MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Willy Wonka]

Yuck. Talk about a stinker by the Tommies...

• MVP Scott goes 2-13 and finishes with 4 points. If his stroke is broken, he really needs to find a way to contribute in other ways.

• Who was Nicolai guarding? The lineup would seem to suggest Moses and Harris, who combined to shoot 10-15 and score 25 points. I've harped on Nicolai's defensive tendencies in the past, but can anyone who saw/listened to the game make some comments? 10 shots and 0 assists is also a little troubling.

• Where was Pedretti, the guy everyone insists is waaaaaaay better than my boy down in Winona? 1 and 2 with a Wonka-like 1-5 at the charity stripe is hardly anything to call home about...

• Did the Pointers make a point to attack Healy defensively? He had 8 points in 14 minutes...but was also saddled with 4 fouls.

[frodotwo]

Yuck. Talk about a stinker by the Tommies...

• MVP Scott goes 2-13 and finishes with 4 points. If his stroke is broken, he really needs to find a way to contribute in other ways.

• Who was Nicolai guarding? The lineup would seem to suggest Moses and Harris, who combined to shoot 10-15 and score 25 points. I've harped on Nicolai's defensive tendencies in the past, but can anyone who saw/listened to the game make some comments? 10 shots and 0 assists is also a little troubling.

• Where was Pedretti, the guy everyone insists is waaaaaaay better than my boy down in Winona? 1 and 2 with a Wonka-like 1-5 at the charity stripe is hardly anything to call home about...

• Did the Pointers make a point to attack Healy defensively? He had 8 points in 14 minutes...but was also saddled with 4 fouls.

Nicolai guarded Moses most of the game and could not stop his drives or inside shots. Moses was too strong for him. He was the only player for the Tommies that was hitting shots, but Point turned up the D in the second half and shut him down.. Healy was taken inside and beaten too often by taller players. Point is much more athletic this year than last and are very good at making adjustments  after halftime. Missed FT certainly didn't help the Tommies, but the Pointer D was stifling in the second half.

[Gacman]

Sir, my comment was more facetious than anything, but looking at the game at face-value, it is a very plausible cause for the loss.

Well, which is it? Facetious or plausible? Those two things don't go together very well, you know.

Losses happen for a variety of reasons, and when a D-3 team is leading for the majority of the game and then seems to run out of gas at the end and losing in a close one, it isn't idiotic to assume a contributing factor was jet-leg.

Nobody said that GAC's jet lag (it's "jet lag," BTW, not "jet-leg") couldn't have been a contributing factor. My point was that you didn't even mention Hawai'i Pacific at all, much less give the Sea Warriors any credit for winning the game. You gave two reasons for the outcome: GAC's jet lag and GAC's three-week layoff. For all we know from your assessment, the Gusties could've been playing the Honolulu Institute of Tiki-Torch Design.

Also, your characterization of the game is somewhat misleading. Yes, Gustavus led for the majority of the game, but the Sea Warriors held the lead continuously throughout the last 14:25 of it. Nor did it appear that the Gusties "ran out of gas," since they trimmed a twelve-point HPU lead down to four in the game's waning minutes. If you run out of gas with fourteen-plus minutes to go and cough up the lead, the other team invariably runs away with the game ... and that's not what happened last night.

That D-2 scholarship team was outplayed in basically every facet of the game except for there extremely hot shooting and GAC's cold shooting.

Really? HPU was good at putting the ball in the basket and GAC wasn't, and other than that GAC was better? That's the basketball equivalent of asking Mary Todd Lincoln, "Other than that, ma'am, how did you like the play?"

Seriously, though, don't overthink the game of basketball. The scoreboard is always the bottom line. The sport is all about putting the big orange ball through the big orange hoop. If you do it more often than the other team, you win. GAC had a lot more shots in all three scoring phases than did HPU due to better rebounding and better ball protection -- GAC shot 69 field goal attempts to HPU's 58, 26 trey attempts to HPU's 19, and 24 FTs to HPU's 14 -- and yet the Sea Warriors made five more field goals, three more treys, and only six fewer free throws than did the Gusties. The shooting percentage disparities were huge: .537 to .377 FG, .368 to .154 trey, and .786 to .708, all in favor of HPU.

The Sea Warriors did the important things better than did the Gusties. Everything else is details.

The other team earned it

That's the line you should've included in your first post. It would've warded off my pestering you like this.

but, I'm not off with my comment about the game. Not having your legs will very often lead to poor shooting.

Do we know for a fact that GAC didn't "have its legs"? One can make the opposite case -- that three weeks of rest made the Gusties fresh. A better case can be made that GAC was rusty, but HPU was coming off of an eight-day layoff itself.

Again, this strikes me as an assumption on your part that the instrumental cause of the loss was something that GAC failed to do, rather than an acknowledgment that HPU might've had something to do with that instrumental cause. Is it not possible that HPU simply stepped it up in the second half, played better basketball, and imposed its will upon the Gusties?

I don't mind the pestering. I didn't have the time to write a novel about how the game went and the reasons for a loss. I simply added a little comment on to what a few people had already said and that was that. It is an assumption, but it's not a dumb one. If you score more points than the other team, you deserve to win. Nowhere in what I have said implies anything but that. In every game though, the winning team does things that get them the win and the losing team does things which cause them to lose. I was merely speaking from my side of things.

But you can't make the case that HPU imposed there will on the Gusties. When you turn the ball over more than the other team, and you get outrebounded by a lot even though you have clear size advantages at almost every position, you aren't imposing your will. Of course you give them credit for making more shots, but when a team is imposing their will on another and is out-shooting them as much as they did the gusties, the game isn't close. For example, UST got outshot in their game by comparable numbers, why then did they lose by so much compared to GAC's game? A very good team did more than just out-shoot UST tonight. GAC traditionally is at the top our near the top in Field Goal % every year because of how patient they are and their shot selection. Knowing this, it strikes me odd when you see a shooting performance like this. What is even more telling is the number of threes taken by GAC. GAC is almost always at the bottom in 3 pt. attempts in the conference for the reasons mentioned above. They never force up a lot of threes so to shoot so many tells me they were constantly getting or being given good looks from three, and when you have Grey who was shooting 60% from three on the year and Van Sickle who is a career 43% threepoint shooter, I usually would like the gusties chances if they are getting that many easy attempts. But that's how basketball goes sometimes. You can take care of the ball, play hard, rebound, take good shots, execute your offense to perfection, and just be cold as team and lose. As a coach, you can live with nights like this because you controlled everything you possible could very well. So yes, you can execute better, play tougher defense and still lose. This is why you give the sea warriors credit, but you can also look at it and say that if we weren't so cold from the field we win that game because we did everything else we wanted to do.

The layoff comment was just an attempt to get a jab in at AO, but I have played enough basketball to know that not having your legs whether it be from jet-leg or exhaustion will cause poor shooting performances more than anything else. It isn't the only reason they lost, just one of them. And whether it was jet-leg, the layoff, or just one of those nights, the comment was aimed at pointing out that on the surface it looks as though they just shot poorly and nothing else.

Also, I don't care about HPU so talking about how they deserved to win and earned the victory is something I didn't feel like waisting my time about. I was specifically interested in GAC's point of view and how they played. If it were another miac opponent I would feel differently, but based on who they were playing and how the facts stacked up, I was interested in only speaking about things from the one perspective. Oh and the day after a 7 hour flight not counting the lay-over, your legs aren't fresh. So as you can see, my comment was a little more thought out than you were willing to look into.

[AO]

The layoff comment was just an attempt to get a jab in at AO, (referencing the bethany lutheran game)

Jab away, tonight after Northwestern took down #15 St. Norbert's in their gym, I can take it.  -- 

PS:  I would rate "fresh legs" as the fourth most important aspect of shooting at a high percentage.  The first three are mental. 

[VOJ]

Gusties drop one to Hawaii Pacific University 80-73.   They appear to have been done in by ice cold three point shooting, going 4-26 from beyond the ark.  Paulson led the way with 15 points.  http://www.hpu.edu/images/Athletics/Mens_Basketball_2009-10/hpumbb10_a30132.htm

you beat me to the punch, nites.  amazing that gusties stayed as close as they did in spite of shooting woes.  if you rebound and don't turn the ball over, you can be "broke" and still have a chance.  seth anderson continues to justify his minutes, and tyler grey managed to get up 9 shots (8 threes)  in 11 minutes!!

nice job by cardinals vs. winona state.  this is definitely a better saint mary's team that the ones to which we are accustomed.  i look forward to seeing them play on the 6th vs. vipes.

I think this game can be chalked up to the jet leg and not having played a game in about three weeks.

Really? It can't be chalked up to the fact that Gustavus Adolphus was playing a 7-3 D2 team on its home floor that features this ...

Terrific size on the part of HPU. Their starters were: 6-8 250 lb, 6-8 265 lbs, 6-6 187lbs, 6-3 205 lbs, & 6-5 190lbs.  A couple of DI transfers, one from Illinois & one of the players is a cousin of former Florida Gator Udonis Haslem.

... in its rotation?

It's never a bad idea to acknowledge the opposition when it beats your team -- especially when the opposition is a scholarship-level team and yours isn't.

oh vikings...you are teasing me again...

CMobb...Well when your Coach is NUMBER 4...what should you expect?...remember other than an appearance in two Super Bowls early in Favre's career and a total choke job in the NFC title game two years ago, when was Green Bay ever really a threat to take it all?

You're kidding me, right? Favre was absolutely magnificent in bringing Minnesota back from a seventeen-point second-half deficit, and yet you're bashing him?

Minnesota lost that game because: a) the Bears wanted it more (sounds strange, since they're out of it and Minnesota's going to the playoffs, but it's true -- the Bears were playing for their jobs next season, as well as Lovie's and Turner's); b) Minnesota's O-line ran out of gas at the end of the game and the Chicago D-line didn't; c) a guy whom Lovie Smith didn't like enough to even activate for most of the season (Devin Aromashodu) stepped up and had a huge game in the absence of Devin Hester and Johnny Knox; d) the rookie MLB subbing for E.J. Henderson made some big mistakes for the Vikings; e) Bears rookie tackle Chris Williams, one of the few bright spots for Chicago GM Jerry Angelo in recent years in terms of his draft-day decisions, turned Jared Allen into a nonentity; f) Jay Cutler had one of his all-too-infrequent good games; and g) Hunter Hillenmeyer played like the name printed across his shoulders was "Urlacher" rather than "Hillenmeyer."

Favre was the major reason why Minnesota managed to get the game into overtime at all.

Greg...My comments about #4 were more about dropping 3 of their last 4 and the "schism" in the locker room and if you don't think there is a "schism" then you don't realize how things work with the Legend...by the way being a Packer fan and watching him for a number of years closely this is not the first time he has created issues.  Yes he played well in the second half and WW is right he was due for a game losing INT.  I am not sure what deal he made with the devil to have the season he is having but I imagine it will cost him something in the end.

I also think the other assessments of the Vikes are accurate, weak secondary, Jared Allen on reputation alone gets more ink then is deserved was MIA, two tackles no sacks, I am not sure he got close to Cutler until the postgame handshake...

Number 1 seed in the playoffs in their grasp in a rivalry game and they laid an egg in the first half, nice comeback but in the end you lost to a then 5 win team, a second straight lackluster effort in a prime time game says it all...

[VOJ]

The layoff comment was just an attempt to get a jab in at AO, (referencing the bethany lutheran game)

Jab away, tonight after Northwestern took down #15 St. Norbert's in their gym, I can take it.  --  

PS:  I would rate "fresh legs" as the fourth most important aspect of shooting at a high percentage.  The first three are mental.  

That might be the UPSET OF THE YEAR!!   I guess we need to fear the UMAC now...or were the Green Knights looking ahead to tonights game with Chicago?

[Nites]

Gacman meet the:



I think you just got taken out behind it!!

  +k 

Gac, meet Sensei.....

[AO]

speaking of upsets, Where are the Piper Crazies?  Hamline takes down #8 Wheaton 69-68.  Hipp put in the game-winner with one tick left after the Wheaton captain missed a pair at the line. 

[miacsuperfan]

northwestern's win vs. #15 st. norbert's is nice, though looking at the previously unbeaten green knights schedule----you could question how good they really are.  not one team on their schedule had a record above .500 when st. norbert's played them.  nonetheless, a nice road win for nw.

the vipes win vs. #8 wheaton, on the other hand, may have a bit more luster.  wheaton had lost to #1 ranked washington u by 2, and had several other wins against teams that have been winning.  nice job by hambone on the road, with great balance in the vipe boxscore.

ust's 'stinker' is understandable vs. a great point team.  the size of the margin WAS a bit surprising, however.   if joe scott is going to win back to back mvp awards  , he is going to have to get it going pretty soon.   consistency is the hallmark of a great player----scott is really struggling with that right now.

[Gacman]

northwestern's win vs. #15 st. norbert's is nice, though looking at the previously unbeaten green knights schedule----you could question how good they really are.  not one team on their schedule had a record above .500 when st. norbert's played them.  nonetheless, a nice road win for nw.

the vipes win vs. #8 wheaton, on the other hand, may have a bit more luster.  wheaton had lost to #1 ranked washington u by 2, and had several other wins against teams that have been winning.  nice job by hambone on the road, with great balance in the vipe boxscore.

ust's 'stinker' is understandable vs. a great point team.  the size of the margin WAS a bit surprising, however.   if joe scott is going to win back to back mvp awards  , he is going to have to get it going pretty soon.   consistency is the hallmark of a great player----scott is really struggling with that right now.

Welcome to the enigma that is Hamline this year. Tons of talent, and when they put it together they have shown they can hang with and beat the best of them. On the other hand they have losses that leave you scrathing your head. Nonetheless, a nice win for the Pipers, and maybe this is a sign of more things to come.

[Drake Palmer]

Last night must have been the prelude to the blue moon that's taking place on New Year's Eve.  Numbers 1, 2 & 3, Washington, UST, & UW-Whitewater get knocked off. And the Pipes knock off #8 Wheaton 69-68.

Of the 3 top ranked & previously undefeated teams, I think one could say the biggest surprise was the Wash U loss as Transylvania came into the game with an average 7-4 record.  UW-Whitewater played a traditionally strong Whitworth team, who along with Puget Sound has dominated the Northwest conference out in Oregon & Washington the past 6-7 years.

In the matchup of #s 2 & 4, all of the factors pointed in Stevens' Point favor against UST last night - Home court game, the revenge factor for the loss to the Tommies last spring in the tourney etc.  I think VOJ & I are the only posters who have seen this year's version of the Pointers, & I knew this was going to be a tall order.  They've got strong, quick, guards, physical posts, very disciplined & are a talented team. So the Tommie loss in & of itself, came as no huge surprise, but the way they lost was very disappointing.

I still contend the Tommies need to get Tyler Nicolai to spread the floor more & distribute the ball which would make his offensive game that much more effective & dangerous.  He's easily the best ball handler on the team. Compare this to last year when he could rely on Robinson, Viau, Tuma & even McCoy to handle the ball, & help create easier looks for teammates cutting to the basket.  This year's team is still way too perimeter oriented, don't move the ball as well, & those assist numbers for the Tommies don't lie.  At this point they don't have a single player listed in the top 15 in assists or assist turnover ratio categories.  Some Tommie backers may claim it's because of their substitution style & no one is clocking enough minutes. Not true. Both Nicolai & Scott are averaging close to 30 minutes per game.

'Scuse me Willy.   We're just about past the "early stages of the season" & have roughly 2/3 of the season left to play.  Look at these numbers from last year:

UST lead the league in assists & averaged 18.97 apg.
Individually, BJ Viau was # 7 & averaged 2.81 apg, Robinson was #10 & averaged 2.71 apg.  

Then when you look at the Assist Turnover Ratio category you had 5 Tommies ranked in the top 10:
1) McCoy 3) Brett Tuma 6) Brett Ervin 9) Robinson & 10) Nicolai.

Obviously they had a pretty special season last year, but certainly one of the keys to success that this year's team could emulate  – move the ball. Part 2 for another rant – go knock some heads around.

**************************
Looks like Jekyll, of Jekyll & Hyde (Hamline) showed up last night.  I listened to the 2nd half on the net last night & based on the cheering I heard in the background, I guess our Hamline posters were out in sunny Cali cheering on the Pipes.  Nice win.  We should check the boxscore after tonight's game & see who starts.  This might have been the 8th different starting lineup in as many games.
******************
Not to be forgotten, the Oles acquit themselves quite nicely in a strong but losing effort to barely D1 UND – 69-58. Mark Torell continues his strong senior season & knocks down 19 points on 8-15fga, while Stu Neville scores 20 points & shoots 2-6 from behind the 3-pt line (huh?).  Still no sign or word about Bobby Fong. TH4L- any idea?
************
Mac closes out their portion of the nonconference schedule tonight against UW-River Falls, the Gusties play Hawaii Hilo (I anticipate a Gustie win); & the Pipes conclude the 09 portion of their schedule against Cal Lutheran.  CLU is a dangerous club & was ranked in the initial Top 25 at the beginning of the year. If the Pipes can play two strong games in a row it might signal that they've begun to turn the corner.  For now lets' call it a coin flip.  

*************

Those of you in need of a basketball fix couldn't go wrong watching the Hopkins & St. Paul Johnson HS holiday tourney championship game tonight at Augsburg.  I had a chance to take in a doubleheader last night & watched both of those teams. Both teams are ranked #1n their class division & this game should be a highlight reel type of game.  

[piperinsider]

speaking of upsets, Where are the Piper Crazies?  Hamline takes down #8 Wheaton 69-68.  Hipp put in the game-winner with one tick left after the Wheaton captain missed a pair at the line. 

WE'RE COMIN! Think the bandwagon can make it to Cali by tip off? How will the Wheaton win affect the Vipers chances of a Pool C bid come March? Hamline may finish ninth in the MIAC, but you would think wins over Buena Vista and Wheaton would get us a bid, right? IALTO.

DP - I agree about Johnson/Hopkins. That could be a doozy. Word out of my St. Cloud Tech source is that Monday's tilt with Orono was a good test for the Techies. Wohler is suited for the high school game. Trewick has his team still unbeaten with a nice win over Osseo Tuesday.

Hope everybody had a good christmas/holidays and has a safe New Years.

[columbianmaffia]

oh vikings...you are teasing me again...

CMobb...Well when your Coach is NUMBER 4...what should you expect?...remember other than an appearance in two Super Bowls early in Favre's career and a total choke job in the NFC title game two years ago, when was Green Bay ever really a threat to take it all? 

1...Chilly sucks

2...#4 has been running this offense for many more years than the coaching staff has been coaching it so i will side with #4 when he has a problem with the way the offense is being run

3...Fav-Re pulled a Kobe Bryant and went strictly with what Chilly called the entire first half...no i dont know this for a fact but when i can guess what type of play will be run 9 times out of 10 i have a pretty good feeling chilly is making the calls

4...football is the ultimate team sport...without the supporting cast it doesnt matter how good your QB is...and that is why Green Bay was not a threat...because they sucked...and they still do

[columbianmaffia]

ran into OneArmedScott last night at sallys before the gopher hoops game...he wanted to give me a hug...he didnt tell me that but i could see it in his eyes

[Gregory Sager]

This brings to mind the classic chicken-or-the egg theory.

If Favre doesn't completely suck in the first half — 36 yards, 2 fumbles — the "magnificent" second half wouldn't have been necessary. At the same time, you wouldn't be calling Favre magnificient if the Bears DB would have just caught the INT that was tipped right into his lap on the last drive.

Regardless, I think we can all agree that Chuckie's knees have to be a little tender after all the love he was sending #4's way last night...

Granted, Favre had a poor first half, but he played well enough in the second half for Minnesota to have won the game. And a tipped ball is a tipped ball; it's not necessarily the QB's fault. My point was that VOJ's taking Favre to task after the loss was misplaced. But that was before I learned that VOJ is a Packers fan.

Greg...My comments about #4 were more about dropping 3 of their last 4 and the "schism" in the locker room and if you don't think there is a "schism" then you don't realize how things work with the Legend...by the way being a Packer fan and watching him for a number of years closely this is not the first time he has created issues.  Yes he played well in the second half and WW is right he was due for a game losing INT.  I am not sure what deal he made with the devil to have the season he is having but I imagine it will cost him something in the end.

Step back and look at the big picture, VOJ. Minnesota is having a hugely successful season. The Vikings have clinched the NFC North and have a chance to draw a first-round bye, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that Brett Favre at age 40 is having one of the best seasons that any NFL signal-caller has posted in this decade. Believe me, there's gonna be twenty teams in the NFL that would gladly trade places with the Vikings, "schism" or no "schism" -- and the Bears are one of those twenty.

Then again, I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this. I've never known a Packers fan who could be rational about the subject of Brett Favre, whether Favre was wearing green or purple.

I also think the other assessments of the Vikes are accurate, weak secondary, Jared Allen on reputation alone gets more ink then is deserved was MIA, two tackles no sacks, I am not sure he got close to Cutler until the postgame handshake...

Number 1 seed in the playoffs in their grasp in a rivalry game and they laid an egg in the first half, nice comeback but in the end you lost to a then 5 win team, a second straight lackluster effort in a prime time game says it all...

I'll give you the same line that I've been giving to Gacman about the GAC @ HPU game: Very often the outcome of a game has as much to do with the other team as it does with yours, if not more. Fans are sometimes so wrapped up in their own team -- or, as in your case, wrapped up in a vendetta against a particular player   -- that they overlook what the other team is doing or has done. Chicago won that game on Monday night as much as Minnesota lost it.