MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Drake Palmer]

Ringing cell phone:  ring, ring, ring.



After several rings, the voicemail picks up & in the background a recording begins to plays the song "CandyMan" by Sammy Davis Jr.  After a few lines from the song are heard, a voice comes on and says "Hey this is Wonka, leave a short message & I'll call you back when I'm good & ready."



Caller:  


Willy, Willy Wonka? Hey, this is Palmer, Drake Palmer.  Remember how you said earlier in the week you'd argue anybody, anywhere, anytime, or something like that?  Well, there's this new poster on the board & he's calling out the loyalty of one of your colleagues.  Plus he's talking some semi-hysterical nonsense about 3 MIAC teams making it to the dance, and, he's questioning the NCAA tourney creds of the coaches in the MIAC.  I guess a national championship game finalist, a couple of final 4 appearances, several elite eights pale in comparison to a hot shot coach out of a traditionally weak region who made a couple rounds of 16 & 1 elite 8.

24-7 seems like a good poster with fresh enthusiasm & ideas, but mebbe you could help him with his history & perspective.  


I'll hang up the phone & listen.

[piperinsider]

IALTO

[huhoops]

So to recap - Why the perception difference??  This is going to be a CRAZY year - the Pick-em board winner will need to get their own 900 number after the season and start their own bookie line...   

The difference in comparison in pretty obvious. St. Thomas has won the last 7 out of 10 conference championships. Hamline has made the playoffs 1 out of the last 10 seasons (and gotten last place in 3 of the last 10). Steve Fritz has been MIAC coach of the year 6 of the last 10 years. No Hamline coach has been named coach of the year for decades. St. Thomas was undefeated all the way to the elite 8 last year. Hamline won 9 games all season. No doubt--Whitmore has assembled a very competitive team this season--but for now that's all they are is competitive. Over the last 10 years St. Thomas has been dominant, they have earned their respect.

Maybe the MIAC will get a second and third team in the tournament. Got to imagine the NCAA voting board will be impressed with the BU win over Nebraska Christian 

I'm a Hamline fan but agree with Drake that this whole thing needs to be kept in perspective. Both teams should be in the playoffs and have the possibility of being competitive with anyone in the conference. That's really all that can be concluded at this point.

HAM-MAC
Would a couple of the Piper posters cool it on the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" 5-0 routine?  You've played 5 home games. Let's see what happens when you go on the road this week. The majority of posters would say this Hamline team has really improved. They'll get plenty of chances to show just how much improvement or not has taken place.  The Oles could be tough, Cobbs on the road is always a challenge, & that's a tough tourney they're entered in over the holiday break in California.  Potential matchup against a top ten club in Wheaton. Finish the first turn of the season schedule with a 4-0, or even 3-1 record in the 4 remaining games, & other people will really start to take note.

Agreed. Completely agreed.

[bballfan247365]

Not trying to stir the pot or offend - just trying to figure it all out....

I guess I am too old to know all the inside jokes of the board and have a tendency to call it as I see it.... (right or wrong)

I appreciate the complete passion for the board but also know that there is a tendency to take shots "from the cheap seats". (That is a general statement as a whole - not a shot at anyone) 

The perception is that the coach is the one who stirs the pot, when truthfully the coach is the furthest one from the pot.  If you look at the success of this conference it has been due (in a large part) to the price tag that administrations have placed on athletics.  There are two schools who learned EARLY that if you win in athletics it promotes your campus three times for one dollar you spend...

The elephant in the room is the ENORMOUS budgets St. Johns and St. Thomas spend on athletics - and we are not speaking just facilities.  The bottom line especially in Men's basketball and football is MONEY followed closely by Tradition.  If a coach KNOWS his financial aid department will be able to out package anyone in the state - then it makes it that much easier to get the best players for your level. (Notice I said FOR your level not AT your level.)  I believe there are many coaches now, in the past and in the future that have a great winning percentage - Thanks in part to their administration.

You win in D3 with D2 players.  You win in D1 with NBA players and so on and so on...  If your son was on scholarship would it matter if it was a full academic scholarship compared to an athletic scholarship??  All I know is that a bill showing up with a price tag of $40,000 that says PAID - sure looks good!!!! 

So when "Boosters" the people that are there to support the program take shots or question a coach - be sure to send the president an email as well since for the most part that is who controls the programs.  To use Hamline or even Augsburg or even mac as an example - they have been through how many coaches in both football and basketball - and are just NOW able to compete??  So all of the coaches before the current staff were bad??  And then throw in no tradition because of lack of commitment form other areas???  That is TOO MUCH ground to make up...

So as we head through the season - my point of view will always be that of a person who walked various sidelines for over 20 years, knowing that what we see on Monday - Wednesday and Friday is not always the big picture.  I love the passion directed against other schools - like no matter what I do the Johnnies will always turn my stomach..  That is the passion, however I will be the first one (no matter how hard it may be) to give Coach Smith his due...  700 - that is crazy!! 

DP - some inside stuff on how this works and what is real and what is not - would be helpful...  I have been around the block so to speak and my eyesight and perceptions may not be what the used to be, hell -  I went to school when it was the College of St. Thomas...  But not when it was an all boys school - however... maybe I would of gotten done sooner if it would of been an all boys school!!

Also my guess on the national playoff experience earlier - I was thinking the new Mac staff would have that nailed down... 

Again - the type of conference or region a coach coaches in - is not in their control - so to call an area a weak region is not really fair either...   

It would be nice for us fans to see more regional games - not Nebraska Christian per say - but to have a WIAC-MIAC challenge or something would be cool..  But with a 20 game conference schedule that can't happen if the coaches want to be in any kind of Holiday/In-Season Tourney.. 

Also beyond their control...

[Nites]

Happy Friday everyone...thought I would post about tomorrow's matchups...

Bethel @ St. Mary's...The short-handed Royals who opened with SJU now take on SMU on the road, an SMU team that is 1-0 and looking at achieving 1/3 of the wins they had all last year in conference in the first two games...will Bethel's defense which is number one in the conference in FG% and turnover margin keep them in the game until they figure out who has the hot hand to win it?  Will the Cardinals keep maturing behind the Holland-Wright combo in an almost must win game because of road trips to St. Peter and St. Thomas to finish out the first four of the conference season?  I thnk Wright and Holland prove to be too much IF 60% of the Bethel starting lineup is still out along with 6th man JD Robinson.


St Olaf @ St. Thomas Oles conference opener...Tommies turned it on in the second half for a solid win in their opener...Will Jaryan get his 22 that he has been averaging or will he face a stingy defense designed to stifle his play and therefore take away any chance to win this one?  The Tommies are number 2 in scoring defense and the best shooting team of the early season, deadly combination, they also dominate the boards, makes for a tough afternoon in St. Paul for the Oles.


Mac @ Hamline ...Pipers let a 10 point lead slip away in the second half in droping their first home game at Hutton...will Mac be able to take advantage of a generous Piper team that is LAST in turnover margin?  We are starting to learn about Mac, they were in the SMU game to the end, but something tells me they stepping up in class regarding their opponent and who will match up with Ray Brown, and who will keep Carl Hipp off the glass?  Mac is last in rebounding margin...Pipes pound the Scots inside in a PG-13 rated game.

Concordia @ Gustavus...Call me crazy but I think the Cobbers get to the free throw line more than GAC's 1st conference opponent Carleton, by the 10 minute mark of the 1st half.  Post play will be key with all the beef each team has, bit of an edge to the GAC guards  could be enough along with homecourt advantage to put the Gusties over the top...intersting that the Cobbers are better from long range than the Gusties...will the Gusties be able to hold Fraase in check like the Tommies did or will he dominate Paulson and crew?  I think GAC makes a play late to win a tight one at home...

Carleton @ SJU...Defense on one of the best guards in the conference in Sutherland will be key...he has hurt SJU in the past.  Interesting stat is that there is not one player from either team is in the top 11 in scoring in the conference.  Rossett and Sutherland will need help from someone in the scoring column, Johnnies had an issue with turnovers in their last game in the 1st half and were better in the second half...2nd of a three game homestand for SJU to open the conference season

VOJ  Prophet - Great analysis.   +k

[Gregory Sager]

Again - the type of conference or region a coach coaches in - is not in their control - so to call an area a weak region is not really fair either...

Yes, it's beyond their control, but noting that doesn't obviate the fact that the East Region from whence Nelson Whitmore came is weak compared to its seven sister regions. Don't believe me? Here's a list of the East Region's Final Four teams over the entire history of the D3 tourney:

2002: Rochester (fourth place)
1994: NYU (second place)
1992: Rochester (second place)
1990: Rochester (national champion)
1988: Hartwick (fourth place)
1986: Potsdam State (national champion)
1985: Potsdam State (second place)
1982: Potsdam State (second place)
1981: Potsdam State (national champion)
1979: Potsdam State (second place)
1977: Oneonta State (second place)
1976: Plattsburgh State (fourth place)
1975: Brockport State (fourth place)

In order to reach the Final Four, one or more of your region's representatives have to beat the representatives of at least one other region in the tourney, and in the case of the teams from the northeastern corner of the country (where distances are much smaller between schools), sectionals can include teams from three or even four regions. Note how the East Region has fared over the past two decades: Four East Region teams have reached the Final Four, and one of them has won it. And all four of those teams wore the colors of the UAA's two East Region schools, Rochester and NYU; UAA programs both recruit and compete nationally rather than regionally. In fact, if you take away Jerry Welsh's SUNY-Potsdam dynasty and that anomalous '88 Hartwick team from the equation, you'd have to go all the way back to the dinosaur era of D3 to find any success by non-UAA East Region teams. And that's just pathetic.

(As a qualifier, I should point out that Hamilton had some great D3 teams back in the day. But that was when Hamilton was a NESCAC school, before the NESCAC allowed its basketball teams to participate in the D3 tourney.)

The Northeast Region's NESCAC has a lot to do with the obstructions that stand between the East Region and a trip to Salem, but it's not just the NESCAC. D3 basketball in upstate New York just isn't very good as compared to other parts of the country, and as someone who grew up there it pains me to say that.

The East Region is weak, 247365.

Also, when you speak of the MIAC getting three teams into the tourney, keep in mind that at-large bids (Pool C) are selected on a national basis. In other words, the MIAC needs a mighty strong non-conference resume, plus total internal domination by three teams and three teams only (because the league plays so few non-conference games) in order to garner two Pool C spots. It's never been done before; the MIAC has never sent more than two teams to the dance in any given year.

It would be nice for us fans to see more regional games - not Nebraska Christian per say - but to have a WIAC-MIAC challenge or something would be cool..  But with a 20 game conference schedule that can't happen if the coaches want to be in any kind of Holiday/In-Season Tourney.. 

Also beyond their control...

True. The only way you can free up more schedule slots for non-conference play would be to either shrink the league or modify the double round-robin somehow (by, say, reducing it to a single round-robin in the case of two opponents per team per year on a rotating basis, the way that the MWC does it, or to split the league into divisions and play intradivision double round-robins and interdivision single round-robins, the way that the NAthC does it).

Nebraska Christian wouldn't be a regional game under any circumstances, since it's not a D3 school. However, Nebraska Wesleyan would be a regional game for a MIAC school.

[Willy Wonka]

Drake - Apologies for the slow response, but I just saw your urgent Everlasting Gobstopper signal in the night sky. Between selling my body to science in NoDak, working all weekend and watching Favre suck...it's been a rough little stretch for the candy man.

Anyway...we all know I love arguing, but I'm going to take the high road on this one. It's just not worth my time to argue with someone who can barely transfer his ideas into cohesive thoughts in an online forum. Surprisingly, I have better things to do with my time.

PS - His basic premise is flawed anyway. When was the last time SJU actually mattered in hoops? Back in 2000 with Keating and Bigalke?

[gacbacker]

If you look at the success of this conference it has been due (in a large part) to the price tag that administrations have placed on athletics.  There are two schools who learned EARLY that if you win in athletics it promotes your campus three times for one dollar you spend...

The elephant in the room is the ENORMOUS budgets St. Johns and St. Thomas spend on athletics - and we are not speaking just facilities.  The bottom line especially in Men's basketball and football is MONEY followed closely by Tradition.  If a coach KNOWS his financial aid department will be able to out package anyone in the state - then it makes it that much easier to get the best players for your level. (Notice I said FOR your level not AT your level.)  I believe there are many coaches now, in the past and in the future that have a great winning percentage - Thanks in part to their administration.

If this is the case, why does Gustavus tend to out perform St. Thomas and St. John's in the Director's Cup Standings?

[VOJ]

Drake - Apologies for the slow response, but I just saw your urgent Everlasting Gobstopper signal in the night sky. Between selling my body to science in NoDak, working all weekend and watching Favre suck...it's been a rough little stretch for the candy man.

Anyway...we all know I love arguing, but I'm going to take the high road on this one. It's just not worth my time to argue with someone who can barely transfer his ideas into cohesive thoughts in an online forum. Surprisingly, I have better things to do with my time.

PS - His basic premise is flawed anyway. When was the last time SJU actually mattered in hoops? Back in 2000 with Keating and Bigalke?

Actually the Johnnies made it to the NCAA tournament in 2006-2007 losing at Stevens Point in the second round, they also have been in the MIAC playoffs the last 4 years, not as long a streak as your beloved Gusties but they have been in the top half since back to back 8-17 years early in the decade.  Wonka the anti-Johnnie venom is getting a little old...I think you need to re-invent yourself.

By the way...nice comment on Favre...typical Viking fan, watch that first step off the bandwagon it can be a doozy...lay blame where it should be laid, with the offensive line that did not open ANY holes for AP or protect Favre as he had been and the defensive line which gave up 113 on the ground and was pushed around all night, and was there even one grass stain on Warner's uniform?   Face facts you have a mediocre at best secondary...IF an O line can give a solid QB like Warner time he will pick you apart, New Orleans would have scored close to 50 last night.

[Gacman]

Some interesting games on tap for tonight. All five of the games look like they could be very good. Here are some things I'm going to be watching tonight:

STO vs. HAM
Can Hamline live up to some of its early season hype and beat solid team. Although STO isn't a candidate to make the playoffs, with as much as they have returning they will never be an easy out as they showed on Saturday.

Bethel vs. MAC
This mathup might be the most intriguing to me for several reasons. One, can MAC pick up its first conference win since the 07-08 season, and two, we will see how far Bethel has dropped off if they can't pull off a win on the road.

St. Mary's vs. GAC
This game scares me as a gustie fan. St. Mary's is clearly improved and the athleticism of wright and holland is a mismatch against GAC. GAC is more athletic than last year, but they still don't have someone who can match-up and shut down Wright. If the gusties can take advantage of their size, they will be ok.

St. Thomas vs. AUG
This will be a good test for the tommies tonight. Augsburg is a good team with good guard play so the tommie pressure shouldn't be too much of a problem. I also like how Grimm matches up inside with Halvorsen. Both athletic and long. Should be interesting.

CAR vs. CON
This might be the most important match-up of the night. With a good concordia team starting out with two tough road games and the last one being a heart-wrenching loss to the gusties, they need a win tonight so they don't dig themselves too deep of a hole in terms of getting to the playoffs. CAR needs this to back up a good win in Collegeville, and show that their win against the Johnnies wasn't an aberration, but a sign of more things to come.

Anyway, I think the teams in bold win tonight.

[John Gleich]

...watching Favre suck...

And to think, Vikings fans for years would have cheered this!

By the way...nice comment on Favre...typical Viking fan, watch that first step off the bandwagon it can be a doozy...lay blame where it should be laid, with the offensive line that did not open ANY holes for AP or protect Favre as he had been and the defensive line which gave up 113 on the ground and was pushed around all night, and was there even one grass stain on Warner's uniform?   Face facts you have a mediocre at best secondary...IF an O line can give a solid QB like Warner time he will pick you apart, New Orleans would have scored close to 50 last night.

I wouldn't be too hard on the Viking O-line... at least they're not the Bear's or Packer's O-line!

[carletonsid]

Wabbit — What can I say? They looked bad. Like, very bad. It was painful to watch most of the game. Plus, your boys clearly were gassed in the second half. But it's hard to blame Kalland for sticking with his starters. Check out his bench production: 0-5 FG, 0 points, 3 boards, 1 assist, 8 turnovers in 51 minutes.

Check out those numbers again. Do you really want to argue with me about this? As everyone knows, I'm more than willing

And just wait until UST unleashes the hounds on those Carlie guards. Nance could finish with 10 steals if Fritz gives him some extra run. Mark my words, it won't be pretty.

DP - I already told you. He went on the Kate Moss diet.

Who's arguing Willy Wanker? I thought I was just adding some commentary...
Let's see what I said...

• I hear that Kalland installed a new offense 2 days prior to the GAC game. -  Fact
• That might account for the 17 TOs by the Knights. – Fact
• Typically the Knights don't turn the ball over like that. – Fact
• Those are some pretty smart boys – Fact...Harvard of the Mid-West!
• They will figure it out and turn it around. – Cautiously optimistic

Take a chill pill 

I'll grant you the new offense thing (if it's actually true...carletonsid?), but your turnovers bit is overplayed.

Is 17 turnovers uncharacteristic? Perhaps, but not when you consider the circumstances. The Carlies have averaged 10.5, 12.3 and 11.3 over the last three years. The five offensive fouls they were called for against the Gusties account for the difference — it wasn't exactly sloppy outside of those calls, it was just ugly (both ways). The three taken by Seth Anderson were textbook and will probably get him some more PT moving forward. That's just good defense.

I like Kalland and the Knights more than most on here, but they have a very low ceiling this year IMO. They lack a natural scorer and don't have any depth to speak of. That's just reality.

No knowledge of the new offense. I did call the game that night, and most of those turnovers were unforced (save for the "charges") and the offense seemed out of sync. Very atypical of the Knights, and GAC is very solid fundamentally on defense but hardly the type of team in its current composition to get out and pressure/deny the wings. Good, solid ball pressure, but not the in-your-shorts, deny everywhere type of defense.

No doubt the Knight youngsters are going to need to mature, but it's only early December. The Knights are playing three rookies (Sawatzke, Theisen, and Goetz) and a sophomore (Grinnell) who saw virtually no clock last year. I think they'll look very good at times (second half vs. Wartburg, at SJU on Saturday) and really bad at other times. The one thing that bodes well is their defense--allowed 55 vs. both Gusties and Johnnies. IF (and that's a big if at times) they can find enough offense, I think they're a playoff team.

The last thing I'll add about all this chatter regarding three teams in the NCAAs, is Hamline for real, etc., is that it's early December. You don't want to start 0-3 (unless you're the 2006-07 Knights), but playoff teams and positioning are decided during the dog days of middle January and February when teams are worn down, battling injury and playing 6 games in 13 days. After UST, I think the teams that figure out their identity, how to play consistently well and on the road will rise to the top, just like always.  Outside of UST, I think it's a total unknown how the next five shake out, and every night is going to be a grind. It may not be pretty basketball, but I think for us purists, this year will be extremely exciting to watch. I know I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of great hoops the next 3 months.

Just my $.02.

[localcoach]

I had some time last night to peruse through the MIAC stats at this early juncture and thought I would offer a few observations.

-Carl Hipp is leading the league in points - 20.8, rebounds -11.8, and blocks -2.8 per game.  Even more impressive is the fact that Mr. Hipp's points don't include a single three pointer.  Could it be that a Piper is in the early lead for MVP  *The other strong candidate appears to be Aaron Burtzel.

-Tyler Nicolai is leading the Tommies in scoring and truthfully it's not even close.  Anyone see this coming  

-SMU's backcourt of Wright and Holland are both averaging over 35min/gm.  Does anyone else see them tiring over the long term  

[Willy Wonka]

Ok, you dragged me into it, but know that I come kicking and screaming.

Hamline is 3-2. It's two losses came against Elmhurst (3-2) and Augsburg (4-0). It's three wins came against teams with a combined 9-9 record, including relatively close victories over a down Northwestern team and an abysmal Mac program. It may be progress, but let's not start the world on fire quite yet.

As for Hipp...the stats I'm looking at have him 7th in scoring (18.5) and 5th in rebounding (9.0) in conference, which is all that really matters. For all the love he's been getting on here, what's the difference between he and SJU's Burtzel? 15.5, 10.0, 4.5 assists, 2.5 steals and 68% shooting for the Johnnie. Burtzel is better in everything (and top 5 in the league in all but pts) except points and blocks, while also leading the league in minutes played.

The better storylines here might be the disappearance of Fraase and Van Sickle, two AC players a year ago. Fraase has gone from 15.6 and 11.4 with 50.4% shooting to 8.0 and 9.5 on 35%. Granted, it's a small sample size against two quality opponents...but he's also shooting just 41% on the year. That's gotta be a cause for concern for my MVP dark horse from the hinterlands.

Van Sickle is an even bigger enigma right now, though his struggles are a little easier to sweep under the carpet since GAC is "rolling." But his numbers are straight out of Nightmare on Elm Street. He's averaging just 3.5 points on 16% (3-18) shooting in conference games. He's being outscored by a bench player who wears a t-shirt! The best 3-point shooter in the league a year ago is currently 0-7 in league games and 1-12 overall. As I mentioned last year, it's not like he brings a ton else to the table (1.0 reb, 2.0 ast, 0 steals/blocks). It puts Hanson in an interesting bind — do you play an unproductive senior more minutes in hopes he breaks out or do you start cutting back his clock until he begins producing? Personally, I'd like to see Wirtjes be more aggressive to fill that scoring/shooting void.

It's not in the same echelon, but what's going on with the "real" MVP, Joe Scott? I would hope even Uncle Sid agrees he doesn't look like Big Ten material right now 11.0 points, 38% shooting and 16% from deep? He's still getting steals, but it's not like his rebounding and assist numbers are anything special. The Tommies are a lot easier to guard if Nicolai is the only real threat from distance, though Scott seems to be attacking the basket more with his shots not falling — 10 FT attempts in two conference games.

[Drake Palmer]

Good recent posts & observations by VOJ, GACman, CARLSID, Local & WW.

Carl Hipp & Aaron Burtzel would be good choices for MVP but if you're looking at a potential MVP, what about David Olson over at Augsburg? 18.8 ppg, 48%FG, 52% 3FG, 94% FT, 2.75 apg.

So far, he's been playing lights out this season & his undefeated team is on a collision course with the league's other undefeated team UST.  Big early season matchup tonight. And the Augsburg coaches know it. I've seen bits & pieces of 3 UST games & the Augsburg coaches have been at every single game.  

Now compare Olson's numbers with his counterpart, Joe Scott at UST.  A part of my concern watching UST this year has been Scott's early season struggles, & he has been struggling.  Although he's averaging a respectable 10 ppg , his statistics are troubling - 38% FG & a very chilly 30% 3FG. ** 

I've noticed that the Tommies seem to be their trying their hand at a version of the Wisconsin swing offense which gives Scott a chance to try & post up what should be a smaller defender.  

I also realize the UST coaches want to get all of their younger backups valuable game time experience, but IMO they might want to consider developing a little more continuity with their offensive units.   With better flow, Scott might be able to shoot his way out of his slump & Tyler Nicolai could work on distributing the ball a bit more.  Scott certainly has the ability to turn this around.  The good news is that Scott's offensive woes haven't seemed to affect his attitude and ability on the defensive side of the ball.

It could be a barn burner at Si Melby tonight.  Too bad I have a late work meeting, but I might be able to catch the 2nd half or watch the webcast.

** WW - don't you think this early in the season with only 2 conference games having been played, you have to go with overall stats to get a better picture of what's going on?