MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

You're arguing a completely different point altogether, Dave. I never said anything about the desirability of Thomas More as an opponent, in contrast to St. Thomas. I was strictly talking about geography.

[jamtod]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

You're arguing a completely different point altogether, Dave. I never said anything about the desirability of Thomas More as an opponent, in contrast to St. Thomas. I was strictly talking about geography.

I don't think so. Dave was addressing exactly your point.

Yes, Thomas More can go north, east, south, or west to find an opponent but that doesn't mean they actually had more options within a reasonable range.

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

You're arguing a completely different point altogether, Dave. I never said anything about the desirability of Thomas More as an opponent, in contrast to St. Thomas. I was strictly talking about geography.

I don't think so. Dave was addressing exactly your point.

Yes, Thomas More can go north, east, south, or west to find an opponent but that doesn't mean they actually had more options within a reasonable range.

No, look back further. I brought up the whole hypothetical-phone-call thing because Finlandia is the only other D3 independent within St. Thomas's geographical reach.

(Well, there's always Maranatha Baptist as well, but at this point MBU isn't really doing anything D3-wise except paying dues. Only nine of the Sabercats' games last season were against D3 opponents; almost all of the rest of their games were against Bible schools. Heck, Finlandia didn't even bother scheduling them.)

[jamtod]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

You're arguing a completely different point altogether, Dave. I never said anything about the desirability of Thomas More as an opponent, in contrast to St. Thomas. I was strictly talking about geography.

I don't think so. Dave was addressing exactly your point.

Yes, Thomas More can go north, east, south, or west to find an opponent but that doesn't mean they actually had more options within a reasonable range.

No, look back further. I brought up the whole hypothetical-phone-call thing because Finlandia is the only other D3 independent within St. Thomas's geographical reach.

(Well, there's always Maranatha Baptist as well, but at this point MBU isn't really doing anything D3-wise except paying dues. Only nine of the Sabercats' games last season were against D3 opponents; almost all of the rest of their games were against Bible schools. Heck, Finlandia didn't even bother scheduling them.)

I've read the comments. So are you narrowing the geographical argument to only be about D3 independents now (based on one small quip that I assume was supposed to be amusing in reference to Finlandia) or are we still talking about the geographical possibility of UST as an independent building out a D3 schedule with other schools without having to travel all over the place like Thomas More did?

[gordonmann]

Hey, who you calling Independent? Finlandia is now a member of the CAC! Show them some respect!

PS - I know that won't help scheduling. This is a joke Ryan Scott made in another context so I'm reusing it as an homage to him.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

I think you mean St Paul  (and if you lived in MN you'd understand that that is a BIG difference).

"A lot of schools in Minnesota... that would be interested in playing them"-- Really?? Who?  Other than SJU and Bethel and maybe GAC, no MIAC member would, seeing how they booted UST from the conference.

Also, your entire scheduling scenario/concern is predicated on the assumption that 2021-22  would be played as a D3 independent, which would be UST's last choice.  They remain confident that they will be playing a D1 schedule that year.

[jamtod]

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Didn't Thomas More even avoid the Finlandia trap?

Thomas More was far more centrally located, D3-wise, than is St. Thomas. With hardly any other D3 schools located to the north or to the west, UST has dramatically fewer scheduling options than Thomas More ever had.

I don't necessarily agree. If you look at where Thomas More is compared to other DIII institutions, there aren't as many to pick as you would imagine. There is only one other school in Kentucky, for example. And the Ohio schools weren't really interested in playing TMU.

UST I know has a lot of schools in Minnesota and especially in Wisconsin that would be interested in playing them. Dropping into ARC territory isn't horrible, either. I think UST would have a lot more suitors than you realize despite being located in Minneapolis.

I think you mean St Paul  (and if you lived in MN you'd understand that that is a BIG difference).

"A lot of schools in Minnesota... that would be interested in playing them"-- Really?? Who?  Other than SJU and Bethel and maybe GAC, no MIAC member would, seeing how they booted UST from the conference.

Also, your entire scheduling scenario/concern is predicated on the assumption that 2021-22  would be played as a D3 independent, which would be UST's last choice.  They remain confident that they will be playing a D1 schedule that year.

I think it's the difference between a hypothetical thought experiment vs what we think UST will actually do and what they are planning on. I assume Phil and co have better insights into what the certainty and timing will look like than I do, but if I'm not going to know my fate until April 2021, it would be tough to put together a full schedule for that coming fall, even if the Summit League can fit us into their conference scheduling at that time. Schools are trying to put together OOC schedules a few years out, not to mention the implications for recruiting, etc.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Trust me when I say this: UST coaches are trying to schedule for 21-22 without really knowing where they are going to be. They can't schedule D1s if they aren't sure they will actually be in D1 (and no D1 will want to play them if they are still in D3). They can't necessarily scheduled D3s if they aren't sure they are going to be in D3 (and D1 especially the Summit League isn't going to want them playing D3s if they are in D1).

I am told that coaches can schedule D3s IF they have it set that they can back out of the game without problems - ie that the contract has an out for cancelation if they are in D1. I know for a fact that some D3s are NOT going to sign such a contract, because they don't want to be out games on the hook to find other opponents they could have found with more time.

The scheduling problem is a real thing ... not perceived. The longer this goes - possibly April 2021 - the more UST is going to be out on a limb and screwed no matter what division they are in.

[Gregory Sager]

I've read the comments. So are you narrowing the geographical argument to only be about D3 independents now (based on one small quip that I assume was supposed to be amusing in reference to Finlandia) or are we still talking about the geographical possibility of UST as an independent building out a D3 schedule with other schools without having to travel all over the place like Thomas More did?

No, that's all I've ever been talking about. The underlying point is that it's ridiculously hard to schedule non-conference games against opponents who are members of conferences when conference seasons are in full swing. Hence, my initial reference to "January and February." Since independents don't have the luxury of having their dance cards filled automatically by a league schedule in January and February, they're the ones who bear the brunt of this difficulty. I had a front-row seat for this phenomenon here in Chicago a few years ago when Illinois Tech was transitioning to D3 but hadn't yet been accepted into the NACC. As you can see by the links below, even with the luxury of our friends from Maranatha Baptist accommodating IIT with two games in January and February each season that IIT was in the provisional pipeline, the Scarlet Hawks still had a heckuva hard time finding D3 opponents to play once conference seasons started in earnest at the end of the first week in January. IIT head coach Todd Kelly was forced to take on a lot of Bible schools in January and February, as well as such unaffiliated college hoops flotsam and jetsam as Robert Morris-Peoria and East-West University:

https://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Tech/men/2014-15/index
https://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Tech/men/2015-16/index
https://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Tech/men/2016-17/index
https://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Tech/men/2017-18/index

And this is Illinois Tech we're talking about, a Chicago-based school located in the heart of a very heavy concentration of D3 schools.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Sager - to be fair, you are the one focusing on January and February. My comments were being general because that's where it starts. I would have focused on timing on the calendar at a later time. I simply was talking about more willing options around UST than TMU had.

To the idea that only two schools in the MIAC would have been willing to play UST in non-conference play (not your comment, Sager, someone else's) ... I don't agree. I think there are more teams who wouldn't mind playing UST. Those who spoke to vote them out, sure... they aren't an option, but even though a "majority" seemed to be in place to vote UST out, it was a minority who was being vocal. I think there are a number of schools - let's say five or so - in the MIAC who would play UST in non-conference play.

[Gregory Sager]

Sager - to be fair, you are the one focusing on January and February.

Well ... uh, yeah. I mean, I am the one who started this whole bit. So I focused on what I wanted to focus on. Isn't that how conversation works?

My comments were being general because that's where it starts. I would have focused on timing on the calendar at a later time. I simply was talking about more willing options around UST than TMU had.

To use my favorite mixed metaphor spoken on the air by my former broadcast partner, your train of thought and my train of thought were like two ships that passed in the night.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Sager - to be fair, you are the one focusing on January and February.

Well ... uh, yeah. I mean, I am the one who started this whole bit. So I focused on what I wanted to focus on. Isn't that how conversation works?

Wait ... you started this? In the quote below where you made the Finlandia joke ... are you not quoting my comment about scheduling in an independent year?

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

If UST is willing to travel, there will always be Power 5 schools ready to pay for home games. Are we really thinking, at this point, the D3 to D1 five year process won't come through? I think it's a done deal. The question is if UST can secure a waiver to get it done faster than five years.

[Gregory Sager]

Sager - to be fair, you are the one focusing on January and February.

Well ... uh, yeah. I mean, I am the one who started this whole bit. So I focused on what I wanted to focus on. Isn't that how conversation works?

Wait ... you started this? In the quote below where you made the Finlandia joke ... are you not quoting my comment about scheduling in an independent year?

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Yes, I'm the one who started the conversation about January and February scheduling difficulties.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

If UST is willing to travel, there will always be Power 5 schools ready to pay for home games. Are we really thinking, at this point, the D3 to D1 five year process won't come through? I think it's a done deal. The question is if UST can secure a waiver to get it done faster than five years.

I don't think it is a done deal. Something about this now being kicked down the alley further makes me wonder if there are some not happy with the idea. I could be wrong, but D1 can do a lot of things without having the entire division vote on them come the convention ... and I was led to believe that was going to happen here. This feels like another hurdle that was unexpected.

Also, I think if it goes through, the waiver is set. The problem comes with the timing. Schedules are going to be a disaster if they aren't already.