MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[carletonsid]

It's a shame and disappointment the Macalester admissions office won't provide the basketball program a similar degree of flexibility in recruiting as their academic counterpart in Northfield – Carleton.  I'm sure some of the reasons for Kietzer's resignation were a result of his frustration in attempting to successfully move a student-athlete through the Macalester admissions process.  If MAC is serious about being competitive, they should meet with other "national" schools that have similar academic backgrounds & pick up some ideas for "admissions best practices" they could implement.  Schools such as Washington U, Rochester, Amherst, Chicago, Williams, etc.

Best of luck to Curt Kietzer, the Mac players and new coach.  Unless there are some changes made in Macalester admissions model, they'll need our collective best wishes & then some to even field a mediocre team.

Now that Coach Kietzer's gone, I feel more comfortable bringing this up.

This is totally not true. Obviously both Mac and Carleton are good schools, but it's much tougher to get into Carleton. Macalester actually instituted "slots" (and if you don't know what those are, go over to the NESCAC board and ask) for its teams. I'm not sure how many slots men's basketball received, but Carleton doesn't do the slotting thing in the admissions process.

I don't know why Mac has struggled, but it certainly isn't because it's tougher to get players into the school compared to Carleton. Compared to other MIAC schools, yes, but not Carleton. It's actually the opposite.

[Drake Palmer]

It's a shame and disappointment the Macalester admissions office won't provide the basketball program a similar degree of flexibility in recruiting as their academic counterpart in Northfield – Carleton.  I'm sure some of the reasons for Kietzer's resignation were a result of his frustration in attempting to successfully move a student-athlete through the Macalester admissions process.  If MAC is serious about being competitive, they should meet with other "national" schools that have similar academic backgrounds & pick up some ideas for "admissions best practices" they could implement.  Schools such as Washington U, Rochester, Amherst, Chicago, Williams, etc.

Best of luck to Curt Kietzer, the Mac players and new coach.  Unless there are some changes made in Macalester admissions model, they'll need our collective best wishes & then some to even field a mediocre team.

Now that Coach Kietzer's gone, I feel more comfortable bringing this up.

This is totally not true. Obviously both Mac and Carleton are good schools, but it's much tougher to get into Carleton. Macalester actually instituted "slots" (and if you don't know what those are, go over to the NESCAC board and ask) for its teams. I'm not sure how many slots men's basketball received, but Carleton doesn't do the slotting thing in the admissions process.

I don't know why Mac has struggled, but it certainly isn't because it's tougher to get players into the school compared to Carleton. Compared to other MIAC schools, yes, but not Carleton. It's actually the opposite.

C- Sid (as in not Hartman)  – I'll own it & admit that's my quote you're citing.   

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm reasonably close to 3 people I believe to be credible sources - a former Mac athlete/alum, a person who works in MAC admissions, & another Mac employee.  All 3 individuals have given me variations of the statement that I made.

Having said that, it could be my less than Macalester or Carleton degree educated brain misinterpreted what I heard. Or, this is the spin 2 out of the three individuals I spoke with heard from others close to the Mac basketball program.   

[abominable_snowman]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

[BETHEL34]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

[TommieFan2012]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

[Freebird]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

Good comments all around.  Hopefully Saturdays game proves to be a great one.

[Freebird]

Tommy posters: How disappointed would you be with a UST lose given you are already in such great shape for the NCAA playoffs? Or would losing the perfect season make it worse?

[abominable_snowman]

a loss would suck.  definitely more painful in my eyes because of the blip it would make on the miac season for them.

that said, if they would lose, I'd rather it be on saturday night vs in the tourney right away.

i know the boys will be pretty focused on the task at hand.  so I'm not too worried.

[VOJ]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

You want reaction from the Tommie-SJU game?  K here it is...at one point and time the Johnnies in the first half were down 14 and then made a charge to get within 3...shortly after that there were a couple of plays on the baseline in which fouls could have been called and were not,  one each by Yorky and another by Pat Bauschett, shortly after that each made a call against SJU.  Assistant Coach Pat McKenzie then chatted up the third ref Tom Mauer probably asking for some help.  I said as much on air..

By the way interesting stat from the game:  in the first 5 minutes of the half there were three Tommies fouls, none by SJU...well the memo must have went out shortly thereafter as the Js ended the half with 6 team fouls and the Tommies finished with 4...

Yorky is a fine official when it comes to mechanics, communication, demeanor on court and ability to control a game, however the fact he has two kids at UST and still reffs their games troubles me a bit, that and the fact that you can count on one hand how many times we have won a game in which he has officiated in my 10 years of working SJU games

[AO]

to be fair to yorky, he was making terrible calls in the 2nd half against the Tommies.  In a 30 point game, they found a way to call 30 second half fouls.  I didn't occur to me that he might be a homer, I just thought he was doing a really poor job of officiating in general.  I especially loved this possession in the 2nd half where all of a sudden the rules changed and the tommies style of defense was illegal.
FOUL by Tyler Nicolai                           15:53
FOUL by Alex McCoy                             15:46
                                                         15:46              SUB IN : Sam Eicher
                                                         15:46              SUB OUT: Alex McCoy
FOUL by Sam Eicher                             15:43
FOUL by Joe Scott                                15:39  50-27  H 23 GOOD! FT SHOT by Sam Paulson
                                                         15:39  50-28  H 22 GOOD! FT SHOT by Sam Paulson

and then shortly thereafter
                                                              15:05              TURNOVR by Phil Wirtjes
GOOD! FT SHOT by Lonnie Robinson             15:05  51-28  H 23 FOUL TECHNCL by the bench

[Nites]

It's a shame and disappointment the Macalester admissions office won't provide the basketball program a similar degree of flexibility in recruiting as their academic counterpart in Northfield – Carleton.  I'm sure some of the reasons for Kietzer's resignation were a result of his frustration in attempting to successfully move a student-athlete through the Macalester admissions process.  If MAC is serious about being competitive, they should meet with other "national" schools that have similar academic backgrounds & pick up some ideas for "admissions best practices" they could implement.  Schools such as Washington U, Rochester, Amherst, Chicago, Williams, etc.

Best of luck to Curt Kietzer, the Mac players and new coach.  Unless there are some changes made in Macalester admissions model, they'll need our collective best wishes & then some to even field a mediocre team.

Now that Coach Kietzer's gone, I feel more comfortable bringing this up.

This is totally not true. Obviously both Mac and Carleton are good schools, but it's much tougher to get into Carleton. Macalester actually instituted "slots" (and if you don't know what those are, go over to the NESCAC board and ask) for its teams. I'm not sure how many slots men's basketball received, but Carleton doesn't do the slotting thing in the admissions process.

I don't know why Mac has struggled, but it certainly isn't because it's tougher to get players into the school compared to Carleton. Compared to other MIAC schools, yes, but not Carleton. It's actually the opposite.

C- Sid (as in not Hartman)  – I'll own it & admit that's my quote you're citing.   

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm reasonably close to 3 people I believe to be credible sources - a former Mac athlete/alum, a person who works in MAC admissions, & another Mac employee.  All 3 individuals have given me variations of the statement that I made.

Having said that, it could be my less than Macalester or Carleton degree educated brain misinterpreted what I heard. Or, this is the spin 2 out of the three individuals I spoke with heard from others close to the Mac basketball program.   

This isn't meant to denigrate Mac or any other school, but if academic reputation is a draw for a student athlete, then Carleton has a distinct advantage over every other MIAC school and it isn't even close.  Pick up virtually any publication ranking the best colleges in the country and Carleton is on the list, and frequently it is the only Minnesota school in the top echelon of the rankings.  I rarely see Macalester on these lists.  Clearly, Carleton is considered by these various publications to be the best college (academically) at any level in the State of Minnesota.  Whether that is true or not is certainly open to legitimate debate, but regardless, Carleton's academic reputation should help it attract student athletes on a national basis.  Whether or not the school actually gets more top notch out-of-state students, I don't know.

[Drake Palmer]

This isn't meant to denigrate Mac or any other school, but if academic reputation is a draw for a student athlete, then Carleton has a distinct advantage over every other MIAC school and it isn't even close.  Pick up virtually any publication ranking the best colleges in the country and Carleton is on the list, and frequently it is the only Minnesota school in the top echelon of the rankings.  I rarely see Macalester on these lists.  Clearly, Carleton is considered by these various publications to be the best college (academically) at any level in the State of Minnesota.  Whether that is true or not is certainly open to legitimate debate, but regardless, Carleton's academic reputation should help it attract student athletes on a national basis.  Whether or not the school actually gets more top notch out-of-state students, I don't know.

I'd be real careful with that comment T-Loc (Texas interlocutor  ) cuz you could have stepped into a big pile of MN academic ca-ca.  It's a good thing there's a big championship game tomorrow night to distract us, because my inbox has already started filling up with responses to posts made last night & now yours this morning!   

[sumander]

Bethel's two chances (slim & none) left the building last night when Warty knocked off Buena Vista and Marymount beat St. Mary's md.. B.V was 6th in the latest regional rankings and is likely to get a pool C bid. St. Mary's was #1 in the latest Middle Atlantic region rankings.

If Bethel wants in to the tourney....the only way is to win on Saturday.

P.S. It looks like the WIAC will get all 3 of their ranked teams into the dance as well. 

[carletonsid]

It's a shame and disappointment the Macalester admissions office won't provide the basketball program a similar degree of flexibility in recruiting as their academic counterpart in Northfield – Carleton.  I'm sure some of the reasons for Kietzer's resignation were a result of his frustration in attempting to successfully move a student-athlete through the Macalester admissions process.  If MAC is serious about being competitive, they should meet with other "national" schools that have similar academic backgrounds & pick up some ideas for "admissions best practices" they could implement.  Schools such as Washington U, Rochester, Amherst, Chicago, Williams, etc.

Best of luck to Curt Kietzer, the Mac players and new coach.  Unless there are some changes made in Macalester admissions model, they'll need our collective best wishes & then some to even field a mediocre team.

Now that Coach Kietzer's gone, I feel more comfortable bringing this up.

This is totally not true. Obviously both Mac and Carleton are good schools, but it's much tougher to get into Carleton. Macalester actually instituted "slots" (and if you don't know what those are, go over to the NESCAC board and ask) for its teams. I'm not sure how many slots men's basketball received, but Carleton doesn't do the slotting thing in the admissions process.

I don't know why Mac has struggled, but it certainly isn't because it's tougher to get players into the school compared to Carleton. Compared to other MIAC schools, yes, but not Carleton. It's actually the opposite.

C- Sid (as in not Hartman)  – I'll own it & admit that's my quote you're citing.   

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm reasonably close to 3 people I believe to be credible sources - a former Mac athlete/alum, a person who works in MAC admissions, & another Mac employee.  All 3 individuals have given me variations of the statement that I made.

Having said that, it could be my less than Macalester or Carleton degree educated brain misinterpreted what I heard. Or, this is the spin 2 out of the three individuals I spoke with heard from others close to the Mac basketball program.   

Thanks for the reply. I will have to say that I'm speaking more in generalities in terms of whether it's easier to get into Carleton vs. Macalester and don't have any first-hand knowledge of how admissions and the men's basketball program have worked together (or not) at Mac. I also don't know for a fact that men's basketball has slots, but I do know other programs have them and assumed men's basketball received slots as well, but you know what they say about assuming...

[papahoops]

As someone who was obviously very close to the MAC program in the 2004-2008 period, I, like Drake, need to "agree to disagree" on some recent comments made on the board pertaining to MAC.

If MAC has "slots" for basketball recruits, I would like C-SID to provide some evidence of this. For the past 4 years, I am aware of MIAC players now performing well in the league that were recruited by the basketball program and then denied admission to MAC. These young men just missed meeting the academic standards of the MAC admission director and were obviously given no "slot" advantage. I KNOW about admission slots, as I was admitted and earned an Ivy League degree which probably would not have not been available to me had I not been an all state basketball player (many years ago). If these MAC basketball student athlete admission slots exist as C-SID claims, I'd like to know who they were used on in recent years???

As for difficulty of admission relative to Carleton, these schools recruit from a similar pool of student athletes. Although Carleton in typically ranked in the top 10 private schools in the nation, MAC is usually ranked around #25 in national academic ranking publications for private liberal arts colleges. They are BOTH different from other MIAC schools in their student population is not regionally focuse, that is, most of their students do not come from Minnesota and the median ACT scores for the student body are in the 30's.
This obviously creates quite a challenge in recruiting basketball student athletes, and it is clear Carleton has been more successful in that area in recent years. I do not know the details of Carleton's basketball recruiting/admissions process, and perhaps Guy Kolland has had an occasional targeted recruit not gain admission, but I question whether it has happened as often as it happened at MAC. There is no question in my mind that Kolland has a better working relationship with the Carleton admissions department than has been the case with the basketball program at MAC. Let's just say both schools have very high academic admission standards and higher relative tuition costs to other MIAC schools that present significant challenges in the area of recruiting basketball student athletes. Carleton obviously has worked with these limitations better than MAC in the recruiting area in recent years, and I will leave to those on the board to draw their own conclusions.