MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[TommieHoops4Life]

Absolutely a blown call in the St. Olaf game, no way to paint that picture other than that. I saw the replay on Twitter and slowed it down on my phone. Plain as day, the ball is out of the guy's hands and halfway to the basket when the red light goes on.

Should've counted. Unfortunately the officials don't have the luxury of a second look at it, and I think they weren't anticipating a tip play and just assumed it would be late.

[txg]

I don't know the official rule - is anytime you hit the ball with two hands considered a "shot", and therefore not a tip?

Maybe you could apply to be a MIAC referee, because they didn't know the rule either.

Rule 5, Section 1, Article 7:  A tap is a type of try for field goal whereby a player attempts to score two or three points by directing a live ball into his team's basket with his hands or fingers without the ball coming to rest in his hand(s).

Rule 5, Section 1, Ariticle 8:  A tap starts when the player's hand(s) or finger(s) touches the ball.

[bball1122]

Watching it back, it almost looks like the officials had predetermined that they were going to wave it off.  They are all almost instantly waving it off, with no hesitation/discussion whatsoever.   

So, let's say the league reviews this and says that it should have counted.  Is there any precedent for changing the result of the game? 

[Pat Coleman]

Watching it back, it almost looks like the officials had predetermined that they were going to wave it off.  They are all almost instantly waving it off, with no hesitation/discussion whatsoever.   

So, let's say the league reviews this and says that it should have counted.  Is there any precedent for changing the result of the game?

There is not. Once the officials have left the floor, the game is official.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

I readily admit I don't know whether the shot at the end of the Ole/Auggie game should count or not.... I talked to two guys I know who ref HS ball (once for about 15 years and the other for close to 30) and they both say the refs got it right by waving the shot off.  I was told that "By rule any shot attempt with 0.3 or less must be a tip.  The ball came to rest on his hands and a college tip must be one hand only."   

[faunch]

Watching it back, it almost looks like the officials had predetermined that they were going to wave it off.  They are all almost instantly waving it off, with no hesitation/discussion whatsoever.   

So, let's say the league reviews this and says that it should have counted.  Is there any precedent for changing the result of the game?

I reffed a decent amount of high school and youth basketball some 20 years ago and I agree with you. It looked to me like they predetermined to call off the basket. The lead official did not have the benefit of the scoreboard lights. Also the lead official chops his up arm as the ball is tipped...maybe the clock operator did a little home cooking but the ref doesn't know that. I know refs get a lot of crap but these three didn't help themselves much...even watching it full speed it's obvious the tip is off before the horn....basket good!

2018-19 NCAA Men's Basketball Rulebook: http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/cpr/19publications/19ncaa_rules.pdf

Rule 5

Art. 7. A tap is a type of try for field goal whereby a player attempts to score two or three points by directing a live ball into his team's basket with his hands or fingers without the ball coming to rest in his hand(s).
Art. 8. A tap starts when the player's hand(s) or finger(s) touches the ball.
Art. 19. In any period, when the game clock displays 10ths of seconds and play is to be resumed by a throw-in or a free throw when 3/10 (.3) of a second or less remains on the game clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and attempt a try for a field goal. Such player can only score a field goal by means of a tap of a pass or of a missed free throw.

Hands or fingers and may not gain control. This section the rulebook says nothing about only one hand.
If someone can find otherwise feel free to share.

[faunch]

I readily admit I don't know whether the shot at the end of the Ole/Auggie game should count or not.... I talked to two guys I know who ref HS ball (once for about 15 years and the other for close to 30) and they both say the refs got it right by waving the shot off.  I was told that "By rule any shot attempt with 0.3 or less must be a tip.  The ball came to rest on his hands and a college tip must be one hand only."

My kid plays volleyball and that ball didn't come to rest in his hands...that was a tip or a tap IMO!

[Smitty Oom]

I readily admit I don't know whether the shot at the end of the Ole/Auggie game should count or not.... I talked to two guys I know who ref HS ball (once for about 15 years and the other for close to 30) and they both say the refs got it right by waving the shot off.  I was told that "By rule any shot attempt with 0.3 or less must be a tip.  The ball came to rest on his hands and a college tip must be one hand only."

My kid plays volleyball and that ball didn't come to rest in his hands...that was a tip or a tap IMO!

I agree this is definitely a tip.

I talked to some NCAA refs and it is definitely a tough spot. All refs were sent the end of the UMD at SMSU game earlier this season and reviewed end of game situations much like this. They waved off a basket where the kid caught and shot with roughly same time on the clock after going to the monitor when they shouldn't have. But anyways, morale of the story is this was a point of emphasis for the refs as recently as in December so as soon as the two hands got on the ball, I think the refs assumed it was a catch and shoot, like TXG mentioned previously. However, imo it was very clearly as much of a tip as if it was with one hand.

Tough spot, hopefully Olaf doesn't miss the playoffs by a game...

[hopefan]

I readily admit I don't know whether the shot at the end of the Ole/Auggie game should count or not.... I talked to two guys I know who ref HS ball (once for about 15 years and the other for close to 30) and they both say the refs got it right by waving the shot off.  I was told that "By rule any shot attempt with 0.3 or less must be a tip.  The ball came to rest on his hands and a college tip must be one hand only."

My kid plays volleyball and that ball didn't come to rest in his hands...that was a tip or a tap IMO!

I agree this is definitely a tip.

I talked to some NCAA refs and it is definitely a tough spot. All refs were sent the end of the UMD at SMSU game earlier this season and reviewed end of game situations much like this. They waved off a basket where the kid caught and shot with roughly same time on the clock after going to the monitor when they shouldn't have. But anyways, morale of the story is this was a point of emphasis for the refs as recently as in December so as soon as the two hands got on the ball, I think the refs assumed it was a catch and shoot, like TXG mentioned previously. However, imo it was very clearly as much of a tip as if it was with one hand.

Tough spot, hopefully Olaf doesn't miss the playoffs by a game...

The play was the the lead on the front of Yahoo news today... with headline and article both saying the shot should have been good, ball in the air before red went on...

Yahoo Sports
"D-III Minnesota school drains perfect buzzer-beater, officials erroneously wave it off"

[bball1122]

I decided to go back and watch the final play on the STO athletics video archive - video quality is much higher.

https://www.stolaf.edu/multimedia/play/?e=2827

What I found most interesting actually happened before the play in question.  At about 1:41:20 in the video posted above, one of the officials is talking with a couple of the STO assistants during the timeout preceding the final play.  You can clearly see the official tell them, "Remember, it's a one hand tap.  One hand."  So whether or not they interpreted the rules correctly (and I still don't know), the officials did let the Oles know that a two hand tap would not be counted.   Which also aligns with my thought that they had predetermined anything other than a one hand tap would be no good.   Kudos to the official for being clear, whether it was the correct decision or not.

In the end, I would love for the MIAC to release the official explanation for the call.  Either tell us why it was right, or admit it was wrong. 

[AO]

The play was the the lead on the front of Yahoo news today... with headline and article both saying the shot should have been good, ball in the air before red went on...

Yahoo Sports
"D-III Minnesota school drains perfect buzzer-beater, officials erroneously wave it off"

Sportscenter ran with it and it was one of the most discussed things on the college basketball reddit yesterday.  670,000 views on twitter and counting.  It's a different world when this kind of play can get shared so fast.

I decided to go back and watch the final play on the STO athletics video archive - video quality is much higher.

https://www.stolaf.edu/multimedia/play/?e=2827

What I found most interesting actually happened before the play in question.  At about 1:41:20 in the video posted above, one of the officials is talking with a couple of the STO assistants during the timeout preceding the final play.  You can clearly see the official tell them, "Remember, it's a one hand tap.  One hand."  So whether or not they interpreted the rules correctly (and I still don't know), the officials did let the Oles know that a two hand tap would not be counted.   Which also aligns with my thought that they had predetermined anything other than a one hand tap would be no good.   Kudos to the official for being clear, whether it was the correct decision or not.

In the end, I would love for the MIAC to release the official explanation for the call.  Either tell us why it was right, or admit it was wrong. 

The rule book definitely does not mention two hands.  Anything that is legal in volleyball should be allowed.  The rule book mentions that the ball can't come to rest on a legal tap, but that would happen anytime the ball goes in the opposite direction due to a tap, so it's a pretty poorly worded rule.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The light doesn't matter - they put the .3 seconds rule in because humans run clocks and you can't be that exact.  It was a tip, for sure - not sure why the number of hands would matter.  I wonder if the conference will ever comment?

[GoldandBlueBU]

The light doesn't matter - they put the .3 seconds rule in because humans run clocks and you can't be that exact.  It was a tip, for sure - not sure why the number of hands would matter.  I wonder if the conference will ever comment?

Yes - whether the red light was on or not when it released is irrelevant in this instance...but I agree it was indeed a tip.

[faunch]

I decided to go back and watch the final play on the STO athletics video archive - video quality is much higher.

https://www.stolaf.edu/multimedia/play/?e=2827

What I found most interesting actually happened before the play in question.  At about 1:41:20 in the video posted above, one of the officials is talking with a couple of the STO assistants during the timeout preceding the final play.  You can clearly see the official tell them, "Remember, it's a one hand tap.  One hand."  So whether or not they interpreted the rules correctly (and I still don't know), the officials did let the Oles know that a two hand tap would not be counted.   Which also aligns with my thought that they had predetermined anything other than a one hand tap would be no good.   Kudos to the official for being clear, whether it was the correct decision or not.

In the end, I would love for the MIAC to release the official explanation for the call.  Either tell us why it was right, or admit it was wrong.

So I'm thinking that the bald ref might need some additional rules training if he did indeed inform Olaf that it could only be a one hand tip.
And yes I totally agree that the MIAC should issue a press release informing the public of what the refs actually ruled and if they were correct or incorrect.

[miac952]

Watching it back, it almost looks like the officials had predetermined that they were going to wave it off.  They are all almost instantly waving it off, with no hesitation/discussion whatsoever.   

So, let's say the league reviews this and says that it should have counted.  Is there any precedent for changing the result of the game?

There is not. Once the officials have left the floor, the game is official.

To be clear St Olaf and Prez Anderson haven't let little things like precedent and bylaws get in their way recently 

Definitely agree that the refs had talked and pre-determined the outcome the way they simultaneously wave it off and move towards the center. They made the wrong call on a well executed play by the Oles