC proudly!

34, wondering how many of those teams you have seen personally?

From a distant observer sounds like a touch of sour grapes!

Maybe a small touch of sour grapes  .  Sure, I have only seen one D3 game outside the Miac this year, but Bethel's press break is absolutely horrendous and that is what cost them the game.  Augsburg put a terrible press on us last WED night and we almost let a 10 point lead slip away to them in the last few mins.  Take a look at the La Crosse game against the Tommies this year.  Looks like they didn't struggle with the press that much being that the Tommies had 0 fast break points for the whole game.  I just don't think the full court pressure that the Tommies put on so well against the MIAC this year that lead to so much of their success is going to have as much of a impact on the quicker, bigger, and better coached teams that they are going to run into in the Tourney.  And with that being said it is going to come down to who executes better in the half court and that is where I see the Tommies are going to struggle when it comes to some of these WIAC teams.  As we saw when they went against a 10-15 WIAC team that took them to OT on their home court earlier in the year.  Sure it is one game, and I do hope I am wrong here, but I just don't see them going very deep.

2012...you got to be kidding me.  You don't have a clue what you are talking about.  You obviously have never played basketball in front of a crowd before...as much as you would like to think the fans can get into a players head you are pretty much dead wrong.  It might happen to a young immature player, but never to a player of Madson's ability and maturity level. 

Last night's game was very very physical all night long out on the wings.  The refs were letting a lot of reaching left and right and Lonnie was banging Madson hard all night.  There were multiple stretches throughout the game that Madson was just gassed and you don't see that very often from him.  Lonnie did an amazing job on him on every possessing never taking one off.  Every time Timmy would drive and set up his stop and then turnaround jumper the Tommies would send a double team at him.  Man, Frits really knows how to coach.    Kudos to Lonnie and the Tommies (NOT THE FANS) for pounding on Timmy all night and taking him out of his game.

To the game as a whole it pretty much came down to Bethel not being able to break the press.  It was so frustrating to watch as a Bethel fan.  Sure it is a great press, but come on that many to's is absolutely rediculous and that was the name of the game.  I feel like if that game came down to a half court game Bethel wins that game by 8-10 points.  Bethel's half court play in the last 3 games against the Tommies has been better overall, but then the 20-30 points they give up on TO's gives Tommies the huge edge and eventually the W.  It lets the Tommies play free and relaxed just playing off of instincts when you have 5 or 6 straight fast break layups or dunks.  Every single possession Bethel had to work their butt off to even make it across half court and when they rarely managed to do that you felt like that was a win in itself but yet they hadn't put points up on the scoreboard yet.  Absolutely brutal...
Congrats to a great Career to Madson, Moberg, and Laugen...I look forward to playing in many of men's leagues with you guys. 

My prediction on the Tommies in the NCAA tourney...they will be bounced out in their first or second game.  There are too many teams out there in the tourney that will be able to beat there press and when it comes down to a half court game they will get out manned inside and get beat pretty bad...double digit loss when they go out in their first or second game.  I hope I am wrong and would love to see them win it all, but I just don't see that happening when you have to rely so much on your full court pressure and your 3's to win a game come tourney time.  With all that said though, good luck to the Tommies!  Represent the MIAC proudly!

Whoa, I never said that the fans were the sole reason for madson's play, I just simply said that they got into his head, which in my opinion is true.  Obviously Lonnie is an amazing defender, and is the main reason Madson didn't play to his abbilities.  But I do think that the fans had an affect.  If you disagree, then that's fine.  How can you honestly say Kudos to Lonnie and the Tommies (NOT THE FANS)?  Do you think that home court gives no advantage?

Home court gives you an advantage because as a player you can feed off that energy like MM said, not because they are able to get in the heads of the opposing players...and you really think Lonnie all of a sudden was playing defense harder on Madson because he heard the air ball chant???  Wow...sounds like a fan that needs a realization check on how much impact they really have.  Sure it is your opinion, but I have to say a terrible one with no real background to back it up.

As I posted that last post I realized it might sound different than intended and I expected your reply.  My point is that lonnie, and the rest of the team, fed off of the crowds energy like MM said, and played with so much excitement and fun, not that all of the sudden they heard our chants and decided to play better. I have never seen so many smiles on the faces of our team, it was awesome.  I realize the way I originally said things gave the crowd to much credit, I think I was just super stoked from the game.  Anyways, I applaud Bethel, they had a great season and kept the game interesting.  Not to mention you gave us all quite a scare that last game at the shoe a couple weeks ago.

[BETHEL34]

Whoa, I never said that the fans were the sole reason for madson's play, I just simply said that they got into his head, which in my opinion is true.  Obviously Lonnie is an amazing defender, and is the main reason Madson didn't play to his abbilities.  But I do think that the fans had an affect.  If you disagree, then that's fine.  How can you honestly say Kudos to Lonnie and the Tommies (NOT THE FANS)?  Do you think that home court gives no advantage?

Home court gives you an advantage because as a player you can feed off that energy like MM said, not because they are able to get in the heads of the opposing players...and you really think Lonnie all of a sudden was playing defense harder on Madson because he heard the air ball chant???  Wow...sounds like a fan that needs a realization check on how much impact they really have.  Sure it is your opinion, but I have to say a terrible one with no real background to back it up.

Sorry, I just re-read that and that was a little harsh.  All I was trying to say is that as a player you don't even hear the crowd for the most part.  You are so focused on what you are supposed to be doing and playing hard that you block all that crap out.  I know you would like to think you can get in a players head as a fan, but for the most part you can't.  The game and your team is always bigger than anything apposing fans can say or do. 

[nkwest]

Take a look at the La Crosse game against the Tommies this year.  Looks like they didn't struggle with the press that much being that the Tommies had 0 fast break points for the whole game.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy of that particular line in the box score; it's rarely tracked by the UST stat crew and almost always listed as 0.

[Drake Palmer]

Oh Gawd – the official pairings haven't been even released & the smack talking is starting already.    The petty, internal bickering on the MIAC board & the wolfing by Old School on the WIAC board.   

When UST had their OT win against UW-LAX back in December, many so-called "experts" (wasn't that you Old School?? - smirk)  on the WIAC board were predicting that LAX would be vying for one of the last 2 WIAC playoff spots. But internal dissension & the loss of 4-year starting PG Brendan Brown to academic issues began the Eagles' 2nd half swoon.

So gimme a break.  I'll readily admit UST's post season play the last two seasons has been disappointing, but to totally dismiss this season & their results?  It's a new season & new ball club. UW-Stevens Point is basically the same team I saw last year that looked, flat, slow, & unathletic against Buena Vista.  A year later, Stevens Point is looking pretty crisp & playing at a very high level.

As I stated earlier, if the D3 pairings hold up, the West region could be a monster just like the region with Wheaton, Washington & UW-Platteville.  But until the MIAC rep – UST, beats a "nationally regarded" team, the Tommies will need to exercise restrain & hold their tongue & just win baby!  The teams I'm thinking might cause  damage are Puget Sound/Whitworth.  Elmhurst reminds me of UW-Platteville with a high quality pre-season AA in the post, decent/strong forwards, but their guard play is not near as tough as Platteville's.

[papahoops]

Good job on the posts this afternoon Drake. The Only the Strong Survive link was a winner
You seem to have a handle on the makeup of the WIAC teams. I really haven't followed the WIAC this year...I just have a tremendous amount of respect for the quality of that conference and would fear anyone who survives the WIAC making the NCAA tournament. From UST's perspective, what WIAC team would scare you the most? From your comments this afternoon, it sounds like UW-Plattesville could be a particularly tough matchup for the Tommies.

[Willy Wonka]

Is now a good time to point out that UST has only defeated five teams with a winning record this year, none of which are in consideration for an NCAA berth? They beat everyone they were supposed to beat, which is great, but they haven't ever been challenged with quality. You'd think Fritz might have wanted to step outside of his comfort zone a little bit in the nonconference schedule, but it didn't happen. They are basically St. Joes from a few years ago or Memphis last year — ridiculous numbers but not a lot of substance to back up the beefed up records.

The fact that the Tommies are untested is a point that can't be argued. When they have been tested on the national level, namely the last three years, the results have been disappointing and ugly. Keep in mind, they are 1-3 during that stretch and three (I think) of those losses have come at Schoenecker as the high seed.

And, it's worth noting that the "flat, slow and unathletic" UWSP team that Drake just ripped played the Beavers better than the Tommies last year. BVU returns almost everything from a year ago, including the PG who beat the pressure and the bigs who dominated the boards. The Beavers controlled that game for 37 minutes...and then nearly pissed it away. Personally, that's rematch I want to see.

With all those BUTS out of the way...it wouldn't surprise me to see the Tommies make a deep run. They are athletic across the board, defend very well and can hit the deep ball at a nice percentage. They aren't big, but they battle inside. When I look at these Tommies, I see a team eerily similar to my Gustie team who made a run to the title game — except they rely heavily on TOs to spark the offense. A veteran, heady PG who can navigate the press might be a bigger cause for concern than a good big man.

UPDATE

Almost forgot, congrats to the Tommies on the undefeated year. I didn't have comp access last night, but it looked like another steamroller. That's an impressive feat.