MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Willy Wonka]

Memo to board - Have your s*** straight before you question someone with Hall of Famer status. Unless it's Pat C or OAS, when he inevitably gets there - they are both fallible

Sadly, there will be no nerd chant in Kenosha this winter (unless it's months down the road in the tournament), unless some rowdy students decide to make the trip or the parents take it upon themselves to start it. If anyone's planning on going, might I suggest the Road Star Inn for an overnight stay. It's right next to about four quality hotels and only half the price! The NCAA was nice enough to put us up in that pile of a place a few years back...

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Fritz has been around for 31 years, and he is one of only three MIAC coaches to taste the Final Four (the Tommies made it there in 1994) in the 29 years that the D3 tournament has been in existence. He knows the landscape.

Not to rain on your parade there, Mr Sager, but this is Fritz's 26th seaon as head coach at St. Thomas his (first season & first MIAC title was 1980-81). He was an assistant for nine seasons prior to that, so he's been in a coaching capacity for 35 years. (26+9). He was a player for four years before that, so he's been directly associated with CST/UST hoops for 39 years, a span of 1,025 consecutive games. Not sure where you came up with "31" but I'll cut you slack, as you usually are dead-on with yrou stats & info....altho I was around back when Hamline made the "Final Four"--- not hard to do when it was only four-team toureny and everyone at that time felt the old NAIA tourney was far more meaningful & prestigous (which is why HU, an also-ran in the MIAC that year, was the 4th team to accept a bid). IMHo, that hardly counts 

[onearmedscot]

And his wife's name is Bev so take that!

Jeez maniac sounds like you wrote a book on the guy...

oAs

[Gregory Sager]

Not sure where you came up with "31" but I'll cut you slack, as you usually are dead-on with yrou stats & info....

I had something in my eye when I was typing that ... yeah, something in my eye. That's the ticket!  

altho I was around back when Hamline made the "Final Four"--- not hard to do when it was only four-team toureny and everyone at that time felt the old NAIA tourney was far more meaningful & prestigous (which is why HU, an also-ran in the MIAC that year, was the 4th team to accept a bid). IMHo, that hardly counts 

It was a 30-team tourney back in '77 when Hamline made it to the Final Four. Two teams, Nebraska Wesleyan and now-defunct Bishop College, drew byes in the first round and played each other for the West Region championship. Hamline was in the Midwest Regional, in which they beat Beloit and Central, and then moved on to the West/Midwest Quarterfinal, in which they took down Nebraska Wesleyan. In the Final Four the Pipers lost to Oneonta State by five in the semis and then to Scranton by one in the consolation game.

No doubt the D3 tourney was still up-and-coming at that point in terms of small college basketball; 1977 was only the third year that it was held. And the NAIA tourney, which then as now consisted largely of scholarship teams, did have much more prestige than either of the NAIA tourneys (the organization has since split into NAIA-D1 and NAIA-D2 for basketball) does today. Nevertheless, I wouldn't wave off Hamline's accomplishment back then -- especially in light of the fact that the MIAC has not exactly covered itself in glory throughout the history of the D3 tourney (although Gustavus Adolphus did a nice job of trying to rectify that in 2003).

[columbianmaffia]

AK47
you know how we do it facebook style...that girl is 

[Russian Mig AK47]

Greg -- You are right, the MIAC tournament winner will probably be the only inclusion in the national tournament.  What puts you in a better position to win the tournament, finishing 1 or 2 and getting a bye, or playing an extra game versus possibly statistically better teams?  You will be hard pressed to convince me that a regional game is of more importance than a conference game.

Memo to Willy -- Go make chocolate bars if you have nothing more meaningful to write than a defense for someone who obviously doesn't need one.  Oh, and we clearly have different views on what constitutes someone being a "chump."  

Columbianmaffia -- Is that one of your friends?

[scoo8b]

That Augsburg game was ugly. I stayed for the whole thing and the Auggies started to look better towards the end but the Oles seemed to improve even more. Being a student, there was too much socializing for me to make any specific observations. I think it will be a long season for the Auggies though...

[Willy Wonka]

Mig - Where did Gregory say the MIAC would only get one this season and how do you figure to agree with that statement? GAC has respect up the wazoo around the nation (RE:pollsters) and - if they should beat Carthage on the road - will have a perfect non-conference mark (the Red Men game doesn't count for a region game, but it's still a nice perk). They'll have helped themselves where UST didn't.

We're getting WAY ahead of ourselves here but to take it one step further...if GAC finishes 16-4 in the MIAC (my prediction) and loses in the MIAC tourney title game (something you will undoubtably agree with), it will be nigh impossible to keep them out. Under this hypothetical situation, they will have a record of roughly 22-5 and their in-region variables should be top notch. It's obviously a long season and injuries can wreck the best laid plans, but it's quite possible that the MIAC gets two in.

As for the postseason bye...those will be nearly eliminated under the new format I believe. Beyond that, many coaches would rather play than receive the bye anyway. It gives some teams two weeks between games (RE: Stevens Point in 2003) and that's not a good thing when a tough opponent is coming to town with two games under its belt over that same stretch. UWSP's Bennett was very outspoken about this the last few years.

Do you want some cheese with that whine? 

[Russian Mig AK47]

He didn't say only one team would get in, he just said that one team is assured to get in and if another team wanted in they would have to beat some regional teams.  I am saying that the MIAC tournament winner will probably be the only inclusion.  It is way too early to make a statement like that, but it's a prediction.  I know Gustavus has a lot of love out there, and god knows they can draw a crowd ($$$) if they play their cards right they can make the tournament without winning the MIAC tourney (especially with an expanded field). 

Do you want some wine with that cheese? 

[oleroll]

gordon bombay, is that you garvy?

[funbballer]

OK girls, you done pissing & moaning now?     Let's talk some basketball and forget about the "what ifs" scenarios. Geez, that's 3 months down the road.

There are some interesting matchups and dogfights going on today...let's talk about those.

1.  Can/will Eckhoff prove he's this stud everyone thinks he is (everyone else's words, not his) and see what he can produce vs the Gusties 'D'?

2.  Can/will Conboy produce big time vs UST and their inside strength and muscle? (Shimek will wear him down if he doesn't get in foul trouble.)

3.  It would be fun to watch the potential foul-infested brawl with Carleton & Hamline. Too bad Kootsikas is out...he'd lay some lumber on those HU boys.

4.  Will Koz continue to be a "no-show" for STO? Meaning, I'm assuming they've won because the team made him stay home. Or, will he show up, try to coach, and cost the Oles their next win?

5.  Can the Auggies break out of their scoring slump and put together some points to knock of SMU? SMU apparently played well vs WSU....are they better than we think?  (remember, WSU knocked a good UMD team a couple of weeks ago)

Willy....how good is the GAC women's team? Can they win the MIAC?

Also, keep on eye out on the UST women's team. New coach Ruth Sinn is an excellent teacher/coach of the game.

And finally, there's nothing wrong with a nice evening of wine & cheese! 

[Gregory Sager]

Greg -- You are right, the MIAC tournament winner will probably be the only inclusion in the national tournament.

No, no, no. That's not what I said. I said that the MIAC tournament winner is the only guaranteed MIAC entry in the big dance ... just like the other 35 leagues in D3 that have an automatic bid.

What puts you in a better position to win the tournament, finishing 1 or 2 and getting a bye, or playing an extra game versus possibly statistically better teams?  You will be hard pressed to convince me that a regional game is of more importance than a conference game.

I would be hard pressed to convince you of that because it isn't true. A "regional game" (by which I think you mean a non-conference regional game; remember, all conference games are regional games, too, and that's a crucial fact) is not of more importance than a conference game, and I would never state otherwise.

Willy's hypothetical about GAC finishing 22-5 and as the MIAC tourney runner-up is important. The Gusties have already beaten Bethany Lutheran, a non-regional game because Bethany Lutheran is still a probationary member of D3. Let's say that the Gusties beat Minnesota-Morris (likewise, a probationary D3 member and thus not a full-fledged West Region team yet) and lose to Carthage. GAC's West Region record thus ends up as 20-4, a mark so good it practically guarantees them a Pool C slot. My early guess is that the 18 Pool C slots will include teams that have regional records of the 20-6 or 18-5 or 17-5 ilk.

What I'm saying is that, because the MIAC is so large, its teams build their resumes for Pool C based upon conference games to a greater degree than other conferences. Take my CCIW, for example. It only has eight teams, so only 14 of the 25 regular-season games are played "in-house", as it were. This magnifies the importance of non-conference regional games. With the conference adding a four-team postseason tournament this season, that's a maximum of 16 of 27 games that a CCIW tournament second-place team (and, thus, most logical Pool C aspirant) would play against its seven league rivals. The MIAC, by contrast, has 11 teams and plays a 20-game double round-robin. Add two or three more games in the MIAC postseason tourney, and you're looking at 22 or 23 of 27 or 28 games played against other MIAC teams. Non-conference regional games are thus more important to teams from the CCIW or other leagues that are smaller than the MIAC (i.e., most of them), because they count as a statistically larger percentage of the overall regional record.

However, other relevant criteria -- record against regionally-ranked teams, head-to-head record against other teams in the region aspiring to Pool C, etc. -- could be crucial in terms of the St. Thomas/UW-Stout game, because the Blue Devils are good enough to be one of those other teams vying for a Pool C slot on Selection Monday.

As for the postseason bye...those will be nearly eliminated under the new format I believe.

Actually, if I read Russian Mig correctly, I think he's talking about the two byes in the MIAC tourney, not the byes in the NCAA tourney.

He didn't say only one team would get in, he just said that one team is assured to get in and if another team wanted in they would have to beat some regional teams.

Well ... yeah, but don't misconstrue what I mean by "regional teams". Games against MIAC opponents are West Region games, too. As I stated above, the UW-Stout game is only going to be 1/25th or 1/26th of St. Thomas's West Region record. That makes it more important for the Tommies than the games against Kalamazoo or Culver-Stockton, but not hugely so in the overall scheme of things. What makes the loss to the Blue Devils big is that UW-Stout could be a genuine contender this season, magnifying the loss in terms of the other criteria.

I know Gustavus has a lot of love out there, and god knows they can draw a crowd ($$$) if they play their cards right they can make the tournament without winning the MIAC tourney (especially with an expanded field).

If GAC does have "a lot of love out there", it's completely irrelevant love. Nor is the size of their crowds important, except for how it enters into the calculations of who gets to host sectional games. Nobody gets into the D3 tournament based upon what happened in past seasons. (If they did, North Park and UW-Platteville would get permanent tickets to the dance.  ) And nobody gets in based upon how big a draw they are at the gate. The Gusties will have to earn their way in by how they performed in terms of the five primary criteria this season if they want a Pool C berth, just like everybody else.

[big_shocker]

Jeez- I stay off the board for a couple of days, and everybody's getting all testy. Long posts, porr predictions, name calling, etc. Seems like there's some animosity on the board, which might not always be a bad thing.

Going to watch AUG today, hoping to see and old buddy from high school light up the place. If not, oh well, at least I can claim I saw and AUG game this year. That doesn't happen too often.

WW- I'm done with work at 4 on Wednesday, and heading down shortly after. Patty's sounds excellent to me, and it would also be nice to see a little GAC women's BB. That's my plan.

[Willy Wonka]

funbb - If Eckhoff is shut down - a relative term, given his propensity to get to the line - will that validate Hollerich's defensive abilities? In two games last year he finished 10-26 from the field, mostly againt Trenticles.

As for the women...they were picked to finish third in the coaches poll. They've got two standouts in Monahan and Vadnais and a solid core of role players. Their other bigs have been battling injury and played poorly thus far, so they'll need to get through the holidays with a decent record and heal during X-Mas break if they are to have any chance at the title.

I get riled up and take shots. Gregory gets riled up and writes a book where he lays out his points in a clear, concise manner. The lession, as always: don't smoke crack 

Off to St. Peter I go.

BS - I'll give you a call and we can work something out for Wednesday.

[big_shocker]

WW-

Cool. Give me a call and update me on the GAC/CON game tonight. I'm very interested to see how both teams fare.