MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[MIACvet]

Hello. I'm new to using this board, so I apologize if this doesn't look right. I've been following the board since my son started in the MIAC. Since he's out now, I am more comfortable in posting.

First of all, I enjoy the conversations on the board and wish there were more people participating. It seems as though there were more UST posters.

Secondly, I hate to do this, but I'd like to flame on the MIAC awards and refereeing with my first post.

In order of descending anger, here are my thoughts on the awards.

1. Austin Holt got absolultely screwed for DPOY. Badou Ba has defensive skills, but he didn't do the following:
- Guard Raheem Anthony AND Jeremy Beckler all night and hold them down. Who takes on the best 2 players in the league (who are both All-Americans) who play two different positions?
- Lead the conference in steals AS A 5!
- Lead the conference in rebounding, including getting a ridiculous 21 in one game.

Badou was BENCHED by Coach Abe in the first game against Carleton when Beckler lit him up and Carleton was up 25. He then got switched onto Banovetz in the second matchup and had Banovetz drop 20 and 11 on him while Beckler had 29 with 7-11 from three.

In the first Hamline matchup, Holt had 21 and 18 against Ba which Ba had 5 and 5. The second matchup saw Holt get 16 and 14 with Ba going for 8 and 7. Holt is a beast on both ends. This snub was exacerbated with him not getting All-District honors.

Ba could guard the poor players in the conference and block shots from the weakside against bad teams. He is not worthy of DPOY!

2. How do Bethel and Concordia get the same number of All-Conference selections as Carleton, who won the conference by 4 games? Granted, those that got the awards, IMHO, are quality players. But, how does Joey Kidder get a nod playing a shortened season? How is Rowan Nelson more impactful that Matt Banovetz? Speaking of which, why is Nathan Hendler on the squad? Nelson is more deserving than Hendler and Banovetz tops both of them.

You can't have conference dominance like Carleton and not have All-Conference dominance.

3. The new category structure is awful. I've talked with some on the reasoning for this change. Apparently, it was done to be more equitable with other sports. I get that desire, but trying to be equitable between basketball and swimming doesn't make sense. They are different categories and measures of success. They even took out the Sportsmanship award away. How stupid is that? Sixth man? That's a critical role in basketball and shouldn't have been sacrificed in the name of equity. It shows the humility of someone to fil that role when they could/should start.

There should have been a MVP award. This would be intersting between Anthony and Beckler (Holt would deserve some small consideration). While Anthony played incredibly well, and improved his shooting by leaps and bounds, he fouled out of critical games against Carleton and Hamline with stupid fouls. His 3rd and 5th fouls against Hamline in the playoffs doomed their season. Anthony, while being the most dominant offensive player, was not great on the defensive side. Beckler was the only player to average 22 and 5 with 50/40/80 splits in all of D3 and was one of 5 in all of college BB. Of those 5, he was the only one with 2 assists and a half a block. He also had 0.6 steals. Not huge ancillary numbers, but it shows he did it on the other end as well. Best player on best team that won by 4 games.

Now, the refereeing!

7 MIAC schools are in the top 50 in fewest fouls per game in the nation. How does that happen?!?!? There is only one plausible reason and it's not because the players are that clean.

HORRIBLE REFEREEING. It's obvious that the refs choose not to call fouls that need calling. It makes the games bully ball and much harder to watch and play. The lack of interest by a majority of referees to engage with the players and coaches shows their lack of professionalism. I've even seen significant arrogances with referees towards coaches, players and the process. The conference has to do much better in guiding the referees in how the game should be called.

One other item, on a positive note. The talent of the players in this conference is high. I played in the conference in the 80s and am so impressed with the skill, athleticism and commitment of these student-athletes. The conference, without St. Thomas, may be down nationally, but had a balance that makes it very exciting. It is great to see teams like St. Mary's and Macalester rise in the ranks based on the energy of their head coaches. Although Augsburg faced the deathblow of Palmer leaving, they couldn't be overlooked on any night. Talent is getting spread across teams and I'm looking forward to following them in the future.

Also, nationally, how does a conference get so looked down on, yet have two All-Americans in Anthony and Beckler?

Thanks for allowing me to vent (although only the modeator has a choice of letting this through). 

[SagatagSam]

First off, welcome to the board. It can get rather quiet here, especially during the off season, but we are happy to have you.

The conference awards were frustrating this year to say the least. I don't have much input beyond what has already been articulated.

As for the officiating, I'm not completely sold that it is absolutely terrible. Perhaps I go easy on the refs because I am one myself. Granted, I am in my first season and only do high school sub-varsity now, but doing the job seems to make you more empathetic toward those that do. I didn't necessarily think the officials were allowing a lot of rough play in my narrow observation of conference games this season. The statistics are what the statistics are, and it seems to bear out your point that the guys that officiate MIAC games let them play a little more. Were there plenty of bad calls? Sure. Always have been, always will be.

From what I understand D3 is a tough draw for refs because it pays only slightly more than high school and the pressure is substantially greater. Everyone automatically thinks that these should be the greatest refs in the world simply because it is a college game. The better refs are getting D2 and D1 games--and even those guys make their fair share of mistakes. From a money and infrastructure standpoint, I don't think the conference can devote a ton of resources to officiating.

[AO]

It was shocking to see Carleton with 24 fouls against St. Norbert as they only got called for 5 in the game I saw them play.  Carleton was packing it in and giving the shooters a little space.

Also, nationally, how does a conference get so looked down on, yet have two All-Americans in Anthony and Beckler?

If this is about no at-large bids, even if Carleton had needed one, that's just about too much parity in the league this year meaning the 2nd place team racked up a bunch of losses, and the NCAA not having good enough criteria to judge strength of schedule.

[MIACvet]

First off, welcome to the board. It can get rather quiet here, especially during the off season, but we are happy to have you.

The conference awards were frustrating this year to say the least. I don't have much input beyond what has already been articulated.

As for the officiating, I'm not completely sold that it is absolutely terrible. Perhaps I go easy on the refs because I am one myself. Granted, I am in my first season and only do high school sub-varsity now, but doing the job seems to make you more empathetic toward those that do. I didn't necessarily think the officials were allowing a lot of rough play in my narrow observation of conference games this season. The statistics are what the statistics are, and it seems to bear out your point that the guys that officiate MIAC games let them play a little more. Were there plenty of bad calls? Sure. Always have been, always will be.

From what I understand D3 is a tough draw for refs because it pays only slightly more than high school and the pressure is substantially greater. Everyone automatically thinks that these should be the greatest refs in the world simply because it is a college game. The better refs are getting D2 and D1 games--and even those guys make their fair share of mistakes. From a money and infrastructure standpoint, I don't think the conference can devote a ton of resources to officiating.

@Sagatag, first of all, congratulations on becoming a ref. There aren't enough of them getting into the profession. I kinda wish I got into it after I was done playing. You are right around the pay issues. I remember talking to a MIAC coach and he said the pay (a few years ago) was around $150 a game - not life changing.

I'm not certain the pressure is substantially greater. I say that not to dismiss your opinion. Why I say the pressure may not be that much more is because the level of play is much higher than HS varsity or below. Collegiate players know they game a lot more and the coaches are much better versed on the process. The speed of the game is much higher, but for a few exceptions possibly, the refs currently there are not overwhelmed by the pace or intensity.

In my years of watching the MIAC, refs are not missing calls any less or more than other refs. That happens at every level. There are intentional choices made to not call fouls for various reasons and it is across the board with games. That leads me to believe there are discussions about how a game is to be called.

I have also seen a good amount of overt disrespect of coaches by referees which really gets me. Active dismissal of talking with a coach. Making faces to others about a coach after an interaction. Straight up denial on obvious calls. I've been around the game for over 45 years as a player and a coach and have seen a wide variety of capabilities and effort.

You make an interesting point about D2 and D1. I would think refs that make it up to that level would have to gain experience at the D3 level in order to be considered for assignment into those higher levels. That leads me to think there would be some more fresh blood in the MIAC ranks. There appears to be some, but not as much there could be. Maybe that is an area where the profession in the state can take a more active role in helping recruit, support and develop referee talent. I know assigners in this state and haven't learned much about intentional work being done in this area or with school/association administration supporting refs by keeping unruly fans (i.e. parents and students) from unjustly getting on them. Supporting refs at the youth and HS level to build skills will build a great stable of officials.

[MIACvet]

If this is about no at-large bids, even if Carleton had needed one, that's just about too much parity in the league this year meaning the 2nd place team racked up a bunch of losses, and the NCAA not having good enough criteria to judge strength of schedule.

@AO, you bring up a good point. There was no case for the MIAC to get two bids, unless Carleton lost (however, if St. Mary's made the final, a case could be made to talk about them in a normal year with normal bid thieves because of their North Park and LaCrosse wins). That's where the conversation comes in.

There was a lot of discussion in the Twitterverse and podcasts about Carleton's SOS and how things are different than when SJU/UST ruled the roost. I think there might have been discussions on this board before, but the aspect that the MIAC can only have 5 non-conference games, have cost considerations in scheduling them and plays a true double round-robin conference schedule hurts the conference SOS. Carleton played a Whitworth team that made the tourney last year, Carroll who plays in one of the top conferences, CCIW, but was last in it, as well as Northwestern who made the tourney last year and Bethany Lutheran who won the conference this year. They also played one of the worst teams in the country in Martin Luther at their place.

I sound like a whiner, but a team like Carleton who ran through a quality league and played mostly decent teams in non-con should have gotten some eye-test looks if they didn't win the tournament (bid thiefs this year aside). I have wondered about a Big Ten - ACC Challenge type of format for the MIAC and WIAC. Maybe the WIAC wouldn't be too interested in that since they are on another level. But, playing similarly slotted teams could help both conferences. It's not reasonable to believe MIAC teams could schedule a beast non-conference schedule of East Coast teams that should be good on a consistent basis, unless you have the financial resources of SJU and UST to drive that narrative.

There was talk about how coaches want to do away with the double round-robin to allow for building a stronger SOS. Travel costs and being taken away from studies for the extra 5 games, I imagine, is the main stumbling block.

Thanks for replying and extending the discussion.

[AO]

If this is about no at-large bids, even if Carleton had needed one, that's just about too much parity in the league this year meaning the 2nd place team racked up a bunch of losses, and the NCAA not having good enough criteria to judge strength of schedule.

@AO, you bring up a good point. There was no case for the MIAC to get two bids, unless Carleton lost (however, if St. Mary's made the final, a case could be made to talk about them in a normal year with normal bid thieves because of their North Park and LaCrosse wins). That's where the conversation comes in.

There was a lot of discussion in the Twitterverse and podcasts about Carleton's SOS and how things are different than when SJU/UST ruled the roost. I think there might have been discussions on this board before, but the aspect that the MIAC can only have 5 non-conference games, have cost considerations in scheduling them and plays a true double round-robin conference schedule hurts the conference SOS. Carleton played a Whitworth team that made the tourney last year, Carroll who plays in one of the top conferences, CCIW, but was last in it, as well as Northwestern who made the tourney last year and Bethany Lutheran who won the conference this year. They also played one of the worst teams in the country in Martin Luther at their place.

I sound like a whiner, but a team like Carleton who ran through a quality league and played mostly decent teams in non-con should have gotten some eye-test looks if they didn't win the tournament (bid thiefs this year aside). I have wondered about a Big Ten - ACC Challenge type of format for the MIAC and WIAC. Maybe the WIAC wouldn't be too interested in that since they are on another level. But, playing similarly slotted teams could help both conferences. It's not reasonable to believe MIAC teams could schedule a beast non-conference schedule of East Coast teams that should be good on a consistent basis, unless you have the financial resources of SJU and UST to drive that narrative.

There was talk about how coaches want to do away with the double round-robin to allow for building a stronger SOS. Travel costs and being taken away from studies for the extra 5 games, I imagine, is the main stumbling block.

Thanks for replying and extending the discussion.

I really like the UMAC 9 non-conference games giving teams a chance to do a couple tournaments and schedule a lot of fun matchups, but I'd also hate to see the double round-robin go away.  It's the most fair way to determine the champ and better for travel costs and maintaining rivalries.  It really shouldn't matter who is on your schedule but rather how you performed against that schedule.  Massey thought Carleton's strength of schedule was much tougher than the NCAA did because the NCAA just ignores all of the data about what the scores actually were.

[MIACvet]

I really like the UMAC 9 non-conference games giving teams a chance to do a couple tournaments and schedule a lot of fun matchups, but I'd also hate to see the double round-robin go away.  It's the most fair way to determine the champ and better for travel costs and maintaining rivalries.  It really shouldn't matter who is on your schedule but rather how you performed against that schedule.  Massey thought Carleton's strength of schedule was much tougher than the NCAA did because the NCAA just ignores all of the data about what the scores actually were.

Having 9 teams is key for the UMAC and their ability to get more N/C games. The MIAC is the only 11 team conference in the country that has a double round robin. I agree it's a more equitable way to determine who is best in the conference. However, if the goal is to get 2 or even 3 bids from the conference (which coaches care about), either their has to be previous dominance from two teams like UST/SJU or they change the structure.

Here's an interesting question. What do the players really care about? What will they hold close to them 10-20 years after they're done? Is it a conference championship or taking 2nd or 3rd and getting to play one game in the NCAA? Maybe that answer is different for players in the MIAC and WIAC at this particular time. If the MIAC reaches a level where it's plausible to have champions or final 4 teams come out of it (and not just one team like UST), would the current answer change? I would state currently that players care more about a conference championship and hold that memory in their hearts forever.

One interesting note, I heard from my son's coach that wins against very poor teams like Martin Luther at their place actually has a negative multiplier placed on it by the NCAA.

[Greek Tragedy]

Unfortunately, geography doesn't help the MIAC teams much. The WIAC teams closest to Minnesota are traditionally not that good in Stout and River Falls. Eau Claire has been better, and La Crosse recently. Unless you want to make a very long trip or take a plane ride, there aren't a lot of quality opponents nearby. The UMAC is not very good, so that doesn't help. Maybe a 2-day tournament to a CCIW school or WIAC school or fly out East, West or South.

[AO]

One interesting note, I heard from my son's coach that wins against very poor teams like Martin Luther at their place actually has a negative multiplier placed on it by the NCAA.

Yeah I brought that up earlier this year.  It's shocking they're still using the broken home/away multiplier.  Even when we're talking about playing a .500 team you still want that game to be at home since the multiplier won't make that game appear tougher if you played them on the road, it will just make it more important and drag your SOS down to .500.

Unfortunately, geography doesn't help the MIAC teams much. The WIAC teams closest to Minnesota are traditionally not that good in Stout and River Falls. Eau Claire has been better, and La Crosse recently. Unless you want to make a very long trip or take a plane ride, there aren't a lot of quality opponents nearby. The UMAC is not very good, so that doesn't help. Maybe a 2-day tournament to a CCIW school or WIAC school or fly out East, West or South.

Playing Martin Luther hurt the SOS, but playing Bethany helped.  The UMAC was pretty deep this year with the 6th place team (Crown) beating last year's MIAC tourney runner-up Macalester.  River Falls beat Whitewater by 17 this year, certainly a quality opponent.  What you actually want for SoS purposes is to be surrounded by below average conferences so you can pick and choose from those teams who will have good looking records while not being great.

[MNd3Hoops]

The UMAC is not very good

That is a very 2014 blanket statement to make. The days of rolling over the UMAC are over. The UMAC has beaten the MIAC the last three times they've matched up in the NCAA Tournament and two of the games weren't that close. Look how the UMAC did against the MIAC this season and you will see the two conferences have very similar talent levels in 2023

[Pat Coleman]

I agree that you can't say the UMAC as a whole is not very good. The top team in the UMAC should be considered a legitimate threat to advance in the NCAA Tournament.

And AO kind of cherry-picked his stat a month ago but yes, this year's UMAC6 won at home against this year's MIAC4, while also losing to both MIAC7's and the MIAC9 (as well as the MIAC3, which is not a bad loss).

[Greek Tragedy]

The UMAC is not very good

That is a very 2014 blanket statement to make. The days of rolling over the UMAC are over. The UMAC has beaten the MIAC the last three times they've matched up in the NCAA Tournament and two of the games weren't that close. Look how the UMAC did against the MIAC this season and you will see the two conferences have very similar talent levels in 2023

I agree that you can't say the UMAC as a whole is not very good. The top team in the UMAC should be considered a legitimate threat to advance in the NCAA Tournament.

And AO kind of cherry-picked his stat a month ago but yes, this year's UMAC6 won at home against this year's MIAC4, while also losing to both MIAC7's and the MIAC9 (as well as the MIAC3, which is not a bad loss).

The UMAC, as a whole, isn't very good, IMO. Yes, if you take the top team, they have done damage the last few years in the NCAA tournament. But, I'll stand by my statement. You can't say the UMAC is good simply because the top team has pulled off a few upsets in the NCAA tournament. And if you're saying the MIAC is pretty good by comparing results to the UMAC, that probably isn't a good thing. The MIAC has some good teams, and they are better than the UMAC. Maybe if I have time, I'll go through the results. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[jamtod]

Just saw that Raheem Anthony is transferring to St Thomas

[MNd3Hoops]

 The UMAC, as a whole, isn't very good, IMO. Yes, if you take the top team, they have done damage the last few years in the NCAA tournament. But, I'll stand by my statement. You can't say the UMAC is good simply because the top team has pulled off a few upsets in the NCAA tournament. And if you're saying the MIAC is pretty good by comparing results to the UMAC, that probably isn't a good thing. The MIAC has some good teams, and they are better than the UMAC. Maybe if I have time, I'll go through the results. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
[/quote]

I agree with what Pat said, you can't cherry pick games to make a point. And I'll make this clear: The MIAC is currently the better and definitely the deeper league. My point is that the gap is significantly smaller than it was lets say five years ago. If you've watched any UMAC-MIAC nonconference games especially this past season, you can't deny that. The UMAC was 7-13 against the MIAC this season, with Martin Luther going 0-4. Bethany Lutheran was 1-1 against the MIAC, they lost at Carleton by 8 with all conference guard Xavier Patterson not playing, and they led at halftime of that game. If BLC had played any other any MIAC teams, they would have been favored. If you watched any MN basketball this year, the two best teams were Carleton and Bethany Lutheran. Northwestern beat Hamline (a MIAC playoff team) by 23 on the road and UNW was not at the level that they have been every year for the past 10 years. Crown finished SIXTH in the UMAC and beat Concordia, and then Gustavus and MAC with D2 transfer and All-UMAC player Cade Carroll not playing. Even the losses were very close. Superior missed a shot at the buzzer to lose by one at Bethel. Crown lost in overtime to Bethel without Carroll who is one of the best players in the state. Northwestern played St. Olaf without the UMAC Player of the Year and lost by two at the buzzer. North Central led 21-3 to start the game over Macalester and ended up losing by 3. Morris lost to MAC by 2 in a game they controlled for the majority of the game.

To summarize: The MIAC is the better league. But to say the UMAC is "not very good" is incorrect. The UMAC has been gaining for a couple of years and there are going to be a lot of great nonconference battles in the state in the coming years, and we should all be happy about that!! The basketball in this state is very good right now

[GoldandBlueBU]

Just saw that Raheem Anthony is transferring to St Thomas

Good for him!  bummer for St Mary's obviously, but he was out of place in D3.