MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Nites]

I'd be real careful with that comment T-Loc (Texas interlocutor  ) cuz you could have stepped into a big pile of MN academic ca-ca.  It's a good thing there's a big championship game tomorrow night to distract us, because my inbox has already started filling up with responses to posts made last night & now yours this morning!   

Drake,

I stand by my comment.  I didn't state that Carleton is the best school in Minnesota for academics; simply that it is reputed to be the best by the types that throw together rankings of academic institutions.  I read these things all the time and Carleton is consistently mentioned in them.  The last one I read on the best value for well-recognized schools, Carleton was the only  Minnesota school in the rankings.  It was noted that Carleton finds a way to give aid to virtually all students who need it. 

My point is that Carleton may have an advantage over all other MIAC schools in recruiting out-of-state students who have strong academic interests as well as a desire to play college sports because of its national academic reputation.  Do you agree or disagree with that point?     Reputation and fact are two entirely different things, and whether or not Carleton is the best (if that can be quantified) college in Minnesota from an academic perspective is open to legitimate debate.

Remember, I graduated from a Minnesota college and it wasn't Carleton.   

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

You want reaction from the Tommie-SJU game?  K here it is...at one point and time the Johnnies in the first half were down 14 and then made a charge to get within 3...shortly after that there were a couple of plays on the baseline in which fouls could have been called and were not,  one each by Yorky and another by Pat Bauschett, shortly after that each made a call against SJU.  Assistant Coach Pat McKenzie then chatted up the third ref Tom Mauer probably asking for some help.  I said as much on air..

By the way interesting stat from the game:  in the first 5 minutes of the half there were three Tommies fouls, none by SJU...well the memo must have went out shortly thereafter as the Js ended the half with 6 team fouls and the Tommies finished with 4...

Yorky is a fine official when it comes to mechanics, communication, demeanor on court and ability to control a game, however the fact he has two kids at UST and still reffs their games troubles me a bit, that and the fact that you can count on one hand how many times we have won a game in which he has officiated in my 10 years of working SJU games

And how many fingers do you need to count the # of SJU games he has reffed in that stretch?

Yes, of course the refs conspired to call fouls on SJU. After all, that would be the ONLY way UST -or anyone - could possibly ever beat SJU. There is NO possibilty that SJU actually committed all those fouls, as well as all of those turnovers. Shame on those bad, bad refs

[TommieFan2012]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Amen to that. Not to sound like a prick or anything, but we don't need calls from refs to win a game, we get it done with sheer talent
Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

You want reaction from the Tommie-SJU game?  K here it is...at one point and time the Johnnies in the first half were down 14 and then made a charge to get within 3...shortly after that there were a couple of plays on the baseline in which fouls could have been called and were not,  one each by Yorky and another by Pat Bauschett, shortly after that each made a call against SJU.  Assistant Coach Pat McKenzie then chatted up the third ref Tom Mauer probably asking for some help.  I said as much on air..

By the way interesting stat from the game:  in the first 5 minutes of the half there were three Tommies fouls, none by SJU...well the memo must have went out shortly thereafter as the Js ended the half with 6 team fouls and the Tommies finished with 4...

Yorky is a fine official when it comes to mechanics, communication, demeanor on court and ability to control a game, however the fact he has two kids at UST and still reffs their games troubles me a bit, that and the fact that you can count on one hand how many times we have won a game in which he has officiated in my 10 years of working SJU games

And how many fingers do you need to count the # of SJU games he has reffed in that stretch?

Yes, of course the refs conspired to call fouls on SJU. After all, that would be the ONLY way UST -or anyone - could possibly ever beat SJU. There is NO possibilty that SJU actually committed all those fouls, as well as all of those turnovers. Shame on those bad, bad refs

[Drake Palmer]

I'd be real careful with that comment T-Loc (Texas interlocutor  ) cuz you could have stepped into a big pile of MN academic ca-ca.  It's a good thing there's a big championship game tomorrow night to distract us, because my inbox has already started filling up with responses to posts made last night & now yours this morning!   

Drake,

I stand by my comment.  I didn't state that Carleton is the best school in Minnesota for academics; simply that it is reputed to be the best by the types that throw together rankings of academic institutions.  I read these things all the time and Carleton is consistently mentioned in them.  The last one I read on the best value for well-recognized schools, Carleton was the only  Minnesota school in the rankings.  It was noted that Carleton finds a way to give aid to virtually all students who need it. 

My point is that Carleton may have an advantage over all other MIAC schools in recruiting out-of-state students who have strong academic interests as well as a desire to play college sports because of its national academic reputation.  Do you agree or disagree with that point?     Reputation and fact are two entirely different things, and whether or not Carleton is the best (if that can be quantified) college in Minnesota from an academic perspective is open to legitimate debate.

Remember, I graduated from a Minnesota college and it wasn't Carleton.  

Rankings also depend upon which publication you happen to be reading & the day of week -  Princeton Review, US News & World Report, Newsweek ,etc.

"I also graduated from a Minnesota college and it wasn't Carleton."   The same holds true for me & I might add, my alma mater was not a public institution. na, na, na, na, boo, boo

Lets hold this dscusssion until after the NCAAs when we've got plenty of dead air.   In the meantime we've got a ball game to dissect, smack to talk & unfortunatelyfor me, work to get done on a snowy Friday AM. I'll be back.

Thanks to Sum for throwing his weight around regarding at large bids. Interesting upset in corn country, & with the WIAC all but assured of getting 3 teams into the dance, Bethel needs to win on Saturday night to get to the dance.

My pet peeve - people constantly whining about refs.  I understand the occasional missed call, it happens, just like players missing shots or assigments. You make the comment about the bad call, vent your frustration, you move on.  I also know there are some games  when refs are absolutely horrendous, but usually it's a patchy spot within the game, not the entire game. The way some people carry on around here you would think every game was an officiating nightmare.

GAC fans & most other posters I'm not lumping you into this small category of posters.  Certain fans sound beat before they even step foot on the court with a seeming victim mentality - "the refs are out to get us." c'mon sack up. 
 

[BETHEL34]

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night's game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

[/quote]

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!
[/quote]

That is not the case...he was indeed refereeing the BET\UST game at the Shoe and he was absolutely terrible.  I wasn't going to say anything as I don't want to make excuses, but I bet he made 12 calls for UST compared to 4 for Bethel.  At one point I was counting it was so bad.  He gave Madson his second foul in the first 5 mins of the game on a terrible call. And then Vavra comes in and is playing really well and Yorky gave Vavra both his fouls in the first 3 mins he was on the floor.  That put both of them on the bench for the majority of the first half...am I making excuses for the loss, no, but man he was lopsided.  I guess it makes a little more sense now.  

[piperinsider]

I'm going to have to do some investigating, but if Westie ever reffed any Hamline/Gustavus games, now I understand why we were never able to beat the Gusties when I was in college and the few years afterward?

Hmm...the Pipers are winless at the Shoe? Has Yorky worked all of them?

Oh wait, these claims are ridiculous. I've umpired games in Hutch, and I can say that I never made a call in favor of the home team just because I live here. Should Big 10 official Mike Cannon not be allowed to work a Minnesota game because he lives in the state?

[Nites]

"I also graduated from a Minnesota college and it wasn't Carleton."   The same holds true for me & I might add, my alma mater was not a public institution. na, na, na, na, boo, boo

That's okay, Drake, I also have a degree from a private institution located outside the great State of Minnesota.   

GAC fans & most other posters I'm not lumping you into this small category of posters.  Certain fans sound beat before they even step foot on the court with a seeming victim mentality - "the refs are out to get us." c'mon sack up. 

I've seen a number of teams get beat because they focused more on the poor officiating than on taking care of business.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

I'm going to have to do some investigating, but if Westie ever reffed any Hamline/Gustavus games, now I understand why we were never able to beat the Gusties when I was in college and the few years afterward?

Hmm...the Pipers are winless at the Shoe? Has Yorky worked all of them?

Oh wait, these claims are ridiculous. I've umpired games in Hutch, and I can say that I never made a call in favor of the home team just because I live here. Should Big 10 official Mike Cannon not be allowed to work a Minnesota game because he lives in the state?

and MLB ump Tim Tschida (CDHS, UST) gets his share of Twins games and no one calls foul

GAC fans & most other posters I'm not lumping you into this small category of posters.  Certain fans sound beat before they even step foot on the court with a seeming victim mentality - "the refs are out to get us." c'mon sack up. 

I've seen a number of teams get beat because they focused more on the poor officiating than on taking care of business.

Agreed, Nites.  If you're going to worry about the refs, go sit in the stands

[Drake Palmer]

Ok this is my last post until lunch.  Thought of the Day: 

Sack up and man up Fellas!

[Freebird]

and MLB ump Tim Tschida (CDHS, UST) gets his share of Twins games and no one calls foul

Does he have two sons involved with the Twins organization?

[papahoops]

Nites,
Although you seem to want to put Carleton in a class by itself, I would group both Carleton and Mac as schools that should have an advantage recruiting out of state athletes due to the academic reputation and recognition factor of these schools throughout the country. Both schools typically have a significant number non-Minnesota players.

What is interesting is that Carleton's recruiting advantage versus Mac in recent years has been recruiting and admitting more quality local athletes. Even if a school has a national reputation, successfully recruiting local athletes is critical to success. Local athletes typically have parents that like to see their kids play, so a local "national" school has a built in advantage over those halfway across the country. Carleton has tapped into this local pool of talent more successfully than Mac in recent years, and this will need to change in the future if MAC wants to address their current low basketball position in the MIAC.

[papahoops]

On to good current basketball topics as Drake has suggested. I often hear a lot of whining about MIAC refs, but my experience is they very rarely impact the outcome of MIAC games (other than the infamous Asian Sensation). The only situation where a bad ref hurts really hurts you is if they take a particularly key player out of game with a couple of quick questionable calls. That can really influence the outcaome of a game. This was not the case on Wednesday night at the Shoe.

Another thought from that game I did not express earlier was my admiration for the determination and effort on the part of the Gusties in the second half despite having a rough night. It reflects well on the players and the coaching staff.

Ready for more action tomorrow

[VOJ]

Actually, he has 2 sons that go here, but from what I have seen, he has for the most part been a decent ref.

Boy that sounds impartial...

So how does one get to be a ref in the MIAC anyway and does anyone watch over them to see how they are doing? Do they get graded at the end of the season?

1.  officials are evaluated by coaches. 
2.  officials are evaluated by assignors. 
3.  there are probably some other miac folks that put their 2 cents in as well for ratings. 

some if it is who you know, but you have to put in some time as a ref.  At a certain time, you put yourself out there to be seen and if you impress the observer - you're in.

i've had a couple run-ins with the "yorkys".  In my experience they  came across as very good guys, with a lot of respect for the game, and viewed wearing the stripes as a practically sacred duty.

I am sorry, but if you have any relation to the school whether it is being an alumni, or you have kids that go there, or even down to working at the school at some point,  you should not be able to ref/ump any sporting event for that school. 

I have yet to read one person on this board besides a Tommie backer that says Yorky is a fair and decent ref...of course you are going to say that if you are a Tommie fan.  I am sure Yorky is a good person, but you can't say that having two kids attending St Thomas doesn't play in his mind when he is on the court.  Absolutely ridiculous that he can ref such a big game like last night’s game...very poor MIAC very poor.  Let's just hope for Bethel's sake that he isn't there Saturday night...but something tells me that he will be.

Ok, so I am a Tommie fan (obviously, hence the name) and I do think that it is strange that they have him reffing UST games.  he has been a ref for longer than his kids have been in school here, so I dont think he should just be let go, but I do think that he should be reffing different games.  With that said, I don think that he has done a bad job reffing. He also did the SJU game, but I havent seen anybody complaining about that.  But just in case you bethel fans were wondering, he is not doing the game on saturday, his sons already bought him tickets to the game.  just something to keep in mind, he didn't ref either of the other two UST/BET games either.  I am hoping for a good solid game on Saturday, with plenty of emotion and excitement.  I expect my boys Nicolai, McCoy, Scott, Robinson, and Viau to throw it down though.  Good luck Bethel, and whoever wins, they obviously deserve a spot in the NCAA tourny, and I will be rooting for them to make a deep run!  I hope that Bethel gets a bid even if they lose, lets show the NCAA just how good we are!

You want reaction from the Tommie-SJU game?  K here it is...at one point and time the Johnnies in the first half were down 14 and then made a charge to get within 3...shortly after that there were a couple of plays on the baseline in which fouls could have been called and were not,  one each by Yorky and another by Pat Bauschett, shortly after that each made a call against SJU.  Assistant Coach Pat McKenzie then chatted up the third ref Tom Mauer probably asking for some help.  I said as much on air..

By the way interesting stat from the game:  in the first 5 minutes of the half there were three Tommies fouls, none by SJU...well the memo must have went out shortly thereafter as the Js ended the half with 6 team fouls and the Tommies finished with 4...

Yorky is a fine official when it comes to mechanics, communication, demeanor on court and ability to control a game, however the fact he has two kids at UST and still reffs their games troubles me a bit, that and the fact that you can count on one hand how many times we have won a game in which he has officiated in my 10 years of working SJU games

And how many fingers do you need to count the # of SJU games he has reffed in that stretch?

Yes, of course the refs conspired to call fouls on SJU. After all, that would be the ONLY way UST -or anyone - could possibly ever beat SJU. There is NO possibilty that SJU actually committed all those fouls, as well as all of those turnovers. Shame on those bad, bad refs

Mose take it easy...someone wanted reaction to the SJU-Tommy game so I provided my view...in the end the fouls that were or weren't called did not matter...I thought I wrote that but apparently did not.  I know I came in and wrote about the defense and overall play of the Tommies...crediting them for each win...and nary a mention of the officials...

As for Yorky...going back through records on the SJU website from 2001-2002 on up...2-7 is the record I have come up with from the records that are available...not everyone keeps great records of who the officials are.   By the way that includes both Tommies games this year and a loss at GAC a few years ago where he told our asst, "I couldn't call a foul on that last drive" which would have put SJU at the line with a chance to at least tie or win...and a tough playoff loss to Hamline at home...

The guy I really should fear is Steve Mackowske...1-8...

They may not be iron clad stats but at least I can back it up Mose...

And you guys are right its not poor officiating that costs teams games, but I have seen some interesting trends that make me wonder...interesting comments on the Bethel-UST game that Yorky reffed, if they are true...you just have to wonder...

[larry_u]

Just a reminder for anyone who wants to listen to this game but isn't willing to make the drive into St. Paul or deal with parking, etc..

Pat Colman and myself will be broacasting the MIAC Championship game live on D3hoops.com tomorrow night.  So if you don't want to make the trip, sit back, relax and listen to the game on your computer.

http://www.d3hoops.com/audio/

[sumander]

I often hear a lot of whining about MIAC refs, but my experience is they very rarely impact the outcome of MIAC games (other than the infamous Asian Sensation).

Finally had enough of this crap about officials! Having worn the stripes for a considerable length of time I feel I can speak safely for (most) officials. No one goes into a constest with the attitude they are going to screw one team or the other!! If I was ever in a situation, which I have been, where my home town was involved I would bend over backwards to make sure I was impartial. Often to the point of being more harsh on my home town!

Every time you put the stripes on you are asked to make any number of judgement calls. These situations arise way too rapidly for you to ponder....gee which call is more beneficial to the school I have a particular allegiance with. You make a split second decision right or wrong an move on...

I have absolutely no problem with an official working a game for a school that he has an offspring attending. You are talking about honest, professional people who are trying to their best.

You are standing on a very slippery slope when you start impunging the integrity of an official. Be very careful.