MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

For all the MIAC naysayers that said that Hamline doesn't pay their coaching staff very well or adequately support them, it would seem Hamline AD Dan O'Brien must have polished up the powers of persuasion & coughed up a few more greenbacks.  That, or a dollar in St. Paul goes a lot further than it does in New York.

Based upon all the moaning and groaning that my brother (who lives outside of Buffalo) and my parents (who recently moved to Florida from Syracuse) have made about the cost of living and the state taxes in upstate New York, I have no doubt whatsoever that a dollar in St. Paul goes a lot further than it does in suburban Rochester, NY.

Slickyquick's response in the SUNYAC room that Drake cross-posted here does answer a lot of the questions about why Whitmore would want to leave Brockport State, in spite of the success he's had there. It doesn't really answer the question, though, as to whether or not Hamline is any better of an opportunity for him than SUNY-B'port was. Perhaps it's something that the coach will only be able to answer once he's settled in at the corner of Snelling and Hewitt and has a better understanding of his new situation.

It could be that Hamline was exactly what he was looking for. Or it could be a "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" situation in which the negatives of a current situation make a potential new situation look more attractive than it really is. It'll be interesting to get the coach's perspective on his move a year or two or three down the road.

[Drake Palmer]

It's official - Wohler to Whitmore

A couple of the lines used within the press release are practically identical to a passage from Slickyquick's post from several days ago.  It 's almost enough to make me think he was Coach Whitmore's agent, or Brockport's SID.   

[piperinsider]

In the words of Common Man:

Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.

While at Brockport, Whitmore amassed a 176-84 record, and had five 20-plus win seasons.  He currently has the most wins of any coach in the NCAA Division III East Region since 2000, and the seventh most wins of any coach in NCAA Division III basketball since 2000.

"Hamline University has a great tradition in basketball, and I look forward to bringing the program back to prominence," said Whitmore.

Whitmore's teams were State University of New York Athletic Conference (SUNYAC) regular season champions in 2000, 2002, 20004, and 2007.  They added SUNYAC tournament titles in 2001 and 2002.  His teams also made it into Eastern College Athletic Conference post-season play in 2000, 2003, 2005, and 2006 with two championship game appearances.

Ain't no stopping us now. Back on the Piper wagon. Who's drivin this year? I'll ride shotgun.

[melson]

A little birdie says if Hayes leaves, so does about three or four players.

......the team has taken a wrong turn as of late, doubtful post season, Hayes is keeping some players from walking......

[slickyquick]

Drake, I am not Brockport's SID or his personal agent. I do know him personally but most of the information that I gathered were from my sources close to the situation.

[abominable_snowman]

"Hamline University has a great tradition in basketball, and I look forward to bringing the program back to prominence," said Whitmore.

Anybody know where prominence is? Perhaps just prom for short?  Did the program ever leave

[WeRFans]

Ain't no stopping us now. Back on the Piper wagon. Who's drivin this year? I'll ride shotgun.
[/quote]

PI - There are plenty of folks who might not drive but will be ready to join in a Piper version of, "Rudy, Rudy" and encourage the underdogs.  Let's keep the MIAC competition interesting so everybody stays hungry and plays with a chip on their shoulder.

[piperinsider]

We got a coach...now I'm ready to see who suits up. I had heard some other guys might be following DeRock is leaving. Honestly, I can't even name five players on the team right now.

Petrich, no. Williams, no. Thrasher, yes. Got one.

[FPM]

So I don't normally post on the basketball board but all hey I guess I am "in the know" as far as Hamline topics go.  I graduated in 02 but I have a sibling that is going to be a junior.  I have had many conversations with coaches and athletes on Financial aid.  First with the cost increasing 10k since I graduated (and not just at HU) there is a greater financial burden on the students but not just at Hamline.  I know the financial aid that I recieved was better than the package I got from SJU and friends of mine said theirs was better than GAC or Olaf.  UST is the only school  that seemed to come up with $$$$ that was rather absurd at times.  More recently I have talked with people that have made their decision on schools based on dollars and for the most part schools are within 2k of each other and there hasn't been a set pattern of what school was passing out the cash.  But a 7-10K difference I never heard if fact my brother-in-law had a 6k difference in going to HU or the U OF M incidently he didn't choose either.

As always it's good to hear from you Willy.  It appears that I must offer some clarification. 

First off, my statement about Hamline and financial aid packages has nothing to do with defending Coach Wohler.  I think that those of us "in the know" on this message board will all agree that schools like UST, GAC and SJU put way more money into their athletic programs than say Hamline, SMU, and Concordia.   A perfect example are "leadership" and "minority" scholarships, that year in and year out get used to assist student-athletes at schools mentioned above.  Hamline does not have many of these scholarships and if they do, their value is a lot less than a comparable one at a MIAC counterpart or it is distributed to a non-athlete.

Bottom line - As an example, just look at the track record of the three schools I mentioned above over the past 10 seasons and then look at Hamline's.  You cannot tell me that $$$$ has no correlation to winning at the Division 3 level, or for that matter any other.  Coach Wohler and his staff had the program headed in the right direction, including recruiting two all-conference freshmen in Jon DeRock and Tony Thrasher.  Still, while the Pipers showed consistent improvement in his first few seasons, there was little chance, IMHO, that they would be able to hit that top three level or four on a consistent basis. 

As a final example, let's say you have a Division I or II transfer.  If he can go to UST, GAC or SJU for free or very little OR he can go to Hamline for say $7-10k/yr which do you think he's going to choose 9.9 out of 10 times? 

And the use of "Mr." is never a slap in the face.  If anything it's a compliment. 

Drake - I tried not to paint such a bleak picture, but you're right.  I hope to meet Coach Whitmore at some point this season and ask him about Hamline and why he found it so attractive.  I too hope that he did his research and that if in fact he was promised anything that the HU administration follows through. 

[Drake Palmer]

I'm afraid with graduation, transfers & coaches resigning, the Hamline barn door was left open & there might not be enough players to pull your bandwagon PI, or should I say PO (PiperOutsider)  . 

You've got Zev Kujolic, a good, athletic 2-3 type player with tremendous hops (he
had the best dunk I saw last year in MIAC ball) & limited offensive game;

Tony Thrasher a 3-4 forward, a solid scorer with decent footwork, but not a big defensive stopper;

Big Erik Gusaas, an energetic, athletic, if not slow 6-9, 6-10 post player;

And 6-5, 6-6 string bean Kory Kelzer

And from what I can recall, not a Hamline PG in sight or a lot of quickness on the bench.  The Pipes have got a couple of footballers & former hoopers that could be called into action, but I think this year will have to be a big time "let's stop the bleeding & begin the rebuilding process."  Based on the remaining talent, I think Coach Whitmore would have a tough time turning this group of hardworking plowhorses into lean, mean thoroughbreds.   But who knows, he might forge a NY connection like the Oles seem to have with Florida for their football team.  Several days ago I said the Pipes would be lucky to finish 8th in the conference, I might have to revise that to 10th.

And FormerPM is right – generally speaking, most financial aid packages at the various schools are within a couple of thousand dollars of each other.  In addition to financial aid, I think most college selection decisions come down to one or more of the following:

Location, academic programs & faculty, high school friends that may or may not be attending the same school, relationship with coaches, playing time, & success of the respective athletic programs.

[abominable_snowman]

Is this really pre-season talk in August??? awesome.

I'm way excited to see what the new kids on the block (Greiss and Whitmore and Tubby at the U) will be able to do in the next couple years. 

[localcoach]

I think times will be tough at Hamline this season.  Any time that you hire a head coach in August it's impossible for him to recruit (let alone recruit well) for the upcoming year.  Not to mention that he has to move his family from the east coast to the midwest.  Last I heard Hamline had a few decent incoming freshmen, including a young man from the Fargo area whose name mistakes me  .  Whether or not he and the others still end up on campus now that there's a new head coach remains to be seen.  Assuming everyone shows, at first glance I think Hamline finishes somewhere between 7-10 in the MIAC. 

Can anyone confirm that Brady Larson has been retained?  PI    Any other word on assistant coaches?

Drake - I must disagree in part with your statements on financial aid and college selection criteria.  First, I know for a fact that UST, generally speaking, produces financial aid packages that are 4-6k/yr better than other MIAC institutions.  That's for both athletes and non-athletes.  I can also tell you that someone like Tony Thasher, who is receiving the Presidential Scholarship (full tuition) still has to find a way to pay for room and board, books, and other cost of living necessities.  In contrast I know of others within the league that have given similar type students like Mr. Thrasher both tuition and room and board costs.

"Location, academic programs & faculty, high school friends that may or may not be attending the same school, relationship with coaches, playing time, & success of the respective athletic programs."
I agree that all of the aforementioned are important in choosing a college, but for 90% of families who are middle class you cannot tell me that the financial aid package is not one of the most important factors.  If they can save even 3k/yr to go to school that's 12k over 4 years.  The less student loans one has to take out the better. 

[Drake Palmer]

...Drake - I must disagree in part with your statements on financial aid and college selection criteria. 
"Location, academic programs & faculty, high school friends that may or may not be attending the same school, relationship with coaches, playing time, & success of the respective athletic programs."
I agree that all of the aforementioned are important in choosing a college, but for 90% of families who are middle class you cannot tell me that the financial aid package is not one of the most important factors.  If they can save even 3k/yr to go to school that's 12k over 4 years.  The less student loans one has to take out the better. 

Local - I'm not going to try & tell you that financial aid is not important.  Re-read my post:

And FormerPM is right – generally speaking, most financial aid packages at the various schools are within a couple of thousand dollars of each other.  In addition to financial aid, I think most college selection decisions come down to one or more of the following:

Location,...

Let me just say this on this subject & then I'll move on.  As both a recipient of college financial aid (scholies & loans) in the past & as a provider of college financial aid today,    college costs is certainly a big concern.  But, if middle class parents are committed to providing a MIAC college education for their children, an additional $9k - $12k, (8-10%) out of a potentially 4-year total educational costs of $120-$150K isn't going to be a show stopper.  Now, if we're talking an additional 25-30K dollars rather than the $9k-12k example I used earlier, a 50% increase in overall college costs, then it becomes a different ballgame. 

Anecdotally let me add this -- I've personally seen acceptance letters & FA award notices from Hamline, Augsburg & UST, sent to the same high school senior, & all of the aid packages were comparable.  If I recall, UST might have had a slight larger award. But the kid picked a different school - he wanted a chance to play when he was a frosh, not a soph or junior.   

I also know another young man that was offered a Dease scholarship to UST, which is a very attractive scholarship package that UST offers minority students & this student passed on it for Hamline.

Anoither kid had FA offers from UST, Grinnell, Redlands & SMU, & chose SMU. 

Another student had aid offers from UST, HAM, CORD, & GAC & chose GAC.

Yes, I will most definitely agree that the costs to attend college is becoming more of a challenge & concern with each passing year, but as of now, I don't believe the FA disparity between the MIAC schools is as significant as you would portray.  Contrary to what league coaches might say  - "It ain't always about the money Mr. Maguire!" 

If anyone is interested, here's something for your reading pleasure -  MN Private College Council Financial Aid Update

[Drake Palmer]

One other thing, then I'll shut up about this subject. 

I'm sure everyone knows some parent/s whose chest puffs out when they talk about how their son Johnnie got some minuscule basketball scholarship to West of East Chain Bumfunk University.  MIAC parents do the same thing.  Only they talk about their kids & the academic scholarship they received from the local farmers' cooperative, Lumberjack's guild, & Mrs. Torgerson's endowment she left Lutefisk College for gifted students such as Jason, or Cate to attend such & such school.  And why their son of daughter would never go to XYZ, or ABC college because blah, blah, etc.   

[Drake Palmer]

Just when I thought it's safe to log off & go home for the evening I saw this little tidbit - Show me the Money

Those are some harsh words Whitmore says about his former employer.

Mebbe Hamline AD Dan O'Brien changed his name to "Big Daddy" O'Brien after all?