MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[txg]

Not disagreeing with your overall thesis, but you said "you can't cherry pick games to make a point", and then you did exactly that for a paragraph.

[MNd3Hoops]

Not disagreeing with your overall thesis, but you said "you can't cherry pick games to make a point", and then you did exactly that for a paragraph.

Haha that's fair. Wasn't trying to cherry pick, tried to use a large number of examples of both conferences winning games to paint an accurate picture.

I can tell that I am fighting a losing battle here and I have the unpopular opinion. We will just have to wait and see how it plays out on the court next season and beyond... can't wait!

[Greek Tragedy]

To summarize: The MIAC is the better league. But to say the UMAC is "not very good" is incorrect. The UMAC has been gaining for a couple of years and there are going to be a lot of great nonconference battles in the state in the coming years, and we should all be happy about that!! The basketball in this state is very good right now

I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse, and that's fine. The top UMAC team has pulled some upsets in the NCAA tournament recently, and I applaud them for that. In fact, one year, it helped Stevens Point avoid the top MIAC team in the following NCAA round. LOL

I still don't think the UMAC is very good. You continue to compare the UMAC and MIAC and how the UMAC is closing the gap, while admitting the MIAC is better. Maybe the MIAC is getting "worse." It's probably a little of both.

[MNd3Hoops]

To summarize: The MIAC is the better league. But to say the UMAC is "not very good" is incorrect. The UMAC has been gaining for a couple of years and there are going to be a lot of great nonconference battles in the state in the coming years, and we should all be happy about that!! The basketball in this state is very good right now

I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse, and that's fine. The top UMAC team has pulled some upsets in the NCAA tournament recently, and I applaud them for that. In fact, one year, it helped Stevens Point avoid the top MIAC team in the following NCAA round. LOL

I still don't think the UMAC is very good. You continue to compare the UMAC and MIAC and how the UMAC is closing the gap, while admitting the MIAC is better. Maybe the MIAC is getting "worse." It's probably a little of both.

I don't disagree with that statement. Plus, I think you just agreed that the gap is a bit closer than it has been in the past, and that's the only thing I wanted 

I enjoy comparing and ranking conferences around the country. Maybe one day I will pop into the WIAC forum and debate you on if the WIAC or the CCIW has been the best/deepest league in the country over recent years 

[jamtod]

Just saw that Raheem Anthony is transferring to St Thomas

Good for him!  bummer for St Mary's obviously, but he was out of place in D3.

I believe he's a grad transfer. At one point I believe the MIAC prohibited grad students from playing athletics (to level the playing field since not all schools offered grad programs?). Is that actually (or still) the case?

[Greek Tragedy]

To summarize: The MIAC is the better league. But to say the UMAC is "not very good" is incorrect. The UMAC has been gaining for a couple of years and there are going to be a lot of great nonconference battles in the state in the coming years, and we should all be happy about that!! The basketball in this state is very good right now

I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse, and that's fine. The top UMAC team has pulled some upsets in the NCAA tournament recently, and I applaud them for that. In fact, one year, it helped Stevens Point avoid the top MIAC team in the following NCAA round. LOL

I still don't think the UMAC is very good. You continue to compare the UMAC and MIAC and how the UMAC is closing the gap, while admitting the MIAC is better. Maybe the MIAC is getting "worse." It's probably a little of both.

I don't disagree with that statement. Plus, I think you just agreed that the gap is a bit closer than it has been in the past, and that's the only thing I wanted 

I enjoy comparing and ranking conferences around the country. Maybe one day I will pop into the WIAC forum and debate you on if the WIAC or the CCIW has been the best/deepest league in the country over recent years 

Actually, I never denied the UMAC wasn't closing the gap. I just stated I didn't think the UMAC was very good.  The CCIW is probably the deeper league. Is it better? I don't know. They've gotten more teams in the NCAA, I think, than the WIAC, probably have had more teams make the Final Four. But, the WIAC seems to have more success in the Final Four, shown by how many door stops the WIAC has.

[MIACvet]

In the last year or two, the MIAC chose to allow graduates to play. You are right that they were prohibited in the past. I think COVID really created a mind shift on it.

As for Raheem, I heard that UST passed on him initially. Also, I don't think Raheem was out of place in D3, especially before this year. Before this year, he was an all conference player, but not even close to a D1 prospect. He worked his tail off to build the shooting and mental skills to put him in a place to play D1. Congratulations to him.

Just saw that Raheem Anthony is transferring to St Thomas

Good for him!  bummer for St Mary's obviously, but he was out of place in D3.

I believe he's a grad transfer. At one point I believe the MIAC prohibited grad students from playing athletics (to level the playing field since not all schools offered grad programs?). Is that actually (or still) the case?

[Greek Tragedy]

MIAC going to 16 conference games starting '24-'25.

https://twitter.com/IWUhoopscom/status/1664028603468726274?t=iJlP37pKhKyQWSj6078g9A&s=19

[txg]

Interesting.  I have to say, I'm not a fan.  I don't think whatever additional chance this creates for at-large NCAA berths (pretty small) is worth unbalanced conference schedules.

For this strategy to work, everyone has to crush their non-conference schedules, which is possible in the northeast where there are a ton of D3 teams to choose from, but out here there are only so many schools to play without traveling far.  The WIAC is much better, the ARC is better, and the UMAC is worse.  I don't see it.

I guess you can go to more in-season tournaments if you have the budget now.

[Greek Tragedy]

https://athletics.stolaf.edu/sports/mens-basketball/schedule

If it wasn't mentioned already, St. Olaf schedule is posted.

[MIACvet]

Interesting.  I have to say, I'm not a fan.  I don't think whatever additional chance this creates for at-large NCAA berths (pretty small) is worth unbalanced conference schedules.

For this strategy to work, everyone has to crush their non-conference schedules, which is possible in the northeast where there are a ton of D3 teams to choose from, but out here there are only so many schools to play without traveling far.  The WIAC is much better, the ARC is better, and the UMAC is worse.  I don't see it.

I guess you can go to more in-season tournaments if you have the budget now.

I was just going in to see if anyone had posted recently and was hit by this conference comparison. What intrigues me is WHY the WIAC is that much better than the MIAC and others (I don't think the ARC is better than the MIAC by the way in quality or depth).

Is the WIAC better because:

- Tradition?
- Facilities?
- State school tuition and larger enrollments that attract players from WI, MN and IL?
- Coaching?
- Lack of a D2 conference which might pull worthy WI players?

I think it might have to do as much with the in-state and reciprocity tuition which provides a financially viable option for many. Also, kids that want to have an experience at a larger institution and play ball won't consider MIAC schools even if the basketball would be a good fit). That has fed a tradition where kids look to the WIAC as a viable option.

To the UMAC/MIAC debate, UNW and BL have arguably had quality years recently and have competed with the top of the MIAC (BLs transfers last season really bulked them up), but the depth overall is not what the MIAC has.

[AO]

Interesting.  I have to say, I'm not a fan.  I don't think whatever additional chance this creates for at-large NCAA berths (pretty small) is worth unbalanced conference schedules.

For this strategy to work, everyone has to crush their non-conference schedules, which is possible in the northeast where there are a ton of D3 teams to choose from, but out here there are only so many schools to play without traveling far.  The WIAC is much better, the ARC is better, and the UMAC is worse.  I don't see it.

I guess you can go to more in-season tournaments if you have the budget now.

I was just going in to see if anyone had posted recently and was hit by this conference comparison. What intrigues me is WHY the WIAC is that much better than the MIAC and others (I don't think the ARC is better than the MIAC by the way in quality or depth).

Is the WIAC better because:

- Tradition?
- Facilities?
- State school tuition and larger enrollments that attract players from WI, MN and IL?
- Coaching?
- Lack of a D2 conference which might pull worthy WI players?

I think it might have to do as much with the in-state and reciprocity tuition which provides a financially viable option for many. Also, kids that want to have an experience at a larger institution and play ball won't consider MIAC schools even if the basketball would be a good fit). That has fed a tradition where kids look to the WIAC as a viable option.

To the UMAC/MIAC debate, UNW and BL have arguably had quality years recently and have competed with the top of the MIAC (BLs transfers last season really bulked them up), but the depth overall is not what the MIAC has.

I don't think the WIAC is doing well just because they're taking Minnesota recruits.  College basketball is about getting the right coach who can attract a pretty small number of elite recruits. Nothing is guaranteed for any of those WIAC schools and the MIAC will continue to produce teams that are better than many WIAC programs. As for the MIAC vs UMAC being about depth, Martin Luther has really been the only school that's below anything from the MIAC as Northland did beat Scholastica last year.

[Pat Coleman]

Ahh yes, an overwhelming ... checks results ... one point win at home for Northland. Same team which tied for last in the MIAC also beat Northwestern, the third-place team in the UMAC.

[MIACvet]

Interesting.  I have to say, I'm not a fan.  I don't think whatever additional chance this creates for at-large NCAA berths (pretty small) is worth unbalanced conference schedules.

For this strategy to work, everyone has to crush their non-conference schedules, which is possible in the northeast where there are a ton of D3 teams to choose from, but out here there are only so many schools to play without traveling far.  The WIAC is much better, the ARC is better, and the UMAC is worse.  I don't see it.

I guess you can go to more in-season tournaments if you have the budget now.

I was just going in to see if anyone had posted recently and was hit by this conference comparison. What intrigues me is WHY the WIAC is that much better than the MIAC and others (I don't think the ARC is better than the MIAC by the way in quality or depth).

Is the WIAC better because:

- Tradition?
- Facilities?
- State school tuition and larger enrollments that attract players from WI, MN and IL?
- Coaching?
- Lack of a D2 conference which might pull worthy WI players?

I think it might have to do as much with the in-state and reciprocity tuition which provides a financially viable option for many. Also, kids that want to have an experience at a larger institution and play ball won't consider MIAC schools even if the basketball would be a good fit). That has fed a tradition where kids look to the WIAC as a viable option.

To the UMAC/MIAC debate, UNW and BL have arguably had quality years recently and have competed with the top of the MIAC (BLs transfers last season really bulked them up), but the depth overall is not what the MIAC has.

I don't think the WIAC is doing well just because they're taking Minnesota recruits.  College basketball is about getting the right coach who can attract a pretty small number of elite recruits. Nothing is guaranteed for any of those WIAC schools and the MIAC will continue to produce teams that are better than many WIAC programs. As for the MIAC vs UMAC being about depth, Martin Luther has really been the only school that's below anything from the MIAC as Northland did beat Scholastica last year.

I apologize if I made it sound like WIAC superiority is because MN kids are playing for WIAC schools. They have high quality WI kids that are not coming to MN and, in the case of a school like Whitewater, can do well from IL (plus they have high quality coaching and recruiting).

I agree that on any given night, the MIAC can take on much of the WIAC. However, there are two perennial programs (Oshkosh and Whitewater) and usually good LaCrosse that put the WIAC up above the MIAC. RF will come in and be good in many years. In terms of perception, the MIAC was a higher rated conference when UST and SJU were both in the top 10. With the lack of those national powers, the MIAC suffers in perception. However, I'll state here, it is marvelous basketball to watch if the refs don't mess it up. Even Scholastica (mentioned above) improved significantly over its first MIAC season.

That gets into the topic of MIAC parity with UST gone. I don't know if this will remain, but SJU has dipped while schools like MAC, SMU and Carleton rose up. Granted, these schools had/have superior studs leading them the last couple of years. SJU lost high quality players to other schools due to, what I'm hearing, not exactly up front communication by the staff. It will be interesting to see if a new balance of power builds over time and what that means for the conference overall.

[tomt4525]

Interesting.  I have to say, I'm not a fan.  I don't think whatever additional chance this creates for at-large NCAA berths (pretty small) is worth unbalanced conference schedules.

For this strategy to work, everyone has to crush their non-conference schedules, which is possible in the northeast where there are a ton of D3 teams to choose from, but out here there are only so many schools to play without traveling far.  The WIAC is much better, the ARC is better, and the UMAC is worse.  I don't see it.

I guess you can go to more in-season tournaments if you have the budget now.

I was just going in to see if anyone had posted recently and was hit by this conference comparison. What intrigues me is WHY the WIAC is that much better than the MIAC and others (I don't think the ARC is better than the MIAC by the way in quality or depth).

Is the WIAC better because:

- Tradition?
- Facilities?
- State school tuition and larger enrollments that attract players from WI, MN and IL?
- Coaching?
- Lack of a D2 conference which might pull worthy WI players?

I think it might have to do as much with the in-state and reciprocity tuition which provides a financially viable option for many. Also, kids that want to have an experience at a larger institution and play ball won't consider MIAC schools even if the basketball would be a good fit). That has fed a tradition where kids look to the WIAC as a viable option.

To the UMAC/MIAC debate, UNW and BL have arguably had quality years recently and have competed with the top of the MIAC (BLs transfers last season really bulked them up), but the depth overall is not what the MIAC has.

I don't think the WIAC is doing well just because they're taking Minnesota recruits.  College basketball is about getting the right coach who can attract a pretty small number of elite recruits. Nothing is guaranteed for any of those WIAC schools and the MIAC will continue to produce teams that are better than many WIAC programs. As for the MIAC vs UMAC being about depth, Martin Luther has really been the only school that's below anything from the MIAC as Northland did beat Scholastica last year.

I apologize if I made it sound like WIAC superiority is because MN kids are playing for WIAC schools. They have high quality WI kids that are not coming to MN and, in the case of a school like Whitewater, can do well from IL (plus they have high quality coaching and recruiting).

I agree that on any given night, the MIAC can take on much of the WIAC. However, there are two perennial programs (Oshkosh and Whitewater) and usually good LaCrosse that put the WIAC up above the MIAC. RF will come in and be good in many years. In terms of perception, the MIAC was a higher rated conference when UST and SJU were both in the top 10. With the lack of those national powers, the MIAC suffers in perception. However, I'll state here, it is marvelous basketball to watch if the refs don't mess it up. Even Scholastica (mentioned above) improved significantly over its first MIAC season.

That gets into the topic of MIAC parity with UST gone. I don't know if this will remain, but SJU has dipped while schools like MAC, SMU and Carleton rose up. Granted, these schools had/have superior studs leading them the last couple of years. SJU lost high quality players to other schools due to, what I'm hearing, not exactly up front communication by the staff. It will be interesting to see if a new balance of power builds over time and what that means for the conference overall.

I'm not going to delve into my actual thoughts on this, but I'm going to say this really makes it look like you don't know much about the history of WIAC basketball.