MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Nites]

The legacy of the current Carleton Knights basketball team has been written:  A one point loss in the first round of the playoffs to the eventual D-III National Champions.  The Knights played them tougher than anyone in the tournament - and on the Pointers' own court.  Valiant try by the Knights won't help the players avoid the "if only" thoughts for years to come.

Oh so close, but, unfortunately, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. 

[Willy Wonka]

The MN Transitions coach John Sherman has had a positive impact on the MN AAU scene with his Minnesota Magic program. My son had a lot of very positive experieces playing for Magic teams under John's direction.
I do not agree, however, with the way the Minnesota allows charter school to be created and used for various activities. It is not fair for a smaller school that draws from a typical population talent pool to have to compete with a team that is a group of AAU all stars. To their credit, MN Transitions does play some higher quality teams, but they still play a lot of weak teams, leading to tremendously inflated stats that will no doubt distort future state records. I do not agree with the state supported charter school concept in general, so I admit I am biased, but I believe MN Transitions should be placed in a larger school bracket if they are to be included in the state high school league playoffs.

I'm admittedly pro-charter schools because they do a better job for less money, but you can't make a rule that makes all private and charter schools play at a higher level.  There are some truly awful charter/private schools who couldn't beat Hopkins jr. high.  Maybe you would agree with my idea for  promotion/relegation to separate Transitions from the math and science charter school if Transitions wins the A title. 

I understand why we separate college divisions due to the varying amounts of money the schools give to athletes, but I do not understand why we have multiple classes in high school sports when all the schools play under the same rules.

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

[Drake Palmer]

Random thoughts from the past day...

Regarding the St. Agnes- MN Transitions game.  Transitions got lucky & had the good fortune of having the Noreen brothers open enroll and began attending Transitions 4+ years ago.  It's not like Noreen transferred in for his senior year as Trevor Mbakwe did when he transferred from Henry Sibley to St. Bernard's before his senior year.  

Now how Coach Sherman uses Kevin Noreen & the whole Transitions' defensive philosophy is another story.  Imagine Grinnell College with a D1 recruit who didn't have to play defense.  

From what I understand the kid who got the T from St. Agnes is the designated team enforcer, all 6-1 of him.   The Aggies did well this year & had a surprising season.
 
Pops - I sort of agree & disagree with you regarding the charter & private school thing.  I most definitely agree that John Sherman was one of the pioneers for AAU basketball in MN & was an integral part in building up AAU programs in the state.

Regarding private & charter schools: Most of the private,urban schools such as St. Agnes draw from their immediate neighborhood, but, they also have students who attend from across the metro area – this is quite similar to Transitions & other regional charter schools.  I would venture a guess and say that a number of the private schools have at least one "star" student-athlete who lives outside of the "immediate attendance area."

One of the most recent examples is Seantrel Henderson -- the highly prized, D1 football recruit from St. Paul Cretin, lives in South Minneapolis, is one of the most recent examples.  Transitions is just the first charter school that's achieved any type of success on the basketball court.  This is due in no small part to John Sherman.
***

[Drake Palmer]

Random thoughts part 2...

*Speaking of the HS State tourney- another former MIAC coach who brought his team to state is former Hamline coach – Barry Wohler who is now coaching at Orono.  In addition to his son, Brady (?) he's got a very nice 2G in JR Jordan Smith.  I would think most of the MIAC schools would be hot on this kids' trail.  Nice, smooth player. I think he's been a starter since 9th grade.

*Former Gusties Dave Flom & Doug Espenson (is Espo still at EP?)also qualified their Eden Prairie school for state. One of the stars on that EP team is Brett Ervin, younger brother of UST's dual sport athlete Brady Ervin.

*Back to the private schools -another school to watch at State is Minnehaha Academy.  They've got a couple of sweet guards – Austin Brown & Parker Hines (both would make the Drake Palmer MIAC All-FY Name team).  Hines is the more talented of the two – think a poor man's Will Wright.  6-0, 165 lbs, good leaper, slippery quick, explosive, & nice J.  Their big horse in the middle is Taylor Hanson –6-6 220 lbs or so, a mean, talented hombre. Apparently he also plays RB & DE in football. I was at one of their games this winter & I spotted coaches from Bethel, St. Olaf & coach Landrum from SMU.

*I do agree with Pops regarding DeLaSalle & St. Paul Johnson.  Johnson is like a HS version of UST, many interchangeable parts, talented & quick.  Both Johnson & DE have some promising juniors – & several of them are getting some D1 looks, PG Estan Tyler from Johnson & forward Jonah Travis at De.

*I saw the Sectional final between DeLaSalle & Columbia Heights on Friday night & it was an OT barnburner!  Unfortunately for Columbia Heights, SR 2G Jacob Thomas, who I believe is going to Long Beach State on a basketball scholie had a miserable shooting night.  He scored 22 points, but I think he was like 1-15 from behind the arc.  Yikes.

[Drake Palmer]

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

Are you sure about this ruling?  I very well may be wrong, but it was my understanding the transfer rules applied to all member schools of the MSHSL?
 

[Willy Wonka]

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

Are you sure about this ruling?  I very well may be wrong, but it was my understanding the transfer rules applied to all member schools of the MSHSL?

Pretty darn sure. Rochester Lourdes, a private school, recruited a kid away from Century this year and he went right into their second line, I believe. (I'm not a hockey guy, but this isn't the first time Lourdes has done something like this.) My peoples tell me Century and Mayo have both taken Lourdes off the schedule in upcoming years as a form of protest.

[AO]

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

Are you sure about this ruling?  I very well may be wrong, but it was my understanding the transfer rules applied to all member schools of the MSHSL?

Pretty darn sure. Rochester Lourdes, a private school, recruited a kid away from Century this year and he went right into their second line, I believe. (I'm not a hockey guy, but this isn't the first time Lourdes has done something like this.) My peoples tell me Century and Mayo have both taken Lourdes off the schedule in upcoming years as a form of protest.

Century is capable of recruiting Lourdes kids who might live in Century's district and they would be able to play right away as well.   Everybody's favorite former and possibly future gopher went from DeLaSalle to Hopkins without skipping a year...    Maybe they should just make all transfers sit out for half a season even if the transfer is due to a family move?  There isn't a very good way to discourage transfers without penalizing the kids who are forced to move.

[Drake Palmer]

I don't have time right now to do more research but here's an excerpt from MSHSL.


Transfer Rule

Q.  What questions should I ask of incoming transfer students in order to determine their eligibility?
A.  In determining the eligibility status of a transfer you need to ask the following questions:

1.  Where is the student transferring from?
Domestic Transfers: Students who are citizens of the United States who reside in a permanent residence with their parents or legal guardian(s) in the United States and are transferring from a high school in the United States to a school in Minnesota. Domestic students must meet one of the transfer provisions listed below.

A. 9th Grade Option:  the student is enrolling in 9th grade for the first time;

    B. Family Residence Change:  the student transfers from one public school district attendance area to another public school district attendance area at any time during the calendar year in which there is a change of residence and occupancy in Minnesota by the student's parents.  If the student's parents move from one public school district attendance area to another public school district attendance area, the student will be eligible in the new public school attendance area or a non-public school if the student transfers at the same time the student's parents move.

        If the parents move from one public school district attendance area to another, the student shall continue to be fully eligible if the student continues enrollment in the prior school for the balance of the current marking period or for the balance of the academic school year.  If the student elects either of the current enrollment options above, the student will be fully eligible upon transfer to the new school.

        A student who elects not to transfer upon a parent's change in residence shall continue to be eligible at the school in which the student is currently enrolled.

    C. Court Ordered Residence Change for Child Protection:  The student's residence is changed pursuant to a child protection order placement in a foster home, or a juvenile court disposition order.

    D. Custody of Student:  A student of divorced parents who have joint physical custody of the student may move from one custodial parent to the other custodial parent and be fully eligible at the time of the move.  The student may utilize this provision only one time during grades 9-12 inclusive.

    E. Move From Out of State:  If a student's parents move to Minnesota from a state or country outside of Minnesota and if the student moves at the same time the parent establishes a residence in a Minnesota public school district attendance area, the student shall be eligible at the first school the student attends in Minnesota.

    F. Enrollment Options Program:  A student who utilizes Minnesota Statute 124D.03 Enrollment Options Program, and transfers without a corresponding change of residence by the student's parents shall elect one of the following:

        1) retain full eligibility for varsity competition for one (1) calendar year at the school where the student was enrolled prior to the transfer after which time the student shall become fully eligible at the school to which the student has open enrolled; or

        2) be eligible only at the non-varsity level in the school to which the student has open enrolled for one (1) calendar year.

2.   Is the student in good standing?
You must have the school from which the student transfers state the student's eligibility standing at the time the student withdrew from school.  The MSHSL website has a form letter that may be used for this purpose.

3.   Does the student meet the other eligibility requirements?

Age:  The student must be nineteen years of age, or younger, to begin a season. A student who turns 20 during the season may complete the season but may not start a new sport season.  (See Age Bylaw 101.)

Semesters:  The student must not have been enrolled for more than 8 semesters ( four (4) years) since beginning the 9 th grade.  All semesters must be consecutive regardless of the student's attendance.  Did the student ever repeat a grade?  (See Semester ylaw110.)

Graduate:  The student must not have graduated from high school or completed the terminal grade, including foreign schools or earned a GED.  (See Graduate of Secondary School Bylaw 106.)

Scholastic Eligibility: The student must be making satisfactory progress toward the previous school's requirements for graduation.  (See Scholastic Eligibility Bylaw 108)

Seasons:  The student is limited to 4 seasons of participation in a sport beginning in the 9 th grade.  (See Seasons Bylaw 109.)

4.   Was the student ineligible for any reason at the previous school?
If so, the student will be ineligible in the new school until the penalty would have been served in the student's previous school.  Schools must respect and enforce the previous school's determination of ineligibility and enforce the previous school's penalty.  Students may not transfer from one school to another in order to regain their high school eligibility or to avoid a penalty imposed by their previous school.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/news/eligquestions.htm#Transfer%20Rule

[piperinsider]

St. Cloud Tech is a nice team, but would be a definite underdog to take state. As usual Hopkins is very good and the favorite (Eden Prairie/Champlin Park are considered seeds 2/3). From what I have heard, however, Owatanna is the only team in the tournament that has very little chance of competing with the big boys, so we will see how things play out

St. Cloud Tech has a very nice player, Alex Hanks, that has committed to Minnesota State Mankato (he made all tourney team is last year's state tournament).

Speaking of the high school tournament, I would encourage anyone enjoying basketball played the right way to check out St. Paul Johnson Governors (#1 seed) and DeLasalle Islanders(#2 seed)in 3A. Both of these teams are very well coached, play defense, and really share the ball. I am hoping these two teams make it to a final that would be very interesting. Johnson already beat 4A Hopkins earlier this year, so they are the real deal and DeLasalle's talent (with outstanding coach Dave Thorson) never backs down from anybody. The "D" squad is not as deep as St. Paul Johnson, but I would expect them to give the Governors a battle.

Johnson has to get past Hutchinson first. Sure, some may laugh, the Tigers a basketball team? But they have been quite good this season, running 10 guys in line shift mode. Beat a good Willmar squad with Eastern Illinois recruit Taylor Filipek 77-59 in the finals. 25-3 record.

The reason Johnson has been so good is their depth. They have 8 guys who have scored 100 or more points this season. Hutch has the same. I don't see the Tigers wearing down like most teams have. Will they knock off the No. 1 Govs? Probably not, but I think they give them a game.

Answering a few more HS questions, Tech is good, but not as good as they were last year when they placed third at state. Then again, the 2009 field was much stronger than it is this year. Trewick has done a nice job in his first year there replacing Randy Jordan. Also watch out for this transfer from Kimball, Scott Nystrom - solid ball player.

Yes, Jordan Smith and Brady Wohler are the two kids to watch for with Orono, who has a tough matchup with Winona and their 7-footer. The Spartans finished second in the Wright County Conference to Waconia, who was very good but was upset by Washburn in the section opener.

[TommieHoops4Life]

I know the Lakeville North girls had a kid transfer in from Century, a Division I recruit, this year after one of her parents got relocated to Lakeville in a job transfer.

I'm not a fan of teams like Hopkins in basketball and Apple Valley in wrestling who dominate with kids that aren't from that town. But if they move with their parents because of a family job switch, I don't have anything wrong with that. If I remember correctly, not one of the five starters from Royce White's state championship team lived in Hopkins, and that's absurd. At the same time, I highly doubt some kids move and transfer to a championship program solely because their folks got a new job. I kind of contradicted myself a little there, oh well.

Back in my days with Totino-Grace, we had Darius Lane who was the co-Mr. Basketball with Przybilla in 1998. Darius lived in Brooklyn Center, at least 20 mins from Fridley, went to Seton Hall and is now playing overseas last I checked. I don't think there is an easy answer to that issue unless the MSHSL steps in and does more. I've always thought it would be good to have separate tournaments with public and private schools, who knows if that will ever happen....

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

I know the Lakeville North girls had a kid transfer in from Century, a Division I recruit, this year after one of her parents got relocated to Lakeville in a job transfer.

I'm not a fan of teams like Hopkins in basketball and Apple Valley in wrestling who dominate with kids that aren't from that town. But if they move with their parents because of a family job switch, I don't have anything wrong with that. If I remember correctly, not one of the five starters from Royce White's state championship team lived in Hopkins, and that's absurd. At the same time, I highly doubt some kids move and transfer to a championship program solely because their folks got a new job. I kind of contradicted myself a little there, oh well.

Back in my days with Totino-Grace, we had Darius Lane who was the co-Mr. Basketball with Przybilla in 1998. Darius lived in Brooklyn Center, at least 20 mins from Fridley, went to Seton Hall and is now playing overseas last I checked. I don't think there is an easy answer to that issue unless the MSHSL steps in and does more. I've always thought it would be good to have separate tournaments with public and private schools, who knows if that will ever happen....

it ALWAYS happened until the MSHSL absorbed the MISHSL in 1974, forcing private & paraochial schools to play in the public school playoff/tourney. Private & parochial schools have alway HAD to recruit students-- they have no designated "district"...only over the past 15-20 yesrs has there been an increased focus of bringing kids in soley because of athletics and making exceptions to academic standards for some who happen to be above average athletes.

To me, charter schools are a complete academic joke and should be done away with, along with home schooling. To be a good educator, you need proper training, and most charter schools and nearly all home school "teachers" woefully lack that training.

I see open enrollment for public schools as a problem bigger than private schools "recruiting." Not only does it allow schools to hoard talent, but it is a serious blow to community support of schools' teams. I live in the Hopkins district, yet I feel no pride in the accomlishments of the Royals teams (not just boys hoops) primarily because few if any of them are my neighbors' kids...too many of them are "imports" from outside the district. It used to be, you'd see businesses in the community supporting the local HS and its teams, buying ads in programs, hanging posters/schedules in their windows, etc... and people would go to the games even if they didnt have a kid on the team or know any of the kids. they went because they had pride in the community. Now? you just dont see that support much anywhere, except maybe in rural areas.

[AO]

I've always thought it would be good to have separate tournaments with public and private schools, who knows if that will ever happen....

it ALWAYS happened until the MSHSL absorbed the MISHSL in 1974, forcing private & paraochial schools to play in the public school playoff/tourney. Private & parochial schools have alway HAD to recruit students-- they have no designated "district"...only over the past 15-20 yesrs has there been an increased focus of bringing kids in soley because of athletics and making exceptions to academic standards for some who happen to be above average athletes.

To me, charter schools are a complete academic joke and should be done away with, along with home schooling. To be a good educator, you need proper training, and most charter schools and nearly all home school "teachers" woefully lack that training.

I see open enrollment for public schools as a problem bigger than private schools "recruiting." Not only does it allow schools to hoard talent, but it is a serious blow to community support of schools' teams. I live in the Hopkins district, yet I feel no pride in the accomlishments of the Royals teams (not just boys hoops) primarily because few if any of them are my neighbors' kids...too many of them are "imports" from outside the district. It used to be, you'd see businesses in the community supporting the local HS and its teams, buying ads in programs, hanging posters/schedules in their windows, etc... and people would go to the games even if they didnt have a kid on the team or know any of the kids. they went because they had pride in the community. Now? you just dont see that support much anywhere, except maybe in rural areas.

Charter schools/home schools are far from a academic joke.  They do a better job with less money than the minneapolis or st. paul public schools.  Kevin Noreen's academic record is not the record up for debate here.  I don't get where the potshot at home-schoolers comes from either?  Northwestern had a relatively high proportion of home-schoolers and they were all very good students.

As for open enrollment, I can't blame any parent for keeping their kids out of the aforementioned city schools.  I'm more proud of a team of players who chose to go to my local high school, rather than those kids who happened to live near the school.  I doubt your claim that local business isn't supporting the teams anymore.  I've seen posters in businesses and ads in programs everywhere I've went.  There certainly is better support per capita in the rural communities like the one I grew up in, but I don't think Hopkins is missing your attendance at their games too much.

[Willy Wonka]

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

Are you sure about this ruling?  I very well may be wrong, but it was my understanding the transfer rules applied to all member schools of the MSHSL?

Pretty darn sure. Rochester Lourdes, a private school, recruited a kid away from Century this year and he went right into their second line, I believe. (I'm not a hockey guy, but this isn't the first time Lourdes has done something like this.) My peoples tell me Century and Mayo have both taken Lourdes off the schedule in upcoming years as a form of protest.

Century is capable of recruiting Lourdes kids who might live in Century's district and they would be able to play right away as well.   Everybody's favorite former and possibly future gopher went from DeLaSalle to Hopkins without skipping a year...    Maybe they should just make all transfers sit out for half a season even if the transfer is due to a family move?  There isn't a very good way to discourage transfers without penalizing the kids who are forced to move.

Uhhh...why would a public school, outside of Hopkins, recruit? It may happen in the metro, I suppose, but Rochester doesn't even have open enrollment for its three public high schools. The last time someone tried to buck those rules down 'bout was Troy Brown (a D2 shooting guard) way back in 1995.

[AO]

Uhhh...why would a public school, outside of Hopkins, recruit? It may happen in the metro, I suppose, but Rochester doesn't even have open enrollment for its three public high schools. The last time someone tried to buck those rules down 'bout was Troy Brown (a D2 shooting guard) way back in 1995.

No one has ever proved that Hopkins has recruited anyone.  It seems to me that the kids in Century's district have to choose at some point between Lourdes and Century.  This kid that transferred was just a bigger name and made his decision later than most.  I'd bet that a majority of the athletes have chosen Century over the years. 

[hoopmaster]

The MN Transitions coach John Sherman has had a positive impact on the MN AAU scene with his Minnesota Magic program. My son had a lot of very positive experieces playing for Magic teams under John's direction.
I do not agree, however, with the way the Minnesota allows charter school to be created and used for various activities. It is not fair for a smaller school that draws from a typical population talent pool to have to compete with a team that is a group of AAU all stars. To their credit, MN Transitions does play some higher quality teams, but they still play a lot of weak teams, leading to tremendously inflated stats that will no doubt distort future state records. I do not agree with the state supported charter school concept in general, so I admit I am biased, but I believe MN Transitions should be placed in a larger school bracket if they are to be included in the state high school league playoffs.

I'm admittedly pro-charter schools because they do a better job for less money, but you can't make a rule that makes all private and charter schools play at a higher level.  There are some truly awful charter/private schools who couldn't beat Hopkins jr. high.  Maybe you would agree with my idea for  promotion/relegation to separate Transitions from the math and science charter school if Transitions wins the A title. 

I understand why we separate college divisions due to the varying amounts of money the schools give to athletes, but I do not understand why we have multiple classes in high school sports when all the schools play under the same rules.

Why can't you make rules that only effect private/charter schools? I know it was at least discussed by the MSHSL a few years back, though I'm not sure to what extent. I believe the talks centered around making private/charter school kids "worth" about 1.4 on the enrollment scale to reflect the obvious advantage that comes with being able to hand pick "students" who happen to excel in athletics. It's basically the opposite idea of what's currently done for free/reduced lunch kids in terms of determining enrollment — they are "worth" 0.6, I believe.

And private/charter schools do NOT play under the same rules as public schools. Exhibit A: The relatively new transfer restrictions apply to public schools but not to private/charters. It's truly an asinine system IMO.

Sooner or later there will be a backlash. But probably not until every state tournament entrant is a private school that brings weak crowds like St. Thomas Academy. Hit the MSHSL in the pocketbook and then things might change...

The financial piece for schools is determined by per pupil unit.  High school students no matter what their socioeconomic or public, private, or charter school status are all worth the same amount of money.

PI- I don't think Johnson is necessarily beating teams because of their depth although it helps.  From watching them it looks like it is their relentless defense and their unselfishness.  I expect to see Johnson in the title game against De LaSalle or Benilde.

I agree with AO on the homeschooling and charter issue.  I disagree with Charters being a joke.  The same teachers who teach in the public schools teach in the charter schools.  They receive the same training.  Charters give students a chance to be successful in a nontraditional setting. 

AO- the multiple classes means multiple champions.  It is similar to what you stated about some charters not being able to beat Hopkins Jr. High team.  It is the same for some of the smaller schools.  This gives more schools a chance to feel the success of going to state.  If I'm not mistaken there was an all class state tournament in the 90's.  "The Sweet Sixteen"  I believe they took four schools from the four classes and put them in a tournament together.