MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Sager - to be fair, you are the one focusing on January and February.

Well ... uh, yeah. I mean, I am the one who started this whole bit. So I focused on what I wanted to focus on. Isn't that how conversation works?

Wait ... you started this? In the quote below where you made the Finlandia joke ... are you not quoting my comment about scheduling in an independent year?

Yeah... I've wondered if an independent year, as challenging as that can certainly be, might be better than hoping it works out at the last minute.

"Hello! Is this Sam Casey at Finlandia? Hi, this is Johnny Tauer over at St. Thomas. How're you doing, coach? Good. Listen, I've got a proposal for you. What would you say to Finlandia and St. Thomas playing a dozen games against each other in January and February of 2022?"

Yes, I'm the one who started the conversation about January and February scheduling difficulties.

You added another item that wasn't being discussed ... just you.

[Gregory Sager]

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new conversation.

[jamtod]

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new converasation.

You are quite welcome to have that extremely narrow conversation by yourself because no one else appears to be interested in it considering we ignored your Finlandia bit and continued the conversation's trajectory which I started and Dave jumped into.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new converasation.

No ... it made it you adding something you wanted to talk about that wasn't being discussed as of yet ... we were talking about scheduling in general.

UST has a major challenge... that was the topic. We can get into the particulars about January and February if we want later, but right now that is likely the LEAST of the problems for UST. The problem right now ... finding anyone who will scheduling them or leave them on their schedule when they don't even know what division they will be in come 15 months from now!

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

To the idea that only two schools in the MIAC would have been willing to play UST in non-conference play (not your comment, Sager, someone else's) ... I don't agree. I think there are more teams who wouldn't mind playing UST. Those who spoke to vote them out, sure... they aren't an option, but even though a "majority" seemed to be in place to vote UST out, it was a minority who was being vocal. I think there are a number of schools - let's say five or so - in the MIAC who would play UST in non-conference play.

Reading this made me laugh so hard this morning that my coffee went out of my nose. Obviously you are either clueless about or choosing to ignore the animosity and hostility that has been brewing in the MIAC for the past 7-10 or more years. You probably buy the Kool-aid that the football game vs Olaf (98-0) was the defining moment of the anti-UST sentiment....but that's not the case. Resentment and in some cases outright hatred has been growing as rapidly as UST's enrollment and endowment. The issues are rooted in UST's growing in size and its expanding academic programs -Law school, Nursing program, "encroachment" in certain schools' "recruiting territory" - and kicking UST's athletics is about the only recourse these schools have to "avenge" the growth of  "evil empire." I can guarantee you, on the men's side there are 6 MIAC schools that would not schedule a hoops game vs a D3-independent UST, and only one (SJU) that definitely would, leaving 3 maybes with St Scholastica not counted in either camp.

From the remaining MIAC schools perspective-- in hoops, they can play just 25 games. 20 of those are gobbled up by conference games, leaving 5 non-conference games. Every program uses 2 of those 5 for a early season trip out of state (Hawaii, Wash, Ca, OR, Chi, PR etc), leaving 3 slots.  Again, all schools have long standing friendly rivalries (GAC-BVU, Olaf-Luther, etc) that eat up 1, 2 if not all 3 of these. Also, most schools non-conference schedules are set or close to it for 2021-22. So even if there wasn't animosity towards UST, many of the remaining MIAC schools wouldn't be able to fit them on their schedule in 2021-22.  But with the animosity, I assure you that there are not 5 willing or wanting to play UST.

[Gregory Sager]

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new converasation.

You are quite welcome to have that extremely narrow conversation by yourself because no one else appears to be interested in it considering we ignored your Finlandia bit and continued the conversation's trajectory which I started and Dave jumped into.

You mean "that extremely narrow conversation by yourself" that Dave and I have carried on for, what, two or three days now?

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new converasation.

No ... it made it you adding something you wanted to talk about that wasn't being discussed as of yet ... we were talking about scheduling in general.

"Adding something [you] wanted to talk about that wasn't being discussed as of yet" is pretty much the stock definition of a new conversation.

UST has a major challenge... that was the topic. We can get into the particulars about January and February if we want later,

I didn't want to get into it later. It was the first thing that came to mind for me in terms of an independent St. Thomas trying to put together a schedule. There's a stark difference for an indie between finding opponents in November and December on the one hand, and in January and February on the other.

but right now that is likely the LEAST of the problems for UST. The problem right now ... finding anyone who will scheduling them or leave them on their schedule when they don't even know what division they will be in come 15 months from now!

I wasn't aware that conversation about St. Thomas's situation was subject to triage.

As I said, I simply brought up the first aspect of UST-as-indie that came to mind. I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4

[jamtod]

The Sager-ing shall continue until morale improves.

[Gregory Sager]

 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

To the idea that only two schools in the MIAC would have been willing to play UST in non-conference play (not your comment, Sager, someone else's) ... I don't agree. I think there are more teams who wouldn't mind playing UST. Those who spoke to vote them out, sure... they aren't an option, but even though a "majority" seemed to be in place to vote UST out, it was a minority who was being vocal. I think there are a number of schools - let's say five or so - in the MIAC who would play UST in non-conference play.

Reading this made me laugh so hard this morning that my coffee went out of my nose. Obviously you are either clueless about or choosing to ignore the animosity and hostility that has been brewing in the MIAC for the past 7-10 or more years. You probably buy the Kool-aid that the football game vs Olaf (98-0) was the defining moment of the anti-UST sentiment....but that's not the case. Resentment and in some cases outright hatred has been growing as rapidly as UST's enrollment and endowment. The issues are rooted in UST's growing in size and its expanding academic programs -Law school, Nursing program, "encroachment" in certain schools' "recruiting territory" - and kicking UST's athletics is about the only recourse these schools have to "avenge" the growth of  "evil empire." I can guarantee you, on the men's side there are 6 MIAC schools that would not schedule a hoops game vs a D3-independent UST, and only one (SJU) that definitely would, leaving 3 maybes with St Scholastica not counted in either camp.

From the remaining MIAC schools perspective-- in hoops, they can play just 25 games. 20 of those are gobbled up by conference games, leaving 5 non-conference games. Every program uses 2 of those 5 for a early season trip out of state (Hawaii, Wash, Ca, OR, Chi, PR etc), leaving 3 slots.  Again, all schools have long standing friendly rivalries (GAC-BVU, Olaf-Luther, etc) that eat up 1, 2 if not all 3 of these. Also, most schools non-conference schedules are set or close to it for 2021-22. So even if there wasn't animosity towards UST, many of the remaining MIAC schools wouldn't be able to fit them on their schedule in 2021-22.  But with the animosity, I assure you that there are not 5 willing or wanting to play UST.

I am well aware of what is going on in the conference. I have spent a considerable about of time - far more than I ever planned or ever wanted - better understanding the landscape. I am well aware that one football game doesn't make the argument. I am also fully aware UST is not the only one who is laying the wood to some of these institutions, but shockingly they are the only ones institutions are frustrated with. I am fully aware that some presidents have had their egos bruised and don't like getting the butts wiped, but at the same time won't allow their athletic departments to do half of what UST has been able to do to become more competitive. I am fully aware there are presidents who somehow think kicking UST out of the conference somehow improves their chances both athletically and academically, while apparently having no understanding that removing them from the conference doesn't remove them geographically and thus the school of nursing is still going to take candidates from other institutions and athletes are still going to pick UST over (name a school) because they want to go to UST. I am aware that UST may have bent some noises improving in athletics but I am also fully aware this wasn't a sudden change in direction and UST wasn't alone in that change - that they saw the writing on the wall and understanding that student-athletes are guarunteed tuition dollars (of all kinds of denominations) while other schools apparently think finishing sixth instead of seventh in the standings is somehow going to improve things. I am fully aware that there are presidents who have spoken out saying that everything "reported in the press" is inaccurate despite the fact everything reported in the press comes from the MIAC release saying those very things. I am fully aware there are presidents who say "I won't speak on this, talk to the MIAC office" and then telling the MIAC office to not say a word. I am fully aware there are student-athletes and coaches at these other institutions who wish their presidents would get their heads out of their asses and give them a fighting chance instead of just blaming UST for their problems. I am fully aware that some of those who claim that UST isn't fair also don't understand how close their programs are to the same kind of success. I am fully aware that St. John's, Bethel, and others are just as successful as UST, but apparently some in the MIAC are blind. And I am fully aware that in the grand scheme of things, there was a small minority of very vocal presidents who got this ball rolling after trying several times in the past and that UST ignored the warning signs ... if they had not ignored those signs, they likely would have had a lot more conference mates who would have supported not kicking UST out, but by the time UST woke up... it was took late. I am also fully aware that the conference never actually voted on this and I wish UST had forced the vote ... that way forcing some of those on the fence to pick a side and have history tell the tale. And finally, I am fully aware that those in the minority would have been FAR better off simply leaving the conference (like most institutions including my alma mater have done) and joining a conference that could have provided a more tolerable playing field for them instead of kicking out one, looking like idiots, and not improving anything for themselves - those members in the MWC or elsewhere would have been a better fit.

If one doesn't like that take ... so be it. I am sorry to hear that, but I am not going to pretend the majority of MIAC schools wanted UST out because in my conversations that simply isn't accurate.

[jamtod]

To the idea that only two schools in the MIAC would have been willing to play UST in non-conference play (not your comment, Sager, someone else's) ... I don't agree. I think there are more teams who wouldn't mind playing UST. Those who spoke to vote them out, sure... they aren't an option, but even though a "majority" seemed to be in place to vote UST out, it was a minority who was being vocal. I think there are a number of schools - let's say five or so - in the MIAC who would play UST in non-conference play.

Reading this made me laugh so hard this morning that my coffee went out of my nose. Obviously you are either clueless about or choosing to ignore the animosity and hostility that has been brewing in the MIAC for the past 7-10 or more years. You probably buy the Kool-aid that the football game vs Olaf (98-0) was the defining moment of the anti-UST sentiment....but that's not the case. Resentment and in some cases outright hatred has been growing as rapidly as UST's enrollment and endowment. The issues are rooted in UST's growing in size and its expanding academic programs -Law school, Nursing program, "encroachment" in certain schools' "recruiting territory" - and kicking UST's athletics is about the only recourse these schools have to "avenge" the growth of  "evil empire." I can guarantee you, on the men's side there are 6 MIAC schools that would not schedule a hoops game vs a D3-independent UST, and only one (SJU) that definitely would, leaving 3 maybes with St Scholastica not counted in either camp.

From the remaining MIAC schools perspective-- in hoops, they can play just 25 games. 20 of those are gobbled up by conference games, leaving 5 non-conference games. Every program uses 2 of those 5 for a early season trip out of state (Hawaii, Wash, Ca, OR, Chi, PR etc), leaving 3 slots.  Again, all schools have long standing friendly rivalries (GAC-BVU, Olaf-Luther, etc) that eat up 1, 2 if not all 3 of these. Also, most schools non-conference schedules are set or close to it for 2021-22. So even if there wasn't animosity towards UST, many of the remaining MIAC schools wouldn't be able to fit them on their schedule in 2021-22.  But with the animosity, I assure you that there are not 5 willing or wanting to play UST.

I am well aware of what is going on in the conference. I have spent a considerable about of time - far more than I ever planned or ever wanted - better understanding the landscape. I am well aware that one football game doesn't make the argument. I am also fully aware UST is not the only one who is laying the wood to some of these institutions, but shockingly they are the only ones institutions are frustrated with. I am fully aware that some presidents have had their egos bruised and don't like getting the butts wiped, but at the same time won't allow their athletic departments to do half of what UST has been able to do to become more competitive. I am fully aware there are presidents who somehow think kicking UST out of the conference somehow improves their chances both athletically and academically, while apparently having no understanding that removing them from the conference doesn't remove them geographically and thus the school of nursing is still going to take candidates from other institutions and athletes are still going to pick UST over (name a school) because they want to go to UST. I am aware that UST may have bent some noises improving in athletics but I am also fully aware this wasn't a sudden change in direction and UST wasn't alone in that change - that they saw the writing on the wall and understanding that student-athletes are guarunteed tuition dollars (of all kinds of denominations) while other schools apparently think finishing sixth instead of seventh in the standings is somehow going to improve things. I am fully aware that there are presidents who have spoken out saying that everything "reported in the press" is inaccurate despite the fact everything reported in the press comes from the MIAC release saying those very things. I am fully aware there are presidents who say "I won't speak on this, talk to the MIAC office" and then telling the MIAC office to not say a word. I am fully aware there are student-athletes and coaches at these other institutions who wish their presidents would get their heads out of their asses and give them a fighting chance instead of just blaming UST for their problems. I am fully aware that some of those who claim that UST isn't fair also don't understand how close their programs are to the same kind of success. I am fully aware that St. John's, Bethel, and others are just as successful as UST, but apparently some in the MIAC are blind. And I am fully aware that in the grand scheme of things, there was a small minority of very vocal presidents who got this ball rolling after trying several times in the past and that UST ignored the warning signs ... if they had not ignored those signs, they likely would have had a lot more conference mates who would have supported not kicking UST out, but by the time UST woke up... it was took late. I am also fully aware that the conference never actually voted on this and I wish UST had forced the vote ... that way forcing some of those on the fence to pick a side and have history tell the tale. And finally, I am fully aware that those in the minority would have been FAR better off simply leaving the conference (like most institutions including my alma mater have done) and joining a conference that could have provided a more tolerable playing field for them instead of kicking out one, looking like idiots, and not improving anything for themselves - those members in the MWC or elsewhere would have been a better fit.

If one doesn't like that take ... so be it. I am sorry to hear that, but I am not going to pretend the majority of MIAC schools wanted UST out because in my conversations that simply isn't accurate.

Would you care to speculate which 5 (or more) schools you think would play UST in the non-conference?
This is much more interesting territory to me than exploring the vast wastelandscape of D3 independents that may or may not play St Thomas (or Thomas More). Although that's also a fitting discussion on today, the feast of St Thomas More
(oddly, despite my alma mater being named after Aquinas, my son is named after Doubting Thomas the Apostle, with a secondary devotion to More)

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think Bethel and St. John's are the easy two ... after that, I actually want to make some calls. I do have a list in my head, but I have been distracted with other topics capturing my time, so I haven't been able to determine if my list is accurate or off-based.

I also think it depends on the sport, to be blunt. I think there are some coaches at other schools that have no worries about UST and would love the challenge or think they are equal to it. I think other coaches would rather avoid playing them in some theory it would help their program in the long-run. And some departments are going to be told to avoid UST altogether not because they want to, but because their president has a burr up their ass.

[jamtod]

I think Bethel and St. John's are the easy two ... after that, I actually want to make some calls. I do have a list in my head, but I have been distracted with other topics capturing my time, so I haven't been able to determine if my list is accurate or off-based.

I also think it depends on the sport, to be blunt. I think there are some coaches at other schools that have no worries about UST and would love the challenge or think they are equal to it. I think other coaches would rather avoid playing them in some theory it would help their program in the long-run. And some departments are going to be told to avoid UST altogether not because they want to, but because their president has a burr up their ass.

If you noodle over it, I'll keep my question specific to basketball. I understand that football has it's own unique complications, but also a smaller schedule to build out.

[OzJohnnie]

Yes, which made it a -- stay with me now, here -- new conversation.

You have the patience of Job and SUMMIT? is not far behind.  I read in awe of you both.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

A truly great read even if you hate the Tommies: 

https://www.startribune.com/st-thomas-basketball-coaches-johnny-tauer-ruth-sinn-see-chance-to-succeed-in-d-i/571811042/

I'm excited for JT & Ruth on their new challenges and am confident they are more than up to the daunting task ahead!

[GoldandBlueBU]

So with MIAC football shelved for the fall, how likely do we think basketball is?

For me, it is hard to imagine that once fall / winter settles in we'll be in a better place Covid - wise?