MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[VOJ]

VOJ - Ain't no crow to eat. Sum threw out a question, I followed up & made a friendly challenge out of the question, & the Contender hit a home run. Where's the need for crow eating?

And unlike other posters who (ahem) say +k  , I actually clicked, gave him the K, & will do so for the rest of the week. Some people aren't that petty.

Jonkey Kong Baby!

I believe you said his 1000th post would be a waste pitch??  That is slighting him a little bit...or challenging him as you put it.  I gave him +K as well, he deserved it, nice work on the photo shop or whatever you would use for that...

VOJ -do you have ADD? What was the sentence RIGHT, DIRECTLY BELOW THE SENTENCE  ABOUT A "WASTE PITCH"...

C'mon you can read it.  I'll help you.   It said & I quote ....


AO - the judges are waiting, mouse buttons poised to click -  +k, or smite, you decide.   


And in case you were wondering the Purple highlight is for his alma mater - Northwestern.

I might have to enlist the help of young Mr. AO or Sum to assist me with my next milestone post.  I've had an idea I've been sitting on.   

come on Drake...we all know you were expecting him to waste it...so since he backed your boy Jonkey Kong he is now your favorite son...and purple may be the color of Northwestern but we also know it is sometimes the color of your shades and maybe of your alma mater, and no I am not talking about the Tommies...

...Burtzel's value was stated above and while he might not have the high-flying game Brown does, he does what he does well, and he plays a true team game doing what needs to be done.

That training started early on during his years under legendary Hall of Fame Rocori coach Bob Brink and has continued under the instruction of the Johnnies coaching staff.

I do think the Johnnies would be a playoff team without Burtzel, but why even think that nightmarish thought??

Two things.

1) I see you're making sure you know who butters your bread.  I'm glad you you didn't use the phrase "mentoring & tutelage by the caring, experienced Johnnies coaching staff." I would have chucked up my breakfast. 

2) Are you SERIOUS???  And did you take your meds this morning??? The Jays are barely limping into the playoffs with a 10-8 record & yet you claim they could be a playoff team without Burtzel??  Tell your boss you're sick, go home & lie down.  You've obviously totally succumbed to the new strain of flu virus "I can't see clearly Johnnie" flu.  I'm sure there must be a good medical facilities up in the St. Cloud area.  Wow!

Here is the thing we will never know, how the team would have adapted without him, who would have stepped up and filled in...how much would the offense have changed without him, that is all I am saying, there is talent on the roster, would they have put it together, who knows, plus with all the hating that seems to go on on this board, a little positivity was needed....

wow some of you smiter's are touchy

[Willy Wonka]

Former Carleton assistant coach Cory Johnson was just on Family Feud. He was about the only one from his family who could get anything right as they lost 3 of the 4 "rounds"...

[carletonsid]

Former Carleton assistant coach Cory Johnson was just on Family Feud. He was about the only one from his family who could get anything right as they lost 3 of the 4 "rounds"...

Cory is now a graduate assistant over at Western Illinois, BTW. Working under Jim Molinari, who of course was at Minnesota for three years in interim head coach during the debacle known as the 2006-07 season. Former Goph Wade Hokenson is also on the staff.

[papahoops]

IMO poy comes down to 3 players, but really only 2.  Brown leads th league in scoring (nearly 2 points more than 2nd) 19.4 ppg and 8 rpg, Burtzel 14.5 ppg and 10 rpg, Nicolai 14.2 ppg and 1.9 spg.  I understand UST is #1 but Nicoali really should not get it. 

1 Brown
2 Burtzel
3 Nicolai
IMO

Burtzel is still a no brainer. I know his numbers are going down and teams are focusing on shutting him down, but he is still leading the conference in rebounding (tied with Fraase @ 10/game), field goal percentage (63.5 %), assists (4.8/game), and he is 10th in scoring(13.7/game) and 3rd in steals (1.5/game).

I have a bias because I have seen HU play more than I have seen anyone else this season, so I have seen Brown on his best and worst nights. I have seen Burtzel three times and every time he has impressed me more. Every time he is out of the game, SJU is worse. Although Brown is hugely beneficial the majority of the time, I have seen him work to HU's detriment as well (more so early in the season). Also, a major factor to be considered is the fact that Brown has Hipp. Teams have to respect both of them which takes some of the individual pressure off of Brown. It has become obvious over the last few games that teams are focusing all of their energies on taking Burtzel away, which I believe has led to SJU's struggles lately. All in all, I think Burtzel is just a little bit more important to the success of his team.

Hamline goes from near the bottom of the MIAC standings to a playoff bid and within a couple of wins away from the second spot in one year and you're saying the biggest piece of the Vipers puzzle isn't the most important player to his team in the league?

I understand that Hipp is almost equals with Brown in that conversation in terms of scoring/rebounding, but does Carl make his teammates better? No. He is a catch and turn guy. I haven't seen a ton of games, but he is not much of an inside-out guy. Ray on the other hand makes Carl better. And the rest of his team to be exact. Many posters have stated that the Vipers are at their best when Brown can penetrate and find the open shooters and get shots in the lane.

Isn't that what the most valuable player is? Take out Ray and Hamline is a non-playoff team. Take out Nicolai or Burtzel and both UST and SJU still make the playoffs. Brown is flat out the best player in the league and I think the coaches reward Hamline and Brown for their improvement and plus its his *senior year.

I will chime in supporting PI on the Brown for POY argument. Statistics aside, I believe has has more impact on the outcome of games than anyone in the league. Burtzel is a stat machine and a very nice all round player, but IMO he does not have the capability of putting a team on his back the way Brown can. Nicolai is a very good scoring guard with the ability to hit big shots in clutch situations and deserves strong consideration. Brown, however, is a much more difficult defensive matchup due to his size and all round game. Let's face it, Brown is a D1 caliber athlete playing at the D3 level. If he wasn't the most dominant player in the league, something would be wrong.

[piperinsider]

IMO poy comes down to 3 players, but really only 2.  Brown leads th league in scoring (nearly 2 points more than 2nd) 19.4 ppg and 8 rpg, Burtzel 14.5 ppg and 10 rpg, Nicolai 14.2 ppg and 1.9 spg.  I understand UST is #1 but Nicoali really should not get it.  

1 Brown
2 Burtzel
3 Nicolai
IMO

Burtzel is still a no brainer. I know his numbers are going down and teams are focusing on shutting him down, but he is still leading the conference in rebounding (tied with Fraase @ 10/game), field goal percentage (63.5 %), assists (4.8/game), and he is 10th in scoring(13.7/game) and 3rd in steals (1.5/game).

I have a bias because I have seen HU play more than I have seen anyone else this season, so I have seen Brown on his best and worst nights. I have seen Burtzel three times and every time he has impressed me more. Every time he is out of the game, SJU is worse. Although Brown is hugely beneficial the majority of the time, I have seen him work to HU's detriment as well (more so early in the season). Also, a major factor to be considered is the fact that Brown has Hipp. Teams have to respect both of them which takes some of the individual pressure off of Brown. It has become obvious over the last few games that teams are focusing all of their energies on taking Burtzel away, which I believe has led to SJU's struggles lately. All in all, I think Burtzel is just a little bit more important to the success of his team.

Hamline goes from near the bottom of the MIAC standings to a playoff bid and within a couple of wins away from the second spot in one year and you're saying the biggest piece of the Vipers puzzle isn't the most important player to his team in the league?

I understand that Hipp is almost equals with Brown in that conversation in terms of scoring/rebounding, but does Carl make his teammates better? No. He is a catch and turn guy. I haven't seen a ton of games, but he is not much of an inside-out guy. Ray on the other hand makes Carl better. And the rest of his team to be exact. Many posters have stated that the Vipers are at their best when Brown can penetrate and find the open shooters and get shots in the lane.

Isn't that what the most valuable player is? Take out Ray and Hamline is a non-playoff team. Take out Nicolai or Burtzel and both UST and SJU still make the playoffs. Brown is flat out the best player in the league and I think the coaches reward Hamline and Brown for their improvement and plus its his *senior year.

Another point is, and it has been stated before, the biggest/most important difference with this year's HU team and recent ones that have struggled is in a category that Brown seems to have little impact--DEFENSE HU holds teams to the second lowest field goal percentage in the conference (41.2%). They have held opponents under 70 points 7 times in the past 2 seasons and have already done it over 10 times this season.

I'll give you that Brown isn't going to be on any defensive teams of the year, but don't you think that one of the main reasons Hamline is second-best in opponent field goals is because they do such a good job on the boards? A team's FG pct can increase pretty easily with offensive rebounds and easy putbacks. Brown averages nearly eight rebounds a game and is second on the team in total defensive rebounds (behind only Hipp).

He is also second on the team in blocks and first in steals. I would say that he has an impact. Maybe not Nick Carroll or Hipp impact, but he's top three my friend.

[MiacLostProphet]

wonka, you asked what has Brown done for Hamline this year that Burtzel has not? Win more games, give his team a shot at a first round bye and a really good chance to host a playoff game in..........um, yeah awhile.  only 2 more wins to be exact, but HU could still steal the 2 seed. But i can't argue with Burtzels numbers, i would be fine if either one wins POY.

Now i know it might be beating a dead horse but i was at a wedding and wasn't able to comment on the transfer discussion.

Turnover happens all over the place, not just to Whitmore obviously.  Lets look at Wohler in his years at Hamline.

Players that did not come back after his first season at HU (04-05) nc=non contributer
Nick Novak (nc)
Adam Hakanson
Ted Gehring (nc)
Andy Grosbach
Brian Dingels (nc)
Travis Jacobs
and 2 others who had to quit prior to the season due to financial reasons

Players who left after the (05-06) season
David Johnson (finished his career at D2 mayville state)
Joe Smock
Nate Heusner
Brandon Hayes (although he did come back and finish under whitmore after Wohler left)

And then Derock departed after the down 06-07 season.

Some of these guys transfered to other schools, some just realized they couldn't cut it. Others left due to "love", one left due to family issues.  There is a lot that goes into why someone quits or transfers, not just the coach, although they can have a big impact.

[huhoops]

IMO poy comes down to 3 players, but really only 2.  Brown leads th league in scoring (nearly 2 points more than 2nd) 19.4 ppg and 8 rpg, Burtzel 14.5 ppg and 10 rpg, Nicolai 14.2 ppg and 1.9 spg.  I understand UST is #1 but Nicoali really should not get it.  

1 Brown
2 Burtzel
3 Nicolai
IMO

Burtzel is still a no brainer. I know his numbers are going down and teams are focusing on shutting him down, but he is still leading the conference in rebounding (tied with Fraase @ 10/game), field goal percentage (63.5 %), assists (4.8/game), and he is 10th in scoring(13.7/game) and 3rd in steals (1.5/game).

I have a bias because I have seen HU play more than I have seen anyone else this season, so I have seen Brown on his best and worst nights. I have seen Burtzel three times and every time he has impressed me more. Every time he is out of the game, SJU is worse. Although Brown is hugely beneficial the majority of the time, I have seen him work to HU's detriment as well (more so early in the season). Also, a major factor to be considered is the fact that Brown has Hipp. Teams have to respect both of them which takes some of the individual pressure off of Brown. It has become obvious over the last few games that teams are focusing all of their energies on taking Burtzel away, which I believe has led to SJU's struggles lately. All in all, I think Burtzel is just a little bit more important to the success of his team.

Hamline goes from near the bottom of the MIAC standings to a playoff bid and within a couple of wins away from the second spot in one year and you're saying the biggest piece of the Vipers puzzle isn't the most important player to his team in the league?

I understand that Hipp is almost equals with Brown in that conversation in terms of scoring/rebounding, but does Carl make his teammates better? No. He is a catch and turn guy. I haven't seen a ton of games, but he is not much of an inside-out guy. Ray on the other hand makes Carl better. And the rest of his team to be exact. Many posters have stated that the Vipers are at their best when Brown can penetrate and find the open shooters and get shots in the lane.

Isn't that what the most valuable player is? Take out Ray and Hamline is a non-playoff team. Take out Nicolai or Burtzel and both UST and SJU still make the playoffs. Brown is flat out the best player in the league and I think the coaches reward Hamline and Brown for their improvement and plus its his *senior year.

Another point is, and it has been stated before, the biggest/most important difference with this year's HU team and recent ones that have struggled is in a category that Brown seems to have little impact--DEFENSE HU holds teams to the second lowest field goal percentage in the conference (41.2%). They have held opponents under 70 points 7 times in the past 2 seasons and have already done it over 10 times this season.

I'll give you that Brown isn't going to be on any defensive teams of the year, but don't you think that one of the main reasons Hamline is second-best in opponent field goals is because they do such a good job on the boards? A team's FG pct can increase pretty easily with offensive rebounds and easy putbacks. Brown averages nearly eight rebounds a game and is second on the team in total defensive rebounds (behind only Hipp).

He is also second on the team in blocks and first in steals. I would say that he has an impact. Maybe not Nick Carroll or Hipp impact, but he's top three my friend.

PI...where I do like the call on the rebounding angle, it's not necessarily an area that an inferior HU team struggled with last year. They led the conference in rebounding offense in the 2008-2009 campaign (which could largely be attributed to a fast past which led to more possessions). Brown helps on the boards, but not much more than Thrasher did last year. If you watched HU last year, and have seen them this year, the comparisons in their defensive tenacity is like night and day.

[Willy Wonka]

wonka, you asked what has Brown done for Hamline this year that Burtzel has not? Win more games, give his team a shot at a first round bye and a really good chance to host a playoff game in..........um, yeah awhile.  only 2 more wins to be exact, but HU could still steal the 2 seed. But i can't argue with Burtzels numbers, i would be fine if either one wins POY.

Now i know it might be beating a dead horse but i was at a wedding and wasn't able to comment on the transfer discussion.

Turnover happens all over the place, not just to Whitmore obviously.  Lets look at Wohler in his years at Hamline.

Players that did not come back after his first season at HU (04-05) nc=non contributer
Nick Novak (nc)
Adam Hakanson
Ted Gehring (nc)
Andy Grosbach
Brian Dingels (nc)
Travis Jacobs
and 2 others who had to quit prior to the season due to financial reasons

Players who left after the (05-06) season
David Johnson (finished his career at D2 mayville state)
Joe Smock
Nate Heusner
Brandon Hayes (although he did come back and finish under whitmore after Wohler left)

And then Derock departed after the down 06-07 season.

Some of these guys transfered to other schools, some just realized they couldn't cut it. Others left due to "love", one left due to family issues.  There is a lot that goes into why someone quits or transfers, not just the coach, although they can have a big impact.

I believe my question was actually what has Brown done to make teammates better, as PI claimed. In just about any quantitative manner of speaking, Burtzel holds the edge — with the obvious exception of wins, where Brown holds the staggering advantage of one The two studs managed to "hold" each other to 20+/10+ double-doubles in the previous meeting...where Hipp provided the reason Hamline pulled away, I'd presume.

I could be wrong, but I doubt SJU has another all-conference player on the roster this year...much less a guy many were advocating for MVP for a good chunk of the year, like Hamline does.

And do you really want to compare The Admiral to Wohler and call it progress? You might be too new to realize how reviled Wohler was on these boards...but I'd be happy to relive the drunken episode he and his staff had at a downtown bar, if the masses so demand 

[John Gleich]

I have a feeling I'm opening up a can of worms with this question. But a friend asked me today, do you think UST should leave the MIAC for something like the NSIC (Div. II)? He raised the point of their enrollment, their wealth, and their rampant success.

I think UST could find success at the D2 level. As far as basketball, they have already beaten teams like Winona State in the past, and so I don't think the talent jump would be terrible. Their facilities are top-notch after this new sports complex is built. They also probably have the money to help make the jump.

I also think it's unfair from a recruiting standpoint - UST has a perfect location and 5,000+ kids while schools like Carleton and SMU and even Gustavus have half of that student population, in a small town... heck, with SMU you're comparing 5,300 to 1300. I realize that numbers like that will never be fair, but it's worth mentioning. (The approximate numbers are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Intercollegiate_Athletic_Conference)

I know that there are a million details and that everyone on this board is probably going to get fired up... but I've never heard about it from people that were very knowledgeable of the situation. Do you think it could/should happen?

FWIW, the philosophical argument is probably the best... but the $$ argument is big too.  We've gone over this time and time again on the WIAC board (more from outsiders saying the WIAC should be D-II than from insiders), but there's a ton that goes into it.

I found a link on Grand Valley State (MI)'s website regarding their decision to stay in D-II instead of moving to D-I.  It's a really good read for programs that are considering a change in divisions, especially those programs that are considering a jump to D-I.  I highly recommend the read:LINK

[AO]

I have a feeling I'm opening up a can of worms with this question. But a friend asked me today, do you think UST should leave the MIAC for something like the NSIC (Div. II)? He raised the point of their enrollment, their wealth, and their rampant success.

I think UST could find success at the D2 level. As far as basketball, they have already beaten teams like Winona State in the past, and so I don't think the talent jump would be terrible. Their facilities are top-notch after this new sports complex is built. They also probably have the money to help make the jump.

I also think it's unfair from a recruiting standpoint - UST has a perfect location and 5,000+ kids while schools like Carleton and SMU and even Gustavus have half of that student population, in a small town... heck, with SMU you're comparing 5,300 to 1300. I realize that numbers like that will never be fair, but it's worth mentioning. (The approximate numbers are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Intercollegiate_Athletic_Conference)

I know that there are a million details and that everyone on this board is probably going to get fired up... but I've never heard about it from people that were very knowledgeable of the situation. Do you think it could/should happen?

FWIW, the philosophical argument is probably the best... but the $$ argument is big too.  We've gone over this time and time again on the WIAC board (more from outsiders saying the WIAC should be D-II than from insiders), but there's a ton that goes into it.

I found a link on Grand Valley State (MI)'s website regarding their decision to stay in D-II instead of moving to D-I.  It's a really good read for programs that are considering a change in divisions, especially those programs that are considering a jump to D-I.  I highly recommend the read:LINK

The whole system discourages teams from excelling and moving up a division.  First we combine all our sports into one athletic department so that football and basketball pay for the rest of the sports.  Then we add more non-revenue sports to fulfill title 9 guidelines.  It's no wonder why so few d-1 programs profit.  If we let each sport exist on its own, then Grand Valley State Football can move up to D-1, and the rest of its d2 programs won't get as much of an unfair advantage as they won't see the additional revenue the football team generates.   

This is one area where I admire the system the Brits set up for soccer.  If you decided to field a team of friends and co-workers to play in the local amateur league, your squad could do enough winning over the years to be promoted to better leagues every year and eventually play in the top professional league.

How about a system similar to the MSHSL's where a team can opt up into a higher divison for 2 years in any sport and then come back down without any trouble if they're not competitive?

I'm not saying St. Thomas should move up a division.  It's got to be their choice, and I think all the teams in the league would feel a title wouldn't mean as much if St. Thomas left.  We have a system in place where it probably wouldn't make sense for them to move up, even if they win the next 10 basketball and baseball championships. 

[Gacman]

People have brought up compelling points for both Burtzel and Brown and as someone mentioned you really can't go wrong with either one winning it. Here are some things that I feel are improtant to think about regarding this year's race and how last year's MVP decision might affect this year's decision. Forgive if I restate some things.

1) Brown is easily the most talented player in the conference and he should be since he is a legit D1 talent. With that said that doesn't automatically make him the MVP. Being the best player doesn't mean you are the most important player in the conference because every team's situation is different. What you can say about Hamline this year is that they really didn't get any better in any area except Brown and they didn't have a winning season last year and this year they are knocking on the door of a 2 seed. This would make it seem like he is pretty important to this team and it's future success the rest of this season.

2) I was looking on the SJU you website and found some interesting things. Some have argued that since Burtzel is all everything, if you take him away SJU doesn't make the playoffs, but If you take Brown away from his team they still have another potential MVP in Hipp that Burtzel doesn't have. This may all be true but people are forgetting one thing, SJU is way more talented as a team than Hamline from top to bottom. Why do I say this you ask? Well I will tell you. People forget about a guy named Christ Schwartz. Until this year even though you might have said last year that Burtzel was still better all around, Schwartz was more productive. He was the leading scorer for the Johnies last year at 12.9 per game. He made 53 3's and was there go-to player. Even his freshman year he averaged 12.9 points per game and hit 56 3's. This year he is averaging 6.7 ppg and has hit only 23 3's a game. Clearly his lack of production has had just as much of an impact on SJU being 10-8 in conference play as Burtzel's stellar play has.

SJU's talent doesn't end with Schwartz. Andy Burns, who lead the team in assists as a freshman, was maybe the best freshman guard last year and was considered a pretty big recruit for SJU. He is having a solid season this year but we haven't seen any significant improvement from him really besides cutting down on his turnovers. SJU also has a very nice player in Barmore who is the smart do all the little things player who shoots a great percentage and provides mismatches with his size. Latzke is a tall lanky shooter who provides mismatches and Blank shoots it with the best of them. They have all this talent and that doesn't even count Herman who Drake has labled a stud that is actually staying on the court where last year he only played in 11 games.

I guess what I am trying to say is that with SJU returning all of these players from last year's 3rd place team and adding Herman as permanent fixture to the lineup this year, even without Burtzel this should be a really good team. Now it obviosly isn't Burtzels fault because he has continued to improve every season and leads his team in basically every statistical category. I mean I looked today and he has lead the team in rebounding every single game this year except one. ONE!!! That's crazy! Besides Hipp though, SJU is better at almost every other position.

With all that said, I really think the real story line is the decline in Schwartz's play and the non improvement of players who were starters last year or played significant minutes. Maybe this fact improves people's perception of Burtzel that he is carrying a team that has digressed in almost all areas except him.

3) I think we are finding out this year that Scott is little overrated. Now I'm not saying he is a bad player, because he is a very good player on a good team, but people who voted on the MVP last year didn't factor in that Scott benefitted from playing on possibly one of the smartest and selfless teams I have ever seen. Every great team has at least one player on there team that provides the intangibles. Sometimes this player is the best player on the team, other times it comes from a player in a supporting role. MJ was this player for the Bulls and represents the best player theory, and KG for Boston's championship represents the other spectrum. UST had four players like KG last year which is really unheard of especially at the College level. Scott just had to show up with no responsibility, no pressure and just play using his athleticism on defense and shooting without a conscience on offense. Even getting open wasn't a problem because those four seniors would set the perfect screen or make the extra pass. This year he has to be the intangible guy and I think it has worn on him. He isn't getting those easy shots like last year, and he can't just show up and play worry free like last year. If he scored 5 points in a game last year, UST still wins by 20. If he does that this year, UST is at a huge risk of losing the game.

I think if people would have looked at the MVP in this way last year, they would have gone with the more deserving choices of Madson or Johnson.

I think we are lucky this year that we have two deserving players that really anyone could be happy with winning whether its Brown or Burtzel.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

some very, very good points Gacman.  I think the coaches may have let personalities, feelings about certain individuals, and things along those lines influence their decision as well as feeling a need to honor someone from a team that did the unprecedented, romping to a 20-0  mark (and yes 19 of those wins were romps).  Not that Scott didnt have an excellent season, but even this Tommie backer was stunned by the selection.

You make a valid point that Burtzel is surrounded by more overall talent (Schwartz, Burns, Herman, Barmore to name a few), while Brown has fellow POY candidate Hipp and a bunch of dwarves (to overstate it). The supporting cast at HU is thin and inconsistent, but having Hipp certainly makes it easier to overlook Brown's occasional bad shooting/high turnover night (7 TOs??? in a game??, D-I talent shouldn't be making anywhere near that level of mistakes, IMO).

These final two games are crucial to both players chances of winning it. If they both go south and their teams both lose to GAC (meaning one of them goes 1-1 the other 0-2), their chances of winning diminish. At the same time, two strong games from Cassens (in a pair of Auggie wins) could vault him into the consideration by the coaches, who have a tendency to factor in the playing career, and what Cassens has done at Augsburg in four years is impressive.

Carleton has 3 darkhorse options, too, but needs to move up to 3rd place for them to become more viable.  UST is in the same boat as last year-- rolling to the title, but with no individual stand-out. Nicolai and Healy have the best stats lines, but neither knocks your socks off. GAC is like UST only with less wins-- no standout player, just good team ball.

[huhoops]

People have brought up compelling points for both Burtzel and Brown and as someone mentioned you really can't go wrong with either one winning it. Here are some things that I feel are improtant to think about regarding this year's race and how last year's MVP decision might affect this year's decision. Forgive if I restate some things.

1) Brown is easily the most talented player in the conference and he should be since he is a legit D1 talent. With that said that doesn't automatically make him the MVP. Being the best player doesn't mean you are the most important player in the conference because every team's situation is different. What you can say about Hamline this year is that they really didn't get any better in any area except Brown and they didn't have a winning season last year and this year they are knocking on the door of a 2 seed. This would make it seem like he is pretty important to this team and it's future success the rest of this season.

2) I was looking on the SJU you website and found some interesting things. Some have argued that since Burtzel is all everything, if you take him away SJU doesn't make the playoffs, but If you take Brown away from his team they still have another potential MVP in Hipp that Burtzel doesn't have. This may all be true but people are forgetting one thing, SJU is way more talented as a team than Hamline from top to bottom. Why do I say this you ask? Well I will tell you. People forget about a guy named Christ Schwartz. Until this year even though you might have said last year that Burtzel was still better all around, Schwartz was more productive. He was the leading scorer for the Johnies last year at 12.9 per game. He made 53 3's and was there go-to player. Even his freshman year he averaged 12.9 points per game and hit 56 3's. This year he is averaging 6.7 ppg and has hit only 23 3's a game. Clearly his lack of production has had just as much of an impact on SJU being 10-8 in conference play as Burtzel's stellar play has.

SJU's talent doesn't end with Schwartz. Andy Burns, who lead the team in assists as a freshman, was maybe the best freshman guard last year and was considered a pretty big recruit for SJU. He is having a solid season this year but we haven't seen any significant improvement from him really besides cutting down on his turnovers. SJU also has a very nice player in Barmore who is the smart do all the little things player who shoots a great percentage and provides mismatches with his size. Latzke is a tall lanky shooter who provides mismatches and Blank shoots it with the best of them. They have all this talent and that doesn't even count Herman who Drake has labled a stud that is actually staying on the court where last year he only played in 11 games.

I guess what I am trying to say is that with SJU returning all of these players from last year's 3rd place team and adding Herman as permanent fixture to the lineup this year, even without Burtzel this should be a really good team. Now it obviosly isn't Burtzels fault because he has continued to improve every season and leads his team in basically every statistical category. I mean I looked today and he has lead the team in rebounding every single game this year except one. ONE!!! That's crazy! Besides Hipp though, SJU is better at almost every other position.

With all that said, I really think the real story line is the decline in Schwartz's play and the non improvement of players who were starters last year or played significant minutes. Maybe this fact improves people's perception of Burtzel that he is carrying a team that has digressed in almost all areas except him.

3) I think we are finding out this year that Scott is little overrated. Now I'm not saying he is a bad player, because he is a very good player on a good team, but people who voted on the MVP last year didn't factor in that Scott benefitted from playing on possibly one of the smartest and selfless teams I have ever seen. Every great team has at least one player on there team that provides the intangibles. Sometimes this player is the best player on the team, other times it comes from a player in a supporting role. MJ was this player for the Bulls and represents the best player theory, and KG for Boston's championship represents the other spectrum. UST had four players like KG last year which is really unheard of especially at the College level. Scott just had to show up with no responsibility, no pressure and just play using his athleticism on defense and shooting without a conscience on offense. Even getting open wasn't a problem because those four seniors would set the perfect screen or make the extra pass. This year he has to be the intangible guy and I think it has worn on him. He isn't getting those easy shots like last year, and he can't just show up and play worry free like last year. If he scored 5 points in a game last year, UST still wins by 20. If he does that this year, UST is at a huge risk of losing the game.

I think if people would have looked at the MVP in this way last year, they would have gone with the more deserving choices of Madson or Johnson.

I think we are lucky this year that we have two deserving players that really anyone could be happy with winning whether its Brown or Burtzel.

Interesting notes Gman. I have to respectfully disagree with the the huge discrepancy in talent between HU and SJU, as well as your thoughts on Schwartz and last year's SJU team.

HU has made it clear that the game plan is to get Hipp and Brown their shots. Because of this, it is essentially impossible to know what many of the players in HU's lineup can do offensively. I'm pretty sure a guy like Aguirre could accelerate his scoring significantly if he was expected to do so. Unfortunately, HU is going to go how Hipp and Brown go, because the huge majority of their offense is centered around them. This is why their offense gets stagnated when one or both of the studs are struggling. It would go a long way to have a couple plays for Aguirre, Carroll Schmidt etc. in order to get their offense going as well.

The point that HU hasn't gotten any better besides Brown couldn't be more inaccurate. I'm not sure if you saw last year's team or have seen this year's, but I'm going to assume you haven't/didn't because no one who has observed both would make that statement. I'll take the starting line up from the last game of the 2008-2009 season to compare: Schmidt is much better this year than Wenrich was last year, Carroll is much better than Hutchinson, Aguirre is better than Van Ordstrand, Brown is better than Thrasher, Hipp is much better than he was last year. Off the bench, Wenrich is better than any guard they brought in, Andersen is still a great shooter, Taber is better than anything else they brought in, Rieg comes in and provides a spark they didn't have, and they did not have Voigt to bang inside when Hipp gets tired/in foul trouble. It's not even close!

On Schwartz, he will have an occasional good game, but he is simply inefficient. Last season, he scored 335 points off of 300 shots. He shot 38% from the floor and 32% from three. His shooting woes have continued this year as he has 128 points off of 124 shots. He averaged more points only because he shot the ball more last season. This year, Latzke, Blank, and Herman have increased their shot attempts and production, which will naturally decrease the shot attempts and production of others. The difference his freshman year is that he had Schwartz and Leiser. All he had to do was stand at the three point line and wait for them to get him shots. Much like Scott last year.

True, SJU did finish in 3rd last year. They finished in 3rd at 12-8, which they still have an outside chance of reaching this season. It should also be noted that the 5th place team (Carleton) was also 12-8 last year. Last season, SJU rebounded a tiny bit better and played a tiny bit better defense. Also, it has been noted by other posters, but the bottom of the conference last year was much worse than the bottom of the conference this year which led to some easier wins on the lower half of the schedule. SJU went 4-6 against playoff teams last year during the regular season which isn't necessarily demanding of a 3rd place finish. My point is, instead of asking how they didn't return to their place from last year or progress, maybe ask how legitimate it was that they finished there in the first place.

[Drake Palmer]

Nice job G-man. +K. Well worth the read.

And HU coming back with the respectful, but tight counter & subtle zings.+K

HU- In G-man' role as the 3rd party observer, I think he was simply trying to point out the perceived talent level difference between SJU & Hamline & was nearly making a stronger case for Brown to win the POY.  The old "Brown had to do more with less" angle. Both squads have got talent, but in SJU's case they've got proven talent – Burns, Barmore, Herman, Latzke, etc.  
 
Aguirre, Schmidt, & Taber were all virtual unknowns before the season but Hamline is much improved squad from the previous season. By the way - I saw the 27 point game Aguirre had against Buena Vista, but because of how the offense is structured at Hamline, no one will really know how much talent they've got until after Brown finishes. I've seen both the Pipes & Jays play, & from spots 2-10 I still think SJU has more talent. Now how both squads uses their talent is another story.

G-man - I think you hit many nails on the head: the Brown-Burtzel comparison, SJU's talent, & the observation regarding UST's Joe Scott & his performance last season.  In fact, several of the points you brought up about Scott mirror what Coach Fritz said on the SJU-UST pre-game show the other day.

Mose's follow up comments regarding the outcomes of the games this week & the individual player performances is also right on the money.  Last year everyone sorta of assumed it  would be Bethel's Tim Madsen or Carleton's Zach Johnson & were blindsided by the Scott selection. This year I think is going to be the year of the Instant Runoff selection process.  

One other thing to point out - in the 09-10 Coaches' poll, they picked SJU to finish 2nd and Hamline 8th.  Although in fairness to the coaches, one of them had given Bethel a first place vote.  On the board, I think most posters were split between SJU, GAC or Augsburg taking 2nd place.

I recall watching SJU take Concordia St. Paul down to the wire (71-65) in a close exhibition game at the beginning of the season & I remembered thinking to myself – "this is a team that could really give UST a run for the money this season."  A month later UST eked out a very exciting 80-78 over the same CSTP Bears.  In two regular games between the Jays & Tomcats, there was the OT win for UST in St. Paul, & Coach Fritz borrowed some Mardi Gras beads from New Orleans Saints QB Drew Brees to sneak out of C-ville with a win last weekend.  

[Gacman]

Interesting notes Gman. I have to respectfully disagree with the the huge discrepancy in talent between HU and SJU, as well as your thoughts on Schwartz and last year's SJU team.

HU has made it clear that the game plan is to get Hipp and Brown their shots. Because of this, it is essentially impossible to know what many of the players in HU's lineup can do offensively. I'm pretty sure a guy like Aguirre could accelerate his scoring significantly if he was expected to do so. Unfortunately, HU is going to go how Hipp and Brown go, because the huge majority of their offense is centered around them. This is why their offense gets stagnated when one or both of the studs are struggling. It would go a long way to have a couple plays for Aguirre, Carroll Schmidt etc. in order to get their offense going as well.

The point that HU hasn't gotten any better besides Brown couldn't be more inaccurate. I'm not sure if you saw last year's team or have seen this year's, but I'm going to assume you haven't/didn't because no one who has observed both would make that statement. I'll take the starting line up from the last game of the 2008-2009 season to compare: Schmidt is much better this year than Wenrich was last year, Carroll is much better than Hutchinson, Aguirre is better than Van Ordstrand, Brown is better than Thrasher, Hipp is much better than he was last year. Off the bench, Wenrich is better than any guard they brought in, Andersen is still a great shooter, Taber is better than anything else they brought in, Rieg comes in and provides a spark they didn't have, and they did not have Voigt to bang inside when Hipp gets tired/in foul trouble. It's not even close!

On Schwartz, he will have an occasional good game, but he is simply inefficient. Last season, he scored 335 points off of 300 shots. He shot 38% from the floor and 32% from three. His shooting woes have continued this year as he has 128 points off of 124 shots. He averaged more points only because he shot the ball more last season. This year, Latzke, Blank, and Herman have increased their shot attempts and production, which will naturally decrease the shot attempts and production of others. The difference his freshman year is that he had Schwartz and Leiser. All he had to do was stand at the three point line and wait for them to get him shots. Much like Scott last year.

True, SJU did finish in 3rd last year. They finished in 3rd at 12-8, which they still have an outside chance of reaching this season. It should also be noted that the 5th place team (Carleton) was also 12-8 last year. Last season, SJU rebounded a tiny bit better and played a tiny bit better defense. Also, it has been noted by other posters, but the bottom of the conference last year was much worse than the bottom of the conference this year which led to some easier wins on the lower half of the schedule. SJU went 4-6 against playoff teams last year during the regular season which isn't necessarily demanding of a 3rd place finish. My point is, instead of asking how they didn't return to their place from last year or progress, maybe ask how legitimate it was that they finished there in the first place.

Although I think you have a point in a few areas there are few I think you are failing to consider, as I might have exxagerated on the way better part. I still think their talent is deeper across the board, but you are probably right in the amount of desparity in talent.

HU freshman class is one of the more talented classes they have had in awhile, and I was never discounting that but lets look at what you are comparing here.

1) Oh but it is close. The last game of last year is irrelavant in comparing starters. What is more relevant is minutes played and games played throughout the year. Who starts in the last game for a team that is 9-16 doesn't matter. Hutchinson averaged 10 minutes a game the whole year and wasn't logging minutes that would suggest he was a huge part of that rotation. Carrol played more minutes than Hutchinson already last year so he didn't supplant anything in this comparison. What you are forgetting to mention is that last year's team had Clute who averaged 11.5 ppg in his two seasons at HU, Barnhill who was a nice freshman player who was ready to play right away, and Hayes who was by far the most consistent player on last years team averaging 45.6% from threes and being the starting point guard.

I have seen this year's HU play as I took in the HU vs. GAC game. I also played against last year's team twice so I know a little bit about the situation. Schmidt and Aguirre are going to be nice players and have played a significant role on this years team, but the minutes they replaced were players who with the exception of Barnhill had a couple of years under their belt giving them an edge in experience and based on the numbers they aren't adding anthing more than what was lost. Both Schmidt and Aquirre have gotten up more shots than the next two top scorers after Hipp and Thrasher from last year's team in two less games so it's not like they have less oppurtunities to showcase themselves.

Believe me, they weren't replacing Hutchinson.  Also remember Carrol was on last years team and if he is such an upgrade from players on last year's team, than why didn't he log more minutes? Weinrich, Reig, and Carrol were all on the team so only compare what is new.

Part of my assessment is based on the fact that this team has 4 freshman playing decent minutes with two of them starting. Unless these players are studs like a Zach Johnson which they are not,, you don't as a rule win with really young teams. Although they aren't ZJ type players they still are good and are a step in the right direction to turning that program around outside of this year. So if you replace thrasher with brown on this year's team, we would have seen a similar record to last years team. That's how impactful Brown is to this team and why I was basically making the case for you that Brown should get MVP.

2) You can say Schwartz was inefficient and just took more shots, but it was because he had to. He was the main guy and took the most responsibility for helping them win last year along with Burtzel. You don't just pull a 180 because a guy like blank is getting more shots. I can guarantee you SJU was looking for more from him this year. And fine if it that point were conceded to you, that still doesn't explain that he went from averaging almost 5 rebounds a game his first two years to 2.5 this year.

Also, becuase I played against Schwartz for two seasons, I know that he took a lot of forced shots partly because he was their main scoring option. With other players sharing some of that load, he should be taking better shots and getting better looks so his efficiencey should go up and that hasn't happened either.

Out of any team in the MIAC SJU probably had the most coming back, and so even in helping you make your case that HU's supporting cast this year is better than last year's based on the improvement of returning players like Hipp, Rieg, Weinrich, and Carrol, SJU should be head and shoulders better than because they returned more than anyone based on those assumptions.

SJU's team was very young last year which would explain some of those losses to good teams.  A Team with all sophomore's and freshman outside of one player being in their top 8 will struggle against good experienced teams, and in close games. All the more reason to think that they are underachieving this year because they aren't so young anymore.