MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Willy Wonka]

Does anyone else feel like they have to print off gacman's posts and take them into the bathroom for a post-lunch grumper just to be able to read the whole thing? Good god, man! 

[Gacman]

I don't know about you but I have always liked good contraversal reading material for my scrumps. I tend to think of others before myself so I always have this in the back of my mind when I write. The gift that keeps on giving.  There's a reason I'm an accountant and not an english major.

Oh and HU, I understand where you are coming from. We both agree that the talent on HU is better, just a lack of experience, but it's that lack of experience that is affecting this specific team, not necessarily the team next year or after.

I will be interesting to see what they do next year without Brown assuming he doens't get another year.

[Gregory Sager]

As for Ray Brown's intentions of playing professionally in Europe or anywhere, I don't see anything wrong with using Hamline as a springboard to a basketball contract.  He might be good enough, and could earn more and do a better job of providing for his kids.  Let the kid pursue his dreams.  If he doesn't finish his major this year, isn't granted another year of ncaa eligibility, why not try to get a contract somewhere.  He's come back to school once, he can do it again if he can't make a living playing hoops.

That's all well and good, presuming that: a) going to Europe, South America, or some other far-off port of call in order to play basketball can be considered responsible fatherhood; b) he's able to earn more money overseas playing hoops than he could earn here doing something else (you'd be surprised at how little the typical U.S. basketball player makes in the Euroleagues); and c) he were to eventually finish up his schooling and get his degree in this hypothetical situation after his overseas playing days were done. From Hamline's point of view as an institution of higher learning, though, it doesn't look good to matriculate a transfer student who turns out to be a one-year high-profile athlete who then moves on without getting a degree. And that is yet another distinction between D3 and D1: D3 schools actually care about stuff like that.

[Gregory Sager]

Nice signs for Jonker as well – of course "Jonker Kong," & "Jonker Kong Country." I didn't realize that young Mr. Jonker was of Dutch lineage as one of the signs read "Dutch Crunch #55."  Nice touch.

In the Netherlands, a jonker is a squire or country gentleman; it's the Dutch equivalent of the German term junker, the traditional landowning/military officer class of Prussia. I'm not sure that an estate owner of refined deportment would consent to the brutish appellation "Jonker Kong." 

[Drake Palmer]

Nice signs for Jonker as well – of course “Jonker Kong,” & “Jonker Kong Country.” I didn’t realize that young Mr. Jonker was of Dutch lineage as one of the signs read “Dutch Crunch #55.”  Nice touch.

In the Netherlands, a jonker is a squire or country gentleman; it's the Dutch equivalent of the German term junker, the traditional landowning/military officer class of Prussia. I'm not sure that an estate owner of refined deportment would consent to the brutish appellation "Jonker Kong." 

According to several other definitions of Kong that I uncovered: 

Kong also means:"large"  

And is also the name of a Chinese Philosopher  - "Kong the Master" whose ideas and sayings were collected after his death and became the basis of a philosophical doctrine known as Confucianism (circa 551-478 BC).*  

Online Free dictionary*

(Then too, there were various other definitions that didn't quite suit the bill.)

Dang Greg, my respect & admiration for Mr. Jonker grows by leaps & bounds each day. 

[AO]

As for Ray Brown's intentions of playing professionally in Europe or anywhere, I don't see anything wrong with using Hamline as a springboard to a basketball contract.  He might be good enough, and could earn more and do a better job of providing for his kids.  Let the kid pursue his dreams.  If he doesn't finish his major this year, isn't granted another year of ncaa eligibility, why not try to get a contract somewhere.  He's come back to school once, he can do it again if he can't make a living playing hoops.

That's all well and good, presuming that: a) going to Europe, South America, or some other far-off port of call in order to play basketball can be considered responsible fatherhood; b) he's able to earn more money overseas playing hoops than he could earn here doing something else (you'd be surprised at how little the typical U.S. basketball player makes in the Euroleagues); and c) he were to eventually finish up his schooling and get his degree in this hypothetical situation after his overseas playing days were done. From Hamline's point of view as an institution of higher learning, though, it doesn't look good to matriculate a transfer student who turns out to be a one-year high-profile athlete who then moves on without getting a degree. And that is yet another distinction between D3 and D1: D3 schools actually care about stuff like that.

Who are we to say that he shouldn't even try?  Nothing is guaranteed, but if his basketball abilities have value after this year, I'm sure he will use his Hamline education and understand that his talent might not be as in demand next year if he waits to finish up school.  It certainly looks better on the basketball resume to be coming off a 20ppg season, rather than a DNP for the 2010-2011 year.  I'm not sure that Ray can make it overseas, but I'm certainly not going to claim that he is being an irresponsible father while he tries to make as much money as possible wherever he can.  Just because he would graduate in another year at hamline doesn't mean he would be guaranteed a steady job.  If he doesn't make it overseas and doesn't go back to school for whatever reason and also doesn't provide for his family, it's his own fault, not hamline's.

[OldUMACFAN]

I played with a dude in the UMAC who did not have half the skills that Ray had and was drafted in the CBA after attending the Mike Hart camp in Las Vegas.  He later went on to have several offers from overseas teams after the CBA collapsed.  anyways my point is that Ray can definitely get on with an overseas team IF he goes to the right camps and has the right representation.  The money depends on how well he plays on the first team that he gets with.  Ray has the ability to play overseas, people stlil have to remember that he is playing with an injured shoulder and still putting up 20ppg in a defensive/fundamental minded league.  Hell, look at Myles McCay from Whitewater.  He is playing overseas and making decent money while putting up nice stats and Ray has much more potential/ability/skills than him.

[Gregory Sager]

As for Ray Brown's intentions of playing professionally in Europe or anywhere, I don't see anything wrong with using Hamline as a springboard to a basketball contract.  He might be good enough, and could earn more and do a better job of providing for his kids.  Let the kid pursue his dreams.  If he doesn't finish his major this year, isn't granted another year of ncaa eligibility, why not try to get a contract somewhere.  He's come back to school once, he can do it again if he can't make a living playing hoops.

That's all well and good, presuming that: a) going to Europe, South America, or some other far-off port of call in order to play basketball can be considered responsible fatherhood; b) he's able to earn more money overseas playing hoops than he could earn here doing something else (you'd be surprised at how little the typical U.S. basketball player makes in the Euroleagues); and c) he were to eventually finish up his schooling and get his degree in this hypothetical situation after his overseas playing days were done. From Hamline's point of view as an institution of higher learning, though, it doesn't look good to matriculate a transfer student who turns out to be a one-year high-profile athlete who then moves on without getting a degree. And that is yet another distinction between D3 and D1: D3 schools actually care about stuff like that.

Who are we to say that he shouldn't even try?

I'm not handing out life advice to Ray Brown. I'm simply saying that playing basketball overseas is not the clear-cut best choice that you seem to be implying it is, and also that -- to get back to the original point about the distinctions between D1 and D3 -- providing a temporary home for a one-year academic nomad who doesn't finish his degree is not part of the way that D3 athletic programs intend to operate, whereas in D1 even schools that tout their academic bona-fides such as Duke have become resigned to the idea of recruiting non-graduating basketball "rentals" in order to continue competing at an AP Top 25 level.

Nothing is guaranteed, but if his basketball abilities have value after this year, I'm sure he will use his Hamline education and understand that his talent might not be as in demand next year if he waits to finish up school.

I can't fathom why a year of college would help someone figure that out, but ... whatever.

'm not sure that Ray can make it overseas, but I'm certainly not going to claim that he is being an irresponsible father while he tries to make as much money as possible wherever he can.

Agreed, but the bottom line of it is that in this scenario he would have to end up putting a dollar value on his presence in his children's lives. We all know the statistics about kids who grow up in single-parent homes. Children need a father, particularly when they're at a young and vulnerable age. Sometimes you have to go where the money's better in order to support your kids -- you certainly won't ever hear me badmouthing military parents who have to endure overseas hitches away from their loved ones in order to provide a better life for their kids -- but, again, I'm not sure you understand the fact that the typical American player doesn't make a whole lot of scratch playing hoops overseas. It's a major reason why so many of the D3 players we read about who play in Europe after their college careers are over come back after only a year or two.

Then again, with the economy the way it is in the Twin Cities, overseas basketball may actually be Brown's best bet to make some money. It's hard to say definitively.

Just because he would graduate in another year at hamline doesn't mean he would be guaranteed a steady job.

Again, you're presuming that he would go back to school and graduate if he were to take a hiatus from his education to play pro ball overseas. I don't know what the statistics are -- someone who works in a college admissions office can probably point to them -- but I do know that it becomes increasingly more difficult to re-orient your life and go back to school as a full-time student once you've left.

If he doesn't make it overseas and doesn't go back to school for whatever reason and also doesn't provide for his family, it's his own fault, not hamline's.

Ultimately, yes. But it's not looked upon that way, both by the NCAA (which tracks graduation rates for student-athletes) and by public perception. I have no doubt that, if Ray Brown were to leave Hamline without a degree after this season was over and subsequently vanished into the ether, he'd be remembered as a "bandit" (I hate that term) and it would give detractors of Hamline and/or Coach Whitmore fuel to paint the school/coach as mercenaries.

[papahoops]

JONKER KONG NAMED CO-MIAC PLAYER OF THE WEEK
DP, since you are the founder of the the Jonker Kong fan club, we need to discuss a club celebration for this illustrious achievement.
Unfortunately the league is making Jonker Kong share the award. Fraase did put up some nice stats , but it was against the front courts of MAC and SMU , so Jonker fans would have preferred not to share the honor this week

Seriously, congrats to both players who really work hard in the paint to get the job done.

[Gregory Sager]

I played with a dude in the UMAC who did not have half the skills that Ray had and was drafted in the CBA after attending the Mike Hart camp in Las Vegas.  He later went on to have several offers from overseas teams after the CBA collapsed.  anyways my point is that Ray can definitely get on with an overseas team IF he goes to the right camps and has the right representation.  The money depends on how well he plays on the first team that he gets with.  Ray has the ability to play overseas, people stlil have to remember that he is playing with an injured shoulder and still putting up 20ppg in a defensive/fundamental minded league.  Hell, look at Myles McCay from Whitewater.  He is playing overseas and making decent money while putting up nice stats and Ray has much more potential/ability/skills than him.

Do you know for certain what McKay is making right now? I know that he's playing in the Czech league, so I doubt that he's making piles of money.

This is a post I made in the "former D3 players playing professionally" room five and a half years ago about former Bethel star Eric Joldersma and a debate I had regarding him in this room back in '99 (yes, folks, this room's been around that long):

Joldersma's one of my favorite stories from five years ago. As it was a poorly-kept secret that NBA scouts were following Devean George around from one MIAC gym to another, three or so MIAC room regulars (a couple of Bethel guys and a former Augsburg player, as I recall) began strongly suggesting that Joldersma, too, was going to go to The Show. Well, that was just plain nonsense, and I said as much in the MIAC room. While I could've been a little more diplomatic about it, you would've thought from their reaction that I had just spit in Joldersma's face. The vitriol in the MIAC room got very heated. They were very insistent that Joldersma was as sure a lock for an NBA uniform as was his rival Devean George.

While I wished Joldersma the best of luck when he signed with that French team, and I still wish him the best of luck, I hope that there aren't still any MIAC types who're holding their breath waiting for the NBA to come calling on him.

Joldersma played for a half-dozen years in France's C and B leagues before moving up to the A league as a 32-year-old reserve in 2007-08. This past season he moved back down to the B league. And Joldersma, by all accounts of the people who saw him play, was a fantastic ballplayer -- one of the MIAC greats of the past few decades.

I've known several players who've played in Europe, and have read about many others here on d3boards.com. What I know is this: Unless you are an elite player in an elite league in one of the top basketball countries (France, Spain, Italy), you aren't going to make a whole lot of money playing over there in terms of what Americans consider a solid paycheck for a professional athlete.

And that's why I say that there's tradeoffs involved in any decision that a basketball player makes in terms of going overseas to play as a pro -- and if there's kids involved (I know that McKay has one; I've read on his blog how much it bothers him to be away from his kid, who is currently living with his parents in Wisconsin), that plays into the equation.

[Drake Palmer]

JONKER KONG NAMED CO-MIAC PLAYER OF THE WEEK
DP, since you are the founder of the the Jonker Kong fan club, we need to discuss a club celebration for this illustrious achievement.
Unfortunately the league is making Jonker Kong share the award. Fraase did put up some nice stats , but it was against the front courts of MAC and SMU , so Jonker fans would have preferred not to share the honor this week

Seriously, congrats to both players who really work hard in the paint to get the job done.

Sweet.  But Player Of the Week for one game?  I'm glad they didn't mention his free throw shooting prowess from the previous week.

[AO]

Then again, with the economy the way it is in the Twin Cities, overseas basketball may actually be Brown's best bet to make some money. It's hard to say definitively.

If he doesn't make it overseas and doesn't go back to school for whatever reason and also doesn't provide for his family, it's his own fault, not hamline's.

Ultimately, yes. But it's not looked upon that way, both by the NCAA (which tracks graduation rates for student-athletes) and by public perception. I have no doubt that, if Ray Brown were to leave Hamline without a degree after this season was over and subsequently vanished into the ether, he'd be remembered as a "bandit" (I hate that term) and it would give detractors of Hamline and/or Coach Whitmore fuel to paint the school/coach as mercenaries.

I think we can assume that Ray is now more capable of acting in the interest of himself and his family.  The NCAA, Hamline and you and I can't determine his best course of action.  It's ridiculous that the NCAA would consider it negative that after Ray exhausted his eligibility, he left school to try to make it professionally before coming back and doing something else.
   I can see Whitmore/Hamline being blamed for the kids who left on bad terms, but Ray will presumably leave on good terms and have many more opportunities and at least a year's worth of education from a solid university.  That's a mighty helpful bandit.

[Gregory Sager]

I think we can assume that Ray is now more capable of acting in the interest of himself and his family.

Agreed, but nothing is certain here. He's a young man who has had a very hard life and who has exacerbated his difficult situation with some poor decision-making in the past.

The NCAA, Hamline and you and I can't determine his best course of action.

Not without all of the relevant data, we can't. But that doesn't mean that he'll correctly determine what is his best course of action.

It's ridiculous that the NCAA would consider it negative that after Ray exhausted his eligibility, he left school to try to make it professionally before coming back and doing something else.

The NCAA's not in the gauging-best-life-choices business. It's in the supervising-college-athletics business, and one of the things that it's attempting to do to atone for the mess that D1 sports have made of the educational process is to track graduation rates (and not just at the D1 level).

I can see Whitmore/Hamline being blamed for the kids who left on bad terms, but Ray will presumably leave on good terms and have many more opportunities and at least a year's worth of education from a solid university.  That's a mighty helpful bandit.

Again, neither you nor I can say for certain what the future would hold for him if he were to leave school without his degree. Life circumstances can often make it very difficult for someone to complete an unfinished degree, particularly if he or she has breadwinner responsibilities or there are economic issues involved. And the terms upon which he leaves vis-a-vis Whitmore and Hamline, good or bad, aren't really relevant.

In the end, the best scenario is that Ray Brown gets his diploma from Hamline in May and can move forward in his life with that very valuable piece of paper in hand.

[Willy Wonka]

Maybe it's just me...but I'm imaging this "debate" is what Ray Ray might do to Jim Smith in a game of 1v1. I'll let you decide which poster is which, uh, player 

[sumander]

Maybe it's just me...but I'm imaging this "debate" is what Ray Ray might do to Jim Smith in a game of 1v1. I'll let you decide which poster is which, uh, player 

WW, That has to be the post of the week! I almost spit my coffee out when I read that one.

Kind of get the sense that someone is tugging on Superman's cape here!

Brings to mind the words of a J. Buffett tune "ain't no dumb ass vaccine"!

+k for making my day.