MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Smitty Oom]

http://m.startribune.com/miac-rivals-plot-ouster-of-st-thomas/508145182/

I really don't know the actual advantage enrollment plays in sports as football recruits football players, basketball recruits basketball players and the education department recruits potential future teachers. My first thought is that this sounds like sour grapes. If you can't beat them, kick them out?

Yeah thats what I get the feeling of as well. I just don't think this solves anything, the bad football programs will remain bad and will still get whopped on by SJU, BU and Concordia. Plus losing UST means the MIAC will hurt the national recognition. It would be much tougher for a Pool C bid for a bball team without UST helping out SOS numbers and offering chances at wins vRRO.

[Smitty Oom]

http://m.startribune.com/hamline-has-a-basketball-story-that-tops-em-all-in-minnesota/508108312/

[Miacman4040]

Hello all,
Longtime lurker on this board and I figured now is as good a time as any to contribute.

I am sad the St Thomas conference decision is based solely on football. Longtime MIAC hoops fans see the league has had great parity recently with teams like St Johns, St Olaf and Bethel and the national recognition the Tommies bring to the MIAC is invaluable for Pool C bids.

With that being said, this issue has angered school presidents for a long time. This vote is not about the school size. The presidents aren't upset because they are losing games or because their schools have smaller enrollments, it is how St Thomas conducts their athletic programs that has led to this vote. It is the MIAC's worst kept secret that St Thomas offers full or close to full athletic scholarships to their top recruits under the guise of "leadership" or other suspect titles. The coaches don't control the amount of scholarship money they can give to players, it is a decision made by school administration, and St Thomas clearly values Division 3 football wins over academics. They have also put more money into their facilities than any other MIAC school by a long shot and probably more than any NSIC (D2) school save maybe Mankato State. Other schools either can't afford to keep up with this scholarship/facility spending (Hamline, St Mary's) or chose to spend their money on academics (Mac, Carleton, St Olaf).

MIAC basketball is fun to follow because a few good players on any team can give powerhouses like St Thomas a run, but it is impossible for football programs at schools like Hamline and Carleton to recruit in the manner the Tommies do. Although if St Thomas just didn't run the score up 90-0 there may not be any issues haha.

Sorry for the book, just my two cents. Thanks for letting me join and I look forward to talking with all of you!

[GoldandBlueBU]

Hello all,
Longtime lurker on this board and I figured now is as good a time as any to contribute.

I am sad the St Thomas conference decision is based solely on football. Longtime MIAC hoops fans see the league has had great parity recently with teams like St Johns, St Olaf and Bethel and the national recognition the Tommies bring to the MIAC is invaluable for Pool C bids.

With that being said, this issue has angered school presidents for a long time. This vote is not about the school size. The presidents aren't upset because they are losing games or because their schools have smaller enrollments, it is how St Thomas conducts their athletic programs that has led to this vote. It is the MIAC's worst kept secret that St Thomas offers full or close to full athletic scholarships to their top recruits under the guise of "leadership" or other suspect titles. The coaches don't control the amount of scholarship money they can give to players, it is a decision made by school administration, and St Thomas clearly values Division 3 football wins over academics. They have also put more money into their facilities than any other MIAC school by a long shot and probably more than any NSIC (D2) school save maybe Mankato State. Other schools either can't afford to keep up with this scholarship/facility spending (Hamline, St Mary's) or chose to spend their money on academics (Mac, Carleton, St Olaf).

MIAC basketball is fun to follow because a few good players on any team can give powerhouses like St Thomas a run, but it is impossible for football programs at schools like Hamline and Carleton to recruit in the manner the Tommies do. Although if St Thomas just didn't run the score up 90-0 there may not be any issues haha.

Sorry for the book, just my two cents. Thanks for letting me join and I look forward to talking with all of you!

Fair points - much more discussion happening on the football board - worth a visit!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The "leadership" scholarships were largely taken care of last decade when the NCAA went to a percentage model for judging athletic aid with relation to the overall student body.  They now simply compare the merit aid athletes get vs the merit aid of the total student population.  There's a pretty small acceptable difference allowed.  It cuts down on those loopholes - unless a school is just flat out lying on their reports.

One area where enrollment might play a difference is if the athletic dept is partially funded by student fees.  I know it's a pretty common practice for the athletic dept to get a certain amount from student fees each year.  If that's a part of the equation for MIAC schools, having a conference competitor with twice the students could equal a funding advantage - its not something insurmountable and certainly not worth kicking a school out over, but it could be a factor in the frustration.

[Smitty Oom]

The people who are plugged into the football programs on the football thread seem to think this is almost a done deal and UST has already been making arrangements for their post-MIAC era.

It definitely is one way to get rid of the ridiculous 20 game conference schedule...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The people who are plugged into the football programs on the football thread seem to think this is almost a done deal and UST has already been making arrangements for their post-MIAC era.

It definitely is one way to get rid of the ridiculous 20 game conference schedule...

I think with this now out in the open .. the vote could easily go a different direction and this gets scuttled. Nothing angers me more in this division than presidents and others who suddenly want to change the rules and kick someone out ... because they won't own up and realize their lack of effort in their own athletics department is the real problem.

[Greek Tragedy]

So is this whole issue mostly based on football results? I know St. Thomas has basically dominated the basketball scene, something like 10 or 11 MIAC championships in a row (this was broken recently, I know).

Is St. Thomas dominating the MIAC sports landscape in general?

[Gregory Sager]

Yes. If anything, UST is even more dominant in women's sports than it is in men's.

[sac]

Could St. Thomas succeed as an independent?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Could St. Thomas succeed as an independent?

Scheduling alone would be the biggest pain in the ass ... see Thomas More women and men and not only their struggles, but the differences in how that worked out.

UST would struggle in late January to February for games (in basketball).

[Smitty Oom]

Is St. Thomas dominating the MIAC sports landscape in general?

I don't know if there is a bad UST program across the board, women's swimming (winning 5 straight titles before losing to St. Kates this year) to mens indoor track and field. These two sentences basically shows the dominance they have in MIAC athletics.

The Tommies scored 185 points as a team to remain the only program in MIAC history ever to win the conference meet. UST has now won 35 men's track and field MIAC titles.

LINK: https://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mtrack-ind/2018-19/releases/20190223fwlmkn

[Titan Q]

I don't know anything about the whole St. Thomas/MIAC drama.  So I am trying to understand what's truly behind the schools that want the Tommies out.

Are there legitimate unfair competitive advantages St. Thomas has relative to the rest of the league?

Thinking about the CCIW, I think many schools have certain competitive advantages in certain sports...but overall, all 9 schools are similar enough that each has a chance to be competitive athletically.  Is that not the case in the MIAC?

[tomt4525]

Benet Academy(IL) 6'5" SF, Will Engels, has committed to St Thomas.

[txg]

I could be wrong, but I think this whole thing could have been avoided if the football coach didn't go out of his way to humiliate a bunch of 19- and 20-year-olds, I guess because his assistant coach took a head coaching job?  I think it is entirely football driven.  It's not like St. Thomas dominating in multiple sports is a new phenomenon.