MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[AO]

I disagree. Go onto some of the Kentucky or Duke chat sites. They're rife with speculation each year as to which frosh will be one-and-doners and which ones won't -- and there's more than a little disappointment on those sites when they lose a one-and-doner to the pros.

I don't see any disappointment about the one and doners that were expected to leave.  There is some disappointment about an unexpected early leaver, but the majority, especially at Duke and Kentucky have no problem with it.  They have seen the positive recruiting effect from multiple draft picks every year.

I wasn't being disingenuous at all, as I made no such claim. And I don't see where President Hemesath made any such claim, either; while he did tout Jim Smith's sterling graduation record, he never implied that it's standard issue as far as D3 head coaches are concerned. Indeed, the fact that the SJU president went out of his way to mention it seems to imply the opposite.

I guess I'm just not impressed with the graduation rate.  Like I said I doubt he's tracking players who left the team after their first year at SJU.  It's not enough anymore just to graduate from college.  What major did you take?  Internships?  Graduate school?

I realize that there are D3 players who do not live up to the oft-bandied phrase "student-athlete" with regard to their academic commitments. I'm pretty sure that Mike Hemesath realizes that, too. But, be honest, AO -- do you really think that there's no quantifiable difference between the academic achievements of the average D3 student-athlete as compared to the average major-sport D1 player at a big-time program?

I'm sure there is a difference between St. John's and Grambling, but I don't think there would be much difference between St. John's and Duke?

True. But -- and this goes right to the heart of the matter, in terms of what the SJU president was getting at -- there is no economic incentive for a D3 football or basketball player to quit school after a year, based upon his sport. And, thus, economic incentives do not distort the relationship between academics and athletics at our level, regardless of the academic standards of any given D3 institution.

If there is an economic incentive for someone to quit school, we should encourage them to do so.  As a believer in life-long learning I believe you should also go back to school if that opportunity goes away.

You're basing your case upon one guy? To invert the old cliche, the singular of "data" is not "anecdote".

Sure, but since Kentucky was singled out by Hemsath, there at least ought to be some damning evidence behind his anecdote.


All I'm saying is watch both!

[Gregory Sager]

I disagree. Go onto some of the Kentucky or Duke chat sites. They're rife with speculation each year as to which frosh will be one-and-doners and which ones won't -- and there's more than a little disappointment on those sites when they lose a one-and-doner to the pros.

I don't see any disappointment about the one and doners that were expected to leave.  There is some disappointment about an unexpected early leaver, but the majority, especially at Duke and Kentucky have no problem with it.  They have seen the positive recruiting effect from multiple draft picks every year.

I don't know where you're looking, but I see plenty of disappointment -- although you're right about the spin regarding multiple draft picks. Truth be told, those are not fun sites for me to look at, for a number of reasons.

I wasn't being disingenuous at all, as I made no such claim. And I don't see where President Hemesath made any such claim, either; while he did tout Jim Smith's sterling graduation record, he never implied that it's standard issue as far as D3 head coaches are concerned. Indeed, the fact that the SJU president went out of his way to mention it seems to imply the opposite.

I guess I'm just not impressed with the graduation rate.  Like I said I doubt he's tracking players who left the team after their first year at SJU.  It's not enough anymore just to graduate from college.  What major did you take?  Internships?  Graduate school?

That's a classic case of moving the goalposts. So now the SJU men's basketball graduation rate isn't good enough by itself to be impressive? Now the head coach is responsible for the majors his players pick, the internships they take, and the grad schools to which they apply (as well as their acceptance and graduate rates from grad school, too, no doubt)? Sheesh.

I don't think that anybody in intercollegiate athletics tracks graduation rates beyond the standard five-year measuring cycle (and the NCAA's APR only uses a four-year cycle), so it seems to me that you're demanding something unfair of SJU. If the Johnnies have had a propensity to lose a lot of players to attrition that then go on to drop out rather than stay in SJU as regular students, then there might be a case for a critic to say that Jim Smith somehow managed to cull the potential academic underachievers out of his program, but I have seen neither the evidence for that nor even any accusations of that being the case. Even Tommies fans don't badmouth SJU men's basketball in that regard, and after reading this room regularly for a decade and a half now I can attest that Tommies fans will badmouth SJU for any possible reason that they can find.

I realize that there are D3 players who do not live up to the oft-bandied phrase "student-athlete" with regard to their academic commitments. I'm pretty sure that Mike Hemesath realizes that, too. But, be honest, AO -- do you really think that there's no quantifiable difference between the academic achievements of the average D3 student-athlete as compared to the average major-sport D1 player at a big-time program?

I'm sure there is a difference between St. John's and Grambling, but I don't think there would be much difference between St. John's and Duke?

Probably not at Duke. But Grambling's not one of the two examples Mike Hemesath used. In fact, Grambling's not even a big-time D1 program. The other example Pres. Hemesath used is Kentucky, and if you're going to defend Kentucky men's basketball on the academic side then you're going out on an even thinner limb than the Jim-Smith's-graduation-rate-isn't-impressive limb. And Kentucky is certainly closer to the D1 academic norm, by any available metric, than is Duke.

True. But -- and this goes right to the heart of the matter, in terms of what the SJU president was getting at -- there is no economic incentive for a D3 football or basketball player to quit school after a year, based upon his sport. And, thus, economic incentives do not distort the relationship between academics and athletics at our level, regardless of the academic standards of any given D3 institution.

If there is an economic incentive for someone to quit school, we should encourage them to do so.  As a believer in life-long learning I believe you should also go back to school if that opportunity goes away.

I agree wholeheartedly. But that's where the rubber hits the road as far as big-time D1 football and men's basketball is concerned. If you're a blue-chip jock for whom signing an offer sheet for a D1 scholie represents nothing more than an economic incentive with regard to a future pro contract, then you're essentially ignoring a somewhat important aspect of what college is supposed to about -- you know, that little thing we sometimes call an education -- and the university is complicit in this, no matter how strenuously it protests that it isn't.

I certainly don't begrudge blue-chip jocks their chance to chase the carrot on the stick, of course. I enjoy watching pro sports as much as the next couch potato. But the fact that a distressingly high percentage of these blue-chippers are dangerously committed to pursuing the will o' the wisp that is a professional sports contract to the exclusion of everything else (especially their chance to actually gain a useful and productive education) is disheartening. For every Karl-Anthony Towns there is a long line of D1 jock dropouts who squandered their opportunity to get an education and who never made it to the Show, and while the blame lies mostly with them -- I am not a believer in the victim mentality that's common in our society today -- there is nevertheless some responsibility, up to and including actual malfeasance, from the schools that try to skate these guys through the system.

Commerce and higher education are certainly not incompatible institutions, but they have starkly different missions within society. What the SJU president intimated -- accurately, I think -- is that big-time D1 sports can and have compromised higher education's mission in favor of commerce. Teenagers who are top-drawer football or basketball players have every right to pursue their professional dreams, just as pro sports have every right to ensure their viability by utilizing a supply chain for younger players (i.e., minor leagues). But D1 sports are a faulty mechanism in terms of being those minor leagues for the pros.

You're basing your case upon one guy? To invert the old cliche, the singular of "data" is not "anecdote".

Sure, but since Kentucky was singled out by Hemsath, there at least ought to be some damning evidence behind his anecdote.

Here's the evidence. First, his central point:

As a college president, what I find even more problematic and ultimately damning of the "one and done" model, is the complete decoupling of academics and athletics, making the term student-athlete an oxymoron.

There were four freshmen on the Kentucky team last season. Only one of them is committed via scholarship to returning to Kentucky as a sophomore next year. An attrition rate of 75% is some pretty damning evidence.

As for Karl-Anthony Towns, I certainly hope that he makes good on his statement that he's going to return to Kentucky -- whether it's this fall, as he indicated, or some time in the future -- to earn his degree. It's always heartening, contra Charles Barkley, to see a big-time NBA player step up and be a role model, and Towns would certainly enhance his role-model cred by going back to school and finishing. Given his academic achievements in high school, his stable home life, and what seems to be a good head on his shoulders, I definitely don't doubt his ability to find time for classes in the midst of his busy career in order to complete his bachelor's degree. But saying it and actually doing it are two different things.

All I'm saying is watch both!

No, thanks. I realize that I'm in the distinct minority even among d3boards.com posters, but I grow less and less interested in D1 basketball and football every year. The exceptions are when there's a senior-laden team that makes a lot of noise (e.g., Wisconsin last season) or a dark horse that is obviously not a jock factory.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

All I'm saying is watch both!

No, thanks. I realize that I'm in the distinct minority even among d3boards.com posters, but I grow less and less interested in D1 basketball and football every year. The exceptions are when there's a senior-laden team that makes a lot of noise (e.g., Wisconsin last season) or a dark horse that is obviously not a jock factory.

I'm in the same boat as you, Sager. Gotten pretty tired of many things with D1. I will only watch teams as you describe or big games when there isn't much else to watch.

[Drake Palmer]

As many of you who follow MIAC hoops are aware, perennial league powerhouse and UST suffered an embarrassing loss at the hands of the lowly upstart, University of Northwestern in the first round of the NCAA tourney last spring. Great job by the Eagles, but whodda thunk?

Out of respect for the Tommie fans on this board, I decided to not harass Mose & other Tommie faithful on the board and allowed them to mourn this loss.  After several months, I decided to extend a hand across the MIAC aisle and invited Mose to join me for lunch. In my effort to cheer him up, I invited Mose to one of the critically acclaimed new restaurants in Minneapolis, Revival, which specializes in one of his favorite meals – fried chicken.  So this past Saturday, Mose took me up on this offer and we enjoyed a terrific lunch of fried green tomatoes, black-eyed peas, collard greens, & the requisite, awesome fried chicken. To top it off, Mose had a huge slice of banana cream pie that he couldn't finish and I had a golden brownie.

Much to my surprise, when it was time for the bill, Mose told me that lunch was on him. I said, "hunh?" Then Mose reminded me of an ill-advised chicken dinner bet he made earlier this year when he predicted that the 2014-2015 Tommies would reach the final four.  I had completely forgotten about this bet.  Good man up Mose.  What is this, the 2nd or third time you've had to pay off a bet regarding your beloved Tommies?    Who says Tommies alum aren't honorable? I'm sure Mose would be quick to remind me that he/we would not be making these bets if Coaches Fritz & now Tauer weren't contenders at the national level.

So, while we're biding our time until hoops season starts, or if you're looking for a place that serves a seriously delicious platter of fried chicken,Revival is the place. Who knows, this chicken might revive the Tommies' playoff success.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Great story... except I would say Northwestern is not a lowly upstart considering they went on to beat Elmhurst. Also, Northwestern has been in the mix for a few years and just happens to always draw one of the more difficult teams in the first round almost every year. Just my two-cents.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Great story... except I would say Northwestern is not a lowly upstart considering they went on to beat Elmhurst. Also, Northwestern has been in the mix for a few years and just happens to always draw one of the more difficult teams in the first round almost every year. Just my two-cents.

I doubt they would have beaten Elmhurst had not St. Norbert taken the Blue Jays to three OTs in the late game Friday.  Elmhurst was visibly fatigued throughout the game.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You don't think Northwestern could have been suspect to being rather fatigued, especially mentally from the elation, as well? They beat two good teams and have been knocking on the door for several years. Downplaying what they did on what if's and speculation doesn't always work for me. If that was the case, my alma mater was a Final Four team... if they hadn't choked in the second round back in 1997.

[Mr. Ypsi]

You don't think Northwestern could have been suspect to being rather fatigued, especially mentally from the elation, as well? They beat two good teams and have been knocking on the door for several years. Downplaying what they did on what if's and speculation doesn't always work for me. If that was the case, my alma mater was a Final Four team... if they hadn't choked in the second round back in 1997.

I wasn't meaning to downplay what Northwestern did (though I see it could certainly be taken that way), just putting some context on it.  We'll never know for sure, of course, but I'm pretty confident Elmhurst wins that game if not for St. Norbert.

You bring back great memories for this Titan fan by your choice of the 1997 tourney!

[AO]

You don't think Northwestern could have been suspect to being rather fatigued, especially mentally from the elation, as well? They beat two good teams and have been knocking on the door for several years. Downplaying what they did on what if's and speculation doesn't always work for me. If that was the case, my alma mater was a Final Four team... if they hadn't choked in the second round back in 1997.

I wasn't meaning to downplay what Northwestern did (though I see it could certainly be taken that way), just putting some context on it.  We'll never know for sure, of course, but I'm pretty confident Elmhurst wins that game if not for St. Norbert.

You bring back great memories for this Titan fan by your choice of the 1997 tourney!

Perhaps the CCIW should adopt the Friday/Saturday schedule to get ready for the tournament format? 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You don't think Northwestern could have been suspect to being rather fatigued, especially mentally from the elation, as well? They beat two good teams and have been knocking on the door for several years. Downplaying what they did on what if's and speculation doesn't always work for me. If that was the case, my alma mater was a Final Four team... if they hadn't choked in the second round back in 1997.

I wasn't meaning to downplay what Northwestern did (though I see it could certainly be taken that way), just putting some context on it.  We'll never know for sure, of course, but I'm pretty confident Elmhurst wins that game if not for St. Norbert.

You bring back great memories for this Titan fan by your choice of the 1997 tourney!

Yes... I figured you would appreciate the year. That was the only year my alma mater had that kind of chance... and they probably would have lost in the semifinals anyway

[Mr. Ypsi]

You don't think Northwestern could have been suspect to being rather fatigued, especially mentally from the elation, as well? They beat two good teams and have been knocking on the door for several years. Downplaying what they did on what if's and speculation doesn't always work for me. If that was the case, my alma mater was a Final Four team... if they hadn't choked in the second round back in 1997.

I wasn't meaning to downplay what Northwestern did (though I see it could certainly be taken that way), just putting some context on it.  We'll never know for sure, of course, but I'm pretty confident Elmhurst wins that game if not for St. Norbert.

You bring back great memories for this Titan fan by your choice of the 1997 tourney!

Yes... I figured you would appreciate the year. That was the only year my alma mater had that kind of chance... and they probably would have lost in the semifinals anyway

Well, thanks for picking that year!

I'm drawing a blank on your alma mater.  Pat of course is Catholic, and I think it is Keith who is Randy Mac, and I'm 'sure' I know yours but am drawing a blank.  As the classic aging joke goes, 'I have a photographic memory, but more-and-more often I find I'm out of film!'

[gordonmann]

Dave graduated from Goucher

[Drake Palmer]

Well, time to dust off the old password, see what's happening on the board and get ready for another season of MIAC & D3 basketball.

As is their custom, Carleton and Macalester are the first two schools to post their rosters, but in a surprise, St. Olaf has their roster posted as well.  Anything new to report out there in MIAC land? 

Carleton roster

Macalester

St. Olaf

[GoldandBlueBU]

Well, time to dust off the old password, see what's happening on the board and get ready for another season of MIAC & D3 basketball.

As is their custom, Carleton and Macalester are the first two schools to post their rosters, but in a surprise, St. Olaf has their roster posted as well.  Anything new to report out there in MIAC land? 

Carleton roster

Macalester

St. Olaf

BU has their roster posted early, in a surprise move: http://athletics.bethel.edu/roster.aspx?roster=364&path=mbball

It defaults to 2014-2015, but you can toggle to 2015-2016.  Happy to see that they finally found some taller guys...hopefully some of them can play.  Watching them get out-rebounded so painfully against longer team's like St. John's was frustrating to watch, and I'm sure frustrating for the players...the guys were in position and fighting, but never stood a chance in many rebound opportunities...

[Drake Palmer]

Well, we're getting closer to the beginning of the season.  Now there are only three remaining schools who need to post their 2015-2016 rosters, Concordia, Hamline, & St. Johns. 

I'm not sure of the overall talent level at SMU, but' it's nice to see a full complement of 18 players - all guards?    Looks like Coach Rusthoven successfully recruited the TC metro area along with rekindling the Chicago private school pipeline.

Kilroy would know better than I would, but it seems the Gusties landed a big time recruit in Marshall star, Riley Sharbono who was heavily recruited by a number of D2 schools.  Trevor Wittwer 2.0 (?) and is the current front runner for the Palmer All MIAC Freshman Name Team, and name/potential FY of the year. 
 
And according to one of my few remaining sources,the  Oles added a nice player in FY Sam Stensgard from Inver Grove Heights Simley HS. Although only 6-3, Stensgard plays more of a small forward  position.

I know next to nothing about the UST FY class, although they have a couple of solid candidates for the All-Name team.