MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

AO, the emphasis on in-region games is not from the 'evil' NCAA - it is a decision by d3 institutions themselves.  I'm not fond of it either, but it is what it is.  I assume the rationale is to protect against travel costs for those schools (most of the membership) who couldn't afford to compete with the richer schools (e.g., UAA, NESCAC, etc.).  But in terms of the selection criteria, the 'best' 18 pool C teams DO get in.  While using regional criteria to select a national tourney is hardly logical or ideal, as the pool C field has grown I doubt any serious candidates for the national title are getting left at home (unlike a few years ago).

[Ralph Turner]

The point isn't whether he knew or didn't know. The point is he didn't spout off with his incorrect assumptions.

Now, regular listeners to Hoopsville know this is the how the process works, and anyone who's had a team close to making the tournament is probably among the 2,500 people we regularly have listening on Selection Sunday. But I can see why you might not have heard.

While I didn't know about all of the workings of the secret rankings, I am still unclear on whether my base assumption is incorrect or not.  My assumption is that the remaining 17 pool c bids do not go to the 17 next best teams in the country.   Regional record or opponents winning percentage are not an acceptable assessment of a team compared to another team in a different region.  The only thing that accomplishes effectively that is a public national ranking system, ala the  RPI.  In other words, I don't care what UNC asheville's regional record is, they're not in if they don't get the AQ.

That's great that 2500 listened on selection sunday, but if 2800 people watched gustavus vs. st. thomas last saturday, I've got to think there's some d3 fans that don't have a good handle on how the selection process works.  there are ways to simplify it, but for the foreseeable future, they probably won't because the powers that be aren't interested in creating a higher level, more popular, basketball tournament.  the same kind of people who have turned minnesota high school basketball from 1 to 2 to 4 classes and so on. 

as to chairmanyao's comments: i attempted political humor, not debate.

In general, I believe that the 18th Pool C bid is selected from the best 8-10 remaining teams left in the country, by region.

I say 10 because there may be a couple of regions where there is a hair's breadth of difference between those two teams from that region, and that there are several regions where a school just "sits there and doesn't move."

As we fans, and the pros at D3football and D3hoops, have tried our hands at the process, we have gotten to the point where we can see why the last discussions are occurring.  We aren't the ones actually at the table, but we can comprehend the discussion that they are having.  I really hope that the Hoopsville people could do a mythical Pool C selection in mp3 archive that would fit into the FAQ, complete with regional lists to show how dynamic the process is.

As for the national RPI at this level, there is so little inter-region play, that I wonder if the models are statistically valid to the degree of specificity that we want.  UW-Whitewater is 1-1 versus the ASC.  That is not very robust.

The other good news for us D3 fans is that the Landmark gets its Pool A bid in 2010 and the UMAC and NECC get their Pool A bids in 2011.

Then we can see how those conferences really perform and two more Pool B bids move to Pool A.

[AO]

thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.  You're right, the true contenders get bids under the current system.  It's a solid national championship. 

....if Bethel gets in the big dance this year, they'll make some noise....of course I'm basing this after having only seen them play the Tommies this year, but they looked to be the best bethel team I've seen in my short span watching d3hoops.

if Northwestern manages to get in past the odd pennsylvania teams playing weaker non-conference schedules, I'm not sure they can make the noise Bethel can, but who knows.  I do know this, Northwestern scheduled a bit tougher this year and will probably pay for it.  If Northwestern doesn't put two WIAC teams on the schedule they're in the tourney.  at the same time, no, Northwestern doesn't really deserve to get in when they lose to superior/scholastica/bethany lutheran

back to your regularly scheduled MIAC conference tournament seeding discussion....

[VOJ]

3.  Willy...I am not sure if you are the kid who liked to kick the live beehive to see what would happen or if your brains are getting soft because you are clocking more time than normal sitting on them because of your injury??

Go back and listen to the game, you clearly hear Coach Smith coaching and yelling instructions from the sidelines, he also made notes on what he was seeing and led not only pregame talk, as Andy Burns said on air on the post-game show, but also made the adjustments at half time, he yelled our offensive sets and even gave the official a piece of his mind on a few occasions...so I ask, is that coaching or is he just an interested fan??  Proof is in the pudding Willy or in this case the audio, oh and he will be there on Saturday at Hutton against the Pipers...you can apologize anytime

So...you're trying to say it was "business as usual" or what? That's not what Frank the Tank had to say afterwards.

"Smith did what he could from his position while assistant Pat McKenzie handled the duties on the bench."

Call me crazy, but that seems noteworthy in the .edu writeup. Heck, it was Frank's whole angle of his story.

So if you are not on the bench it does not count?  I understand Frank's angle and yes it was different but to say Smitty was not not involved in coaching the team is not accurate.

When a manager is tossed  in baseball what happens then?  As CMOB says that is weak sauce Willy...just admit your mistake and lets all move on...and you can drool the drool of remorse into the pillow of regret tonight when you tuck yourself into bed.

Where was I wrong? Frank the Tank reported Tuesday Pat McKenzie would be coaching the Johnnies. Frank wrote the same thing after talking to a wheel-chaired Smith after Wednesday's game.

Smith was not serving as the head coach last night. Period.

.

VOJ - Man, someone's still a little ornery up there, huh? If I stuck a needle in my eye and said the Gusties were struggling, would you somehow find a way to take a personal insult in that, too?

As my boy Ma$e once said...breath, stretch, shake, let it go.

No one ever disrespected Smith's coaching skills or said he didn't deserve to be listed among the best D3 coaches ever. We essentially argued semantics and agreed to disagree. My bigger point was simply that it would be embarrassing if he "won" 700 without lifting a finger that particular day.

Since that's no longer a concern, barring another accident (knock on wood), let's all just try to move on. As mediocre as some of these contenders are this year, there are still more important things to focus on than any perceived slights you can imagine from anonymous posters on these boards.

Here are a couple...

• Gimme a few reasons why anyone should think the Johnnies have a chance tomorrow night. Honestly, I can't really come up with anything.
• There's a decent chance that either Gustavus or SJU will go into the postseason riding significant losing streaks. Which team would people rather play in the first round? Are there certain matchups that favor either of these teams?
• Who do people have for MVP right now? Is Goose still the favorite if Carleton closes the season with losses to Auggie Tech and Bethel?
• Mac's final game of the year is Wednesday against Koz's Oles, who may have thrown in the towel already. For a game between two terrible teams, this game has a certain appeal for the fatalists among us, right?

Guess  I needed to go back and get this...do you even read what you write or remember it?  You totally dissed any coaching that Smith did that night, albeit he was limited by not being right on the bench but still coached and last time I checked is listed as the head coach...now if he were not in the gym or on some type of leave your continuing comments have merrit...but that is not the case and so there is no merrit for them.

So now you are clarifying your point and re-writing history...who do you work for?  The same firm Arod employs to advise him how to deal with the steroid mess?

Lets not forget your flip comment about the loss at Hamline on Saturday..."will he take credit for that too?"  Total lack of respect, or showing your true colors?  Smitty is 74 and still involved with the program on a daily basis, not some figure-head with someone else running things.

Own it Willy...

And as for your comment about the Gusties, they are struggling and you are entitled to your opinions but understand that what you write will influence and create opinions as well, and if you want to cause yourself harm while making these opinions then go for it

On your other points...no one gave Hamline a shot either and they got within 5 points of the Tommies this year...

I am not sure who SJU matches up with better or Gustavus for that matter, the J's have beaten Carleton twice and did a great job against Augsburg last time they played, Bethel is much bigger than SJU and causes some problems with matchups, not to metion guarding Madson.

Here is another name to the MVP race...Al McCoy...he consistently is outsized int he post but always seems to make a key play or hold his own for the Tommies on the inside...Or a split vote for Zorro and Madson, if these guys were not on their teams would they even be close to the playoffs?

I would like to see Mac post a win, no one want to make history like they are and yes Willy I would even say that if Gustavus was 0-24

[AO]

Lets not forget your flip comment about the loss at Hamline on Saturday..."will he take credit for that too"  Total lack of respect, or showing your true colors?  Smitty is 74 and still involved with the program on a daily basis, not some figure-head with someone else running things.

Do you have a certain other legendary old coach in mind **cough cough gagliardi cough cough**  who might just be a figure-head while his assistants actually run the snow? 

it's a coaching wins milestone, give the johnnie old-timers a break. 

[AO]

mccoy for mvp?  how about those 8 points and 3 rebounds a game he's averaged this season, just amazing.....

[VOJ]

Lets not forget your flip comment about the loss at Hamline on Saturday..."will he take credit for that too"  Total lack of respect, or showing your true colors?  Smitty is 74 and still involved with the program on a daily basis, not some figure-head with someone else running things.

Do you have a certain other legendary old coach in mind **cough cough gagliardi cough cough**  who might just be a figure-head while his assistants actually run the snow? 

it's a coaching wins milestone, give the johnnie old-timers a break. 

AO...I would never nor have I ever said that John is a figure-head, I have been in the offices when he breaks down film of opponents, he is at practice every day during the season and makes observations and teaching points.

Didn't you just take enough crap for your playoff views...your only inviting more here

[VOJ]

mccoy for mvp?  how about those 8 points and 3 rebounds a game he's averaged this season, just amazing.....

How many Tommies games have you seen, how many MIAC coaches have you talked to?  I made a few points about why he could be considered on a team where the sum is really more than all its parts...Joe Scott is an excellent shooter, possibly the best pure shooter in the conference, and Lonnie Robinson is arguably the best defender in the MIAC.  McCoy is a tough matchup for many teams because he uses his body so well, he is a tone setter for how tough those guys are and lets not forget he has the best hair in the conference hands down.

[AO]

mccoy for mvp?  how about those 8 points and 3 rebounds a game he's averaged this season, just amazing.....

How many Tommies games have you seen, how many MIAC coaches have you talked to?  I made a few points about why he could be considered on a team where the sum is really more than all its parts...Joe Scott is an excellent shooter, possibly the best pure shooter in the conference, and Lonnie Robinson is arguably the best defender in the MIAC.  McCoy is a tough matchup for many teams because he uses his body so well, he is a tone setter for how tough those guys are and lets not forget he has the best hair in the conference hands down.

He's clever around the bucket, definitely.  but he's a liability on the defensive end and he doesn't rebound well.  this works fine against a lot of teams as the tommies have the athletes to fly around the floor, but he's just not an mvp type of player.  solid role player, can't carry his team.  you might also reconsider your nomination of mccoy if you had seen me play against him.  you have no idea the relief that came when mccoy subbed into the game for roosefelt.

[papahoops]

Wow. I check in on the board and things seem to be testy this morning.
Take a deep breath and relax VOJ. You already have a tough match up tonight, so you shouldn't get this worked up early in the day!

In response to the issues of the day Willy raised:
If the historic SJU/UST rivalry wasn't so big, I might give SJU some catching UST looking ahead to the playoffs, but that is not going to happen with these teams involved. I know there is reason "why they play the game", but UST would really need to lay an egg not to dominate this game. They have a much better team and should have plenty of motivation against their big rival at the Shoe, so an upset is VERY unlikely (although I will not issue a DP "guarantee").

Since sport MVP awards tend to go to a player on a top team, I feel that given UST's dominance of the league this year, their MVP should get top consideration. In my view, Joe Scott is UST's most valuable player. Although they have several very good players that have performed their roles very well (Viau, McCoy, Nicolai, Robinson) this year to formulate an undefeated season to date, Scott is the one UST player that can put the team on  his back offensively at critial points in the game. His stats are not as high as some other top league players, but given UST's dominance this year, he logs less minutes than other high level players on lesser teams, and UST's balanced scoring also keeps their stat numbers relatively low. That being said, if team performace was thrown out the window as a factor (which is not usually the case in sport MVP awards), I would give Zach Johnson the nod for being the "best player" in the league this year.

[sumander]

Since sport MVP awards tend to go to a player on a top team, I feel that given UST's dominance of the league this year, their MVP should get top consideration. In my view, Joe Scott is UST's most valuable player................. That being said, if team performace was thrown out the window as a factor (which is not usually the case in sport MVP awards), I would give Zach Johnson the nod for being the "best player" in the league this year.

PaPa, +k the voice of reason this morning!

[Drake Palmer]

Wow. I check in on the board and things seem to be testy this morning.
Take a deep breath and relax VOJ. You already have a tough match up tonight, so you shouldn't get this worked up early in the day!

Testy today??   Pops, I think VOJ has had the proverbial H__on for at least a week.  Coach Smith maybe a coaching legend but he's not above a little friendly kidding.  I don't think anyone on this board was ever calling into question his coaching abilities or his eventual selection to the College Basketball Hall of Fame.   Barring any unforeseen accidents, Coach Smith will legitimately break the record while on the bench.  It might not be until next year, but he'll break the record.   Just as scoring phenom Taylor Hill of Mpls South did/will legitimately break the all-time MN high school scoring record.

mccoy for mvp?  how about those 8 points and 3 rebounds a game he's averaged this season, just amazing.....

He's clever around the bucket, definitely.  but he's a liability on the defensive end 

Liability on the defensive end?!?   This comment is coming from a perennial benchwarmer at what was formerly a provisional NCAA D3 school?  As Jesus from "The Big Lebowski once said –"that's laughable."  If McCoy is a liability, then I guess some people's game is like a boil on the backside of someone's derriere or a bunion on someone's foot- useless. I'd take a 6-3 250lb athlete with heart & determination i.e. liability, over a  6-6/ 6-7 lunker anyday of the week.

While I disagree with VOJ's nomination of McCoy as a potential MVP candidate, I can practically assure you McCoy will most likely be named to one of the post season All-MIAC teams.  And this recognition won't be because of his explosive scoring prowess, although he's had few breakout offensive games this season – as have a number of other Tommies... Scott, Nicolai, Viau, Robinson, Healy, Halvorsen etc.

************
But VOJ did make an interesting fashion observation that I'd like to expand upon.  Not hair – but uniforms.  As in who has the best uniforms in the league? Sum you should have daughter #2 check this out.   

Here are my faves:

Carleton
St. Olaf
Hamline Maroon uni

Least faves:
St. John's baby blues & red (who designed those??)Sorry VOJ- that's how I see em

Augsburg's grey unis

St. Thomas could have some seriously tight looking uniforms if they contacted the designers who put together the Kansas State uniforms. Those uniforms are sweet. 

And one final item:

For Papahoops - should it be Papi, Papa, Pops, or BD –short for Big Daddy?
"Sum" short for Sumander was easy enough, & because of his encyclopedic knowledge & number of years following the league, Mose is a nice moniker for Miacmaniac. But I've been struggling a bit with Papahoops.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Since sport MVP awards tend to go to a player on a top team, I feel that given UST's dominance of the league this year, their MVP should get top consideration. In my view, Joe Scott is UST's most valuable player................. That being said, if team performace was thrown out the window as a factor (which is not usually the case in sport MVP awards), I would give Zach Johnson the nod for being the "best player" in the league this year.

PaPa, +k the voice of reason this morning!

AMEN and +K to both of you

I agree that the MVP normally goes to a player on either (A) the championship team (Espenson, Rosefelt, George, etc etc) or (B) a team that made a serious run for the title and wouldn't have been a contender without his performance (Linz).

Following that logic, and taking into consideration the way UST has rolled to the title, the MVP most likely should be a Tommie. But which one??  Scott is, as "Pops" points out, the one guy who can and has put the team on his back and carried them when needed (see win over BU for case in point). McCoy, despite (or maybe because) being in AO's doghouse, has also been a go-to guy, and has on occasion carried the team, and plays a huge role in their success. If you like defense, you have Robinson and Viau and to a lesser extent Scott and Nicolai. Viau also does so many little things, the intangibles, and the overall leadership, but is a limited scorer.

If you go with a non-Tommie, you can start by eliminating anyone on a team that didn't make the playoffs. SJU and GAC don't have a player who consistently stands out as "The Man"-- they have a nice balance of players, but no real "MVP". 

From Bethel, you can consider Moberg, who has pretty nice numbers, but also has more than a few "dog" games (3 pts and 2 boards vs. Hamline?). You also have Madson, who is a great scoring threat, above average as a defender and a pretty solid player/leader.

From Augsburg, you have Alm. I honestly expected minimal production out of him at the beginning of the season, figuring 2-3 ppg and 3-4 rpg would be about right. Instead, the kid is as big a force in the paint as anyone, and his play is a major reason the Auggies are still in serious contention for 2nd place.

Carleton, of course, provides us with Johnson as a candidate. He is running away with the league scoring race, and is (surprise) among the leaders in assists and rebounds. He will go over the 2000 point mark tonight (most likely). If scoring stats for MIAC games ONLY is used, I think he is probably the all-time scoring leader in conference history.(Frankie Alphabet has 2300+ total points, but they only played 16 MIAC games back then s about 1/3 of his total probably came in non-conference games. Take him out of the Carleton lineup and you have a pretty ordinary team—possibly a playoff team, maybe not.

I'd say the top five, in order, should be: Scott, Alm/Johnson, Viau and Madson. Alm/Johnson could be flipped depending how their teams' fare this week.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

It would be sweet if  NWern got a Pool C berth and a chance to play UST. However, NW would probably have to WIN a playoff game for that to happen, so its unlikely.  But  I'd love to see the team that produced AO try to take on UST...what is the record for most lopsided win in D-III tourney? 

[oldjammer]

Geez--good thing I am just a knucklehead hoping my gusties bring the 'a' team tonight.  Such passion on the boards lately.