MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[AO]

I think their is an important destinction to make. True both teams best freshman are from the metro, but almost none of those players were on GAC's radar. Gustavus because of it's tradition doesn't have to rebuild. They simply just reload. Because of this they can be choosy on who they recruit. This last year isn't necessarily relevant because if there was someone from southern minnesota worth going after, they would have made a strong attempt to get this player. There wasn't these types of players to go for last year. Of all the Miac schools GAC does the best job at recruiting "Out State" talent, which includes southern minnesota. 8 out of the Gusties top 11 are outstate players, not metro, and 6 of those would be considered southern minnesota. The point is, just as transfers like going to UST to be on a winning tradition that's located in the metro, quality southern Minnesotan players will look to go to GAC first before Bethany because one loss doesn't change the prestige and tradition of a college.

The other important distinction I'd add is GAC wants players that are looking at NSIC schools. Bethany Lutheran wants players that are looking at GAC. For GAC, the difference makers in its program are those kids that are getting serious looks/offers from the DII schools. For Bethany Lutheran, its difference makers are the kids that are getting looks from GAC.

AO, the UMAC schools are going to win a few games here and there vs. the MIAC. But until the UMAC consistently competes and wins games vs. the MIAC, I'll consider it an inferior league and I think it impossible to make an argument otherwise. Heck, my Knights were struggling until St. Scholastica came to town on Saturday. 26-0 run midway through the first half=ball game.

how about some names?  I believe Bethany is the one with the most recent transfer from the NSIC, Andy Wills.  Bethany and Gustavus are 2-2 in the most recent 4 years, and they are both recruiting the best players possible.   If Gustavus is recruiting from a totally different pool of players, they've yet to prove it on the court.

[Drake Palmer]

Gee, I really hate piling on, but...

I don't know if anyone else has posted this, but since AO decided to bring up the annual MIAC stomp-over the UMAC highlight show (discussion  ), I thought I would check on some numbers.

If I didn't miss anything, the MIAC & UMAC have played each other 13 times this season.  There are 2 final matchups scheduled for later on this week - Carleton vs. Bethany Lutheran on Thursday, & Concordia vs. Presentation to close out the pairings on Saturday.  Current record:  MIAC 12 - UMAC 1.  

The lone statistical anomaly was MAC's loss to Northwestern, but even the resurgent Scots have a winning record against the UMAC with a 2-1 record.

In the 13 games played thus far, the average score was MIAC 77.6 & UMAC 60.6 for a whopping 17.0 point winning margin.
***
Unless someone else does it beforehand, once we reach the end of the holidays, I'll do a breakdown of how the MIAC has fared in preseason play.  (Just checking Greg  )  I should say - non-conference play for the 09-10 season.

[VOJ]

I think their is an important destinction to make. True both teams best freshman are from the metro, but almost none of those players were on GAC's radar. Gustavus because of it's tradition doesn't have to rebuild. They simply just reload. Because of this they can be choosy on who they recruit. This last year isn't necessarily relevant because if there was someone from southern minnesota worth going after, they would have made a strong attempt to get this player. There wasn't these types of players to go for last year. Of all the Miac schools GAC does the best job at recruiting "Out State" talent, which includes southern minnesota. 8 out of the Gusties top 11 are outstate players, not metro, and 6 of those would be considered southern minnesota. The point is, just as transfers like going to UST to be on a winning tradition that's located in the metro, quality southern Minnesotan players will look to go to GAC first before Bethany because one loss doesn't change the prestige and tradition of a college.

The other important distinction I'd add is GAC wants players that are looking at NSIC schools. Bethany Lutheran wants players that are looking at GAC. For GAC, the difference makers in its program are those kids that are getting serious looks/offers from the DII schools. For Bethany Lutheran, its difference makers are the kids that are getting looks from GAC.

AO, the UMAC schools are going to win a few games here and there vs. the MIAC. But until the UMAC consistently competes and wins games vs. the MIAC, I'll consider it an inferior league and I think it impossible to make an argument otherwise. Heck, my Knights were struggling until St. Scholastica came to town on Saturday. 26-0 run midway through the first half=ball game.

how about some names?  I believe Bethany is the one with the most recent transfer from the NSIC, Andy Wills.  Bethany and Gustavus are 2-2 in the most recent 4 years, and they are both recruiting the best players possible.   If Gustavus is recruiting from a totally different pool of players, they've yet to prove it on the court.

I am not sure about other MIAC schools but BETHEL has a recent transfer from the NSIC, Taylor Hall from Bemidji State...I know he was a coveted recruit by more than just the Royals.    He is injured right now but some feel he could be an all conference type player when healthy. 

AO...give it up... your UMAC game is weak sauce on an MIAC court where it's a "man's game b____"

[Gacman]

I think their is an important destinction to make. True both teams best freshman are from the metro, but almost none of those players were on GAC's radar. Gustavus because of it's tradition doesn't have to rebuild. They simply just reload. Because of this they can be choosy on who they recruit. This last year isn't necessarily relevant because if there was someone from southern minnesota worth going after, they would have made a strong attempt to get this player. There wasn't these types of players to go for last year. Of all the Miac schools GAC does the best job at recruiting "Out State" talent, which includes southern minnesota. 8 out of the Gusties top 11 are outstate players, not metro, and 6 of those would be considered southern minnesota. The point is, just as transfers like going to UST to be on a winning tradition that's located in the metro, quality southern Minnesotan players will look to go to GAC first before Bethany because one loss doesn't change the prestige and tradition of a college.

The other important distinction I'd add is GAC wants players that are looking at NSIC schools. Bethany Lutheran wants players that are looking at GAC. For GAC, the difference makers in its program are those kids that are getting serious looks/offers from the DII schools. For Bethany Lutheran, its difference makers are the kids that are getting looks from GAC.

AO, the UMAC schools are going to win a few games here and there vs. the MIAC. But until the UMAC consistently competes and wins games vs. the MIAC, I'll consider it an inferior league and I think it impossible to make an argument otherwise. Heck, my Knights were struggling until St. Scholastica came to town on Saturday. 26-0 run midway through the first half=ball game.

how about some names?  I believe Bethany is the one with the most recent transfer from the NSIC, Andy Wills.  Bethany and Gustavus are 2-2 in the most recent 4 years, and they are both recruiting the best players possible.   If Gustavus is recruiting from a totally different pool of players, they've yet to prove it on the court.

Wills is an exception for reasons that are not my place to say on a board like this. All I can say is, do you really think he transfered to Bethany because he would rather play there than UND. Don't think so.
Yes gustavus is 3-2 in the last 5 years agains Bethany. They just beat them 69-40 if you forgot already.
Van Sickle was seriously looking at MSU at Gustavus. Paul Blacklock was looking at WSU at Gustavus.
To say they are recruiting the best players possible isn't all true. When you are a D111 school recruiting becomes tricky because you are at the bottom in terms of pecking order for recruits. Coaches aren't going to waste time chasing kids who are undecided that will most likely go D11 or higher. They focus on kids who may have the talent to play at higher levels but have been overlooked or overshadowed. So even at this point now their are lot of players out there that would be nice to get and try recruiting but are a waste of time. The key is to find players like Zach Johnson, Trevor Wittwer, Doug Espenson, and Bryan Schnettler who could clearly play at a higher division, but don't for whatever reason. If Bethany was recruitng these types of players and getting them, along with the rest of the UMAC, there wouldn't be such a desparity in the records.

As for Bethany, they had Wills who was better than anyone GAC put on the floor last year, which is why you can steal a game from a team with deeper talent. 4 years ago they had Mayfield who was more athletic and better than anyone GAC put out on the floor that year as they won on a buzzer beater. But look at this last game they just played. Gustavus' bench alone, which are all freshmen and sophomores, outscored Bethany's entire team on saturday. So if you say they are recruiting the same players from the same pool, GAC must be getting the better ones as of late.

[Nites]

I am not sure about other MIAC schools but BETHEL has a recent transfer from the NSIC, Taylor Hall from Bemidji State...I know he was a coveted recruit by more than just the Royals.    He is injured right now but some feel he could be an all conference type player when healthy. 

AO...give it up... your UMAC game is weak sauce on an MIAC court where it's a "man's game b____"

VOJ, Gac and Drake - 3 on 1 is not a fair fight, so I'm going to join in an aid AO with our definitive response to your meaningless facts and figures:

                                       

[Buddo]

I'm sorry Gacman, but there's no way WSU was looking at Blacklock!

[Gacman]

I'm sorry Gacman, but there's no way WSU was looking at Blacklock!

I'm not saying they recruited him hard and he just chose us over them, but at one point they took a look at him, and decided to go in a different direction.
Is that so far fetched when he is taking minutes away from a player who had small D1 looks?

If you are a quality player, NSIC teams will at the very least be in contact with you. I mean SCSU and MSU both contacted me but then decided to go in another direction and rightfully so. I'm just saying that even being on a team's radar at D11 school speaks to the quality that a player is and who D111 teams want to recruit.

[AO]

rather than quoting everybody, I'll just respond to everybody at once.

Yes, the UMAC is definitely down this year and are getting their butts kicked in most games.  When comparing conferences and recruiting it makes sense to go back 4 years to get a handle on how things compare.  Gustavus and Bethany have been pretty evenly matched recently, and that says to me that they must put pretty similar talent on the floor.  Who cares after the game who had the most potential NSIC recruits.  The freshman Bethany recruited from southern Minnesota saw that Bethany had beaten Gustavus 2 of the last 3 years, and that likely played a role in their decision.

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

[VOJ]

rather than quoting everybody, I'll just respond to everybody at once.

Yes, the UMAC is definitely down this year and are getting their butts kicked in most games.  When comparing conferences and recruiting it makes sense to go back 4 years to get a handle on how things compare.  Gustavus and Bethany have been pretty evenly matched recently, and that says to me that they must put pretty similar talent on the floor.  Who cares after the game who had the most potential NSIC recruits.  The freshman Bethany recruited from southern Minnesota saw that Bethany had beaten Gustavus 2 of the last 3 years, and that likely played a role in their decision.

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

Those two wins SJU picked up over Mn Morris in 06-07 helped secure a Pool C bid, so I guess they counted then...

Nites...I was just responding to a posted error on the board, much like Tony Rialli on PTI to correct those who made mistakes.  However some men and their conferences need to be reminded about their limitations.  Really it was Gacman and Drake vs AO which is still not a fair fight, who started this one anyway??? 

[AO]

rather than quoting everybody, I'll just respond to everybody at once.

Yes, the UMAC is definitely down this year and are getting their butts kicked in most games.  When comparing conferences and recruiting it makes sense to go back 4 years to get a handle on how things compare.  Gustavus and Bethany have been pretty evenly matched recently, and that says to me that they must put pretty similar talent on the floor.  Who cares after the game who had the most potential NSIC recruits.  The freshman Bethany recruited from southern Minnesota saw that Bethany had beaten Gustavus 2 of the last 3 years, and that likely played a role in their decision.

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

Those two wins SJU picked up over Mn Morris in 06-07 helped secure a Pool C bid, so I guess they counted then...

Nites...I was just responding to a posted error on the board, much like Tony Rialli on PTI to correct those who made mistakes.  However some men and their conferences need to be reminded about their limitations.  Really it was Gacman and Drake vs AO which is still not a fair fight, who started this one anyway??? 

But did those games matter as much to Morris?  Most UMAC teams were setting goals to win the conference and/or the conference tournament.  The games against the MIAC were only tune-ups, and played no part in getting a better seed in the only post-season available for Morris - the UMAC tournament.

There was no error, this was a bethany vs gustavus debate, so to add that Bethel has a NSIC transfer was off-topic.

[VOJ]

rather than quoting everybody, I'll just respond to everybody at once.

Yes, the UMAC is definitely down this year and are getting their butts kicked in most games.  When comparing conferences and recruiting it makes sense to go back 4 years to get a handle on how things compare.  Gustavus and Bethany have been pretty evenly matched recently, and that says to me that they must put pretty similar talent on the floor.  Who cares after the game who had the most potential NSIC recruits.  The freshman Bethany recruited from southern Minnesota saw that Bethany had beaten Gustavus 2 of the last 3 years, and that likely played a role in their decision.

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

Those two wins SJU picked up over Mn Morris in 06-07 helped secure a Pool C bid, so I guess they counted then...

Nites...I was just responding to a posted error on the board, much like Tony Rialli on PTI to correct those who made mistakes.  However some men and their conferences need to be reminded about their limitations.  Really it was Gacman and Drake vs AO which is still not a fair fight, who started this one anyway??? 

But did those games matter as much to Morris?  Most UMAC teams were setting goals to win the conference and/or the conference tournament.  The games against the MIAC were only tune-ups, and played no part in getting a better seed in the only post-season available for Morris - the UMAC tournament.

There was no error, this was a bethany vs gustavus debate, so to add that Bethel has a NSIC transfer was off-topic.

AO I have to ask...what is at the center of the universe you live in?  Do you and the people who live there pay taxes?  Is everyday bright and sunny and 75 degrees?  Is this a commune situation or do you survive on your own?

I could hit you with the old line "you play to win the game", or "if you can't win why bother showing up?"

Now that I know the UMAC logic for nonconference games I will ask Smitty to schedule more of them, then we can say to them since these games don't mean anything to you, how about forfeiting them and we will just hold a scrimage, maybe I can coach one of the teams with my right hand man Foges and PMac and Smitty on the other bench...yea that's the ticket. 

As for the transfer...if that is the base for your reasoning for making Bethany Lutheran a better situation over GAC...again I shake my head. 

[Drake Palmer]

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

Good luck.  A UMAC team will need to get a D1 or D2 type player & surround him with good supporting talent to make any type of post season noise. Otherwise, the UMAC post season success will mirror that of teams such as Aurora from the Nathcon.  They won their league last year, had the pleasure of coming to MN to play UST in the first round of the NCAAs & got absolutely buried 96-73. And it really wasn't even that close. If I'm not mistaken, the NathCon or it's predecessor's league winners have never advanced beyond the first round. 

Gman brings up a great point about recruiting. Almost without question, the top D3 schools, and I'm talking in MN & nationally, have a blend of players who were projected as D1 or D2 type of players. Or, were players who developed late in high school (Augsburg's Devean George, WIAC's Rich Melzer from River Falls) & end up playing D3 ball.  A couple of those types of players along with a solid mix of savvy, D3 talent can go a long way in their respective conference & on the national scene.  Look at Gustavus & their dominance of the early-mid 2000s with Doug Espenson, Tim Brown & the TeBrake brothers; or UST with Rosefelt, Keating, Sweeney & one of my favorite lunch bucket players – Joey Shimek.  I'd also add GAC's Phil Sowden as another favorite lunch bucket type of guy.

[Willy Wonka]

There was no error, this was a bethany vs gustavus debate, so to add that Bethel has a NSIC transfer was off-topic.

Since we've got some dead time between game, does anyone want to humor AO with an NCAA football-style breakdown of the two programs in question with regard to recruiting?

Even taking AO's blatant bias into account, I don't think there's any question which team comes out far, far, far ahead.

PS - I'm referencing a video game, MM, and it's not played on Atari  

[Drake Palmer]

BET34 -

I see you signed in on the board. What's up with Taylor Sparkman, Hall & Robinson?  Inquiring minds want (need  ) to know. 

[AO]

I'll go back to the one at a time method...

AO I have to ask...what is at the center of the universe you live in?  Do you and the people who live there pay taxes?  Is everyday bright and sunny and 75 degrees?  Is this a commune situation or do you survive on your own?

I could hit you with the old line "you play to win the game", or "if you can't win why bother showing up?"

Now that I know the UMAC logic for nonconference games I will ask Smitty to schedule more of them, then we can say to them since these games don't mean anything to you, how about forfeiting them and we will just hold a scrimage, maybe I can coach one of the teams with my right hand man Foges and PMac and Smitty on the other bench...yea that's the ticket. 

As for the transfer...if that is the base for your reasoning for making Bethany Lutheran a better situation over GAC...again I shake my head. 

I'm not saying Morris was resting starters as if the game didn't matter to them.  Everybody plays to win.  When comparing conferences, let's start at a point where both conferences are playing in the same post-season.  Also of note to this discussion: It's been a little different for Northwestern the past couple of years as all of the games have counted towards our NCCAA ranking, allowing Northwestern to get better seeds in the regional tournament and advance to the national tournament 2 of the past 3 years.

I'll leave the MIAC vs UMAC debate alone until next year when the UMAC gets the AQ and the games really start to count.

Good luck.  A UMAC team will need to get a D1 or D2 type player & surround him with good supporting talent to make any type of post season noise. Otherwise, the UMAC post season success will mirror that of teams such as Aurora from the Nathcon.  They won their league last year, had the pleasure of coming to MN to play UST in the first round of the NCAAs & got absolutely buried 96-73. And it really wasn’t even that close. If I'm not mistaken, the NathCon or it's predecessor's league winners have never advanced beyond the first round. 

To be fair to Aurora, I've got to point out the the Tommies were killing everybody last year - I was at the MIAC semifinals where the gusties got drilled 90-50. 

There was no error, this was a bethany vs gustavus debate, so to add that Bethel has a NSIC transfer was off-topic.

Since we've got some dead time between game, does anyone want to humor AO with an NCAA football-style breakdown of the two programs in question with regard to recruiting?

Even taking AO's blatant bias into account, I don't think there's any question which team comes out far, far, far ahead.

PS - I'm referencing a video game, MM, and it's not played on Atari 

How about this for a breakdown:
Jan. 2 2007 7:00 PM  at Bethany Lutheran  L, 87-85 
Nov. 18 2008 7:00 PM  at Bethany Lutheran •  L, 77-67