MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[d3bballfollower]

i think the johnnies will sweep morris this year...morris has a few bigs in farmer and mcnally and a nice little guard in kelzenburg, but ohme will outplay him and the size on the wing and the johnnies depth will be too much for the cougars...plus seeing that the johnnies will probably start 5 seniors they will have much more experience and hopefully will understand that to go as far as possible they need to win the games they should...these are 2 games that they SHOULD win...and that they will win

[d3bballfollower]

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

[miacwatchmen]

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

Ding Ding Ding....Congrats to Follower. He has asked the magical question. Everyone on this board has wondered the same thing about the Cobbs. Maybe Cobbernation could enlighten us on the situation in Moorhead?

[sumander]

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

Wasn't it Jdowney(?) who was touting this Lebsock kid as the next coming of MJ last spring?

[miacwatchmen]

I just took a look at the Cobbers roster and I imagine they will need one or two of their four 6'7'' post players to step up. Also, I remember Cody Dyshaw got playing time last year for the Cobbs. Schulz and Grieme are solid guards for the Cobbers. Grieme is a gunner and Schulz seems to be more of a complete player. I expect some of these guys to pick it up this season.

[Drake Palmer]

Gawd – we're hurting for info fellas.    The schools could at least put complete rosters up & or post their team preview articles.  So far SMU, SJU, STO & Hamline are the only schools to have posted their media guide/ season previews.  For a fee,  you can pay 5.00 to read the Oles' media guide. Fortunately the season starts on Friday & we can quit speculating & actually see for ourselves who the players are. 

Alright, based on what limited info I have on the Cobbs, here's what I know or can guess.  On the radio interview I heard several weeks ago, Coach Siverson spoke highly of his new posts - the interestingly named FY post 6-7 James Baldwin, & 6-7 Jr transfer post Erik Johnson.  He also mentioned that Soren Nelson's younger brother, Ty Nelson seemed to have put in a lot of work in the off-season which should pay dividends this year.  Out of the other returnees, I would guess that either JR PG Anthony Boike or forward Ryan Johnson might be the 3rd leg in the 3-legged stool.

What I really want to know is this - how's the big FY post in St. Peter Mr. Paulson doing, & did Bethel's Mike Moberg really shrink 2 inches over the summer? 

[d3bballfollower]

i also think that along with finding a post presence, the cobbers are going to need someone to fill the role mark dixon played...he was always good for 8-12 pts and 6+ boards a game, not to mention he was a scrapper and played defense...he definitely was the heart of that team

[cobbernation]

i also think that along with finding a post presence, the cobbers are going to need someone to fill the role mark dixon played...he was always good for 8-12 pts and 6+ boards a game, not to mention he was a scrapper and played defense...he definitely was the heart of that team

Gawd – we're hurting for info fellas.    The schools could at least put complete rosters up & or post their team preview articles.  So far SMU, SJU, STO & Hamline are the only schools to have posted their media guide/ season previews.  For a fee,  you can pay 5.00 to read the Oles' media guide. Fortunately the season starts on Friday & we can quit speculating & actually see for ourselves who the players are. 

Alright, based on what limited info I have on the Cobbs, here's what I know or can guess.  On the radio interview I heard several weeks ago, Coach Siverson spoke highly of his new posts - the interestingly named FY post 6-7 James Baldwin, & 6-7 Jr transfer post Erik Johnson.  He also mentioned that Soren Nelson's younger brother, Ty Nelson seemed to have put in a lot of work in the off-season which should pay dividends this year.  Out of the other returnees, I would guess that either JR PG Anthony Boike or forward Ryan Johnson might be the 3rd leg in the 3-legged stool.

What I really want to know is this - how's the big FY post in St. Peter Mr. Paulson doing, & did Bethel's Mike Moberg really shrink 2 inches over the summer? 

I just took a look at the Cobbers roster and I imagine they will need one or two of their four 6'7'' post players to step up. Also, I remember Cody Dyshaw got playing time last year for the Cobbs. Schulz and Grieme are solid guards for the Cobbers. Grieme is a gunner and Schulz seems to be more of a complete player. I expect some of these guys to pick it up this season.

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

Wasn't it Jdowney(?) who was touting this Lebsock kid as the next coming of MJ last spring?

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

Ding Ding Ding....Congrats to Follower. He has asked the magical question. Everyone on this board has wondered the same thing about the Cobbs. Maybe Cobbernation could enlighten us on the situation in Moorhead?

who do people think, if there is anyone, will be the 3rd musketeer along with linz and citterman for the cobbers?  because if they get a 3rd key player they could definitely throw some wrinkles into the plans of those teams in the middle of the pack

Indeed the cobbers need to find a 3rd player who will come through all year long, unfortunately right now their isn't one.  We will find that out when the season starts.  It may take a few games to see who Siverson is going to play for the majority of the games.  I would say that Ryan Johnson, Jr from Duluth will see a lot of time along with Gavin Ganab, Jr from Coon Rapids.  The point will be run by Shultz, Meischner, or Lebsock.  From what I heard is that Lebsock was all state in bball and football as a senior at Frenchtown MT.  I will try to visit with both Lebsock and Baldwin on their roles for the upcoming season. 

Stay tuned for more updates from Moorhead!

[miacwatchmen]

i also think that along with finding a post presence, the cobbers are going to need someone to fill the role mark dixon played...he was always good for 8-12 pts and 6+ boards a game, not to mention he was a scrapper and played defense...he definitely was the heart of that team

I think the heart of the team went down near the start of the season with a knee injury..... Keith Eckoff.

[d3bballfollower]

watchmen- you are right about eckhoff being the heart of the cobbers' team...i guess i should have used different words to describe dixon's role...i guess what i was trying to say was that even though he wasn't the most glamorous guy, he got the job done night in and night out and was a guy the cobbers could count on to do the "dirty work" on the boards and on defense...it would've been fun to watch that team though at full strength with both eckhoff and linz healthy for the entire year

[cobbernation]

Indeed losing preseason all-american Keith Eckoff was a big blow to the CC team.  But now that is in the past and CC is looking forward with a pretty young team.  There are no seniors on CC team this season, which means little experience for the returning players.

Sounds like for the starting five to begin the season will be Linz, Baldwin, Boike, Citterman, Johnson.  With Schulz and Dyshaw coming off the bench. 

CC plays MSUM on next tuesday to start off the season, with a new addition of Josh Downey as an assistant coach.

Like I said it should be an interesting year and after UST at the top it could be wide open when the conference season starts.

[Gregory Sager]

On a national level the MIAC is probably viewed as being in the 2nd or even 3rd highest tier of teams & conferences. CCIW, MIAA, WIAC, NCAC conferences are all rated higher than the MIAC.

That's close to how I'd call it, DP. I'd say that the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, OAC, MIAA, and NJAC are better, with the HCAC, ODAC, and UAA being at about the same level as the MIAC. The NCAC has two programs at the top that the MIAC can't really touch, Wooster and Wittenberg, but it's an exceptionally weak conference at the bottom. I've seen some bad MIAC teams before, and I'd still rate them above the likes of Oberlin, Kenyon, Hiram, and Denison.

As for getting two teams into the tourney, that's not always an accurate measurement of how comparatively strong a league happens to be in any given year. There've been plenty of recent seasons (prior to the Pool C expansion last year) in which the WIAC or the CCIW (or both) was relegated to only one team, because the league cannibalized itself to the point where nobody other than the AQ had a good enough record to get into the field as an at-large. In other words, getting in two teams can often be more of a sign of a league's lopsidedness (the NCAC is a classic example) than of its overall prowess.

The MIAC is different than most other conferences in that it is somewhat insulated by its size. With eleven member schools playing men's sports, and a full double round-robin schedule for basketball, MIAC teams end up playing 20 of their 25 regular-season games in-house. Most other conferences get nine or eleven (or at least seven) non-conference games apiece for their teams, which establishes a good baseline for how those particular conferences stack up against the others. MIAC teams only get five apiece, so it's often harder to compare individual MIAC teams to teams from other conferences.

Here's how these various conferences performed in non-conference (including postseason) play last year:

UAA	67	22	.753
NESCAC	122	49	.713
NJAC	65	28	.699
WIAC	62	34	.646
CCIW	66	37	.641
HCAC	65	37	.637
MIAA	62	43	.590
OAC	49	34	.590
ODAC	48	38	.558
MIAC	32	35	.478

Cumulative non-conference records can be a slightly deceiving manner of comparing conference strength, because it's subject to variables of relative competition. The NJAC and NESCAC are in relatively weak regions, for instance, so most of their non-conference games are against teams from marginally competent, or negligibly competent, leagues. Additionally, the NESCAC only plays a single round-robin, so they can really load up on the cupcakes every year. But this chart does give you at least one season's snapshot of relative conference strength. And this chart doesn't vary wildly from one year to the next; regardless of which particular teams end up at the top or the bottom of each respective league, good leagues tend to stay good, middling leagues tend to stay middling, and poor leagues tend to stay poor.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

On a national level the MIAC is probably viewed as being in the 2nd or even 3rd highest tier of teams & conferences. CCIW, MIAA, WIAC, NCAC conferences are all rated higher than the MIAC.

That's close to how I'd call it, DP. I'd say that the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, OAC, MIAA, and NJAC are better, with the HCAC, ODAC, and UAA being at about the same level as the MIAC. The NCAC has two programs at the top that the MIAC can't really touch, Wooster and Wittenberg, but it's an exceptionally weak conference at the bottom. I've seen some bad MIAC teams before, and I'd still rate them above the likes of Oberlin, Kenyon, Hiram, and Denison.

As for getting two teams into the tourney, that's not always an accurate measurement of how comparatively strong a league happens to be in any given year. There've been plenty of recent seasons (prior to the Pool C expansion last year) in which the WIAC or the CCIW (or both) was relegated to only one team, because the league cannibalized itself to the point where nobody other than the AQ had a good enough record to get into the field as an at-large. In other words, getting in two teams can often be more of a sign of a league's lopsidedness (the NCAC is a classic example) than of its overall prowess.

The MIAC is different than most other conferences in that it is somewhat insulated by its size. With eleven member schools playing men's sports, and a full double round-robin schedule for basketball, MIAC teams end up playing 20 of their 25 regular-season games in-house. Most other conferences get nine or eleven (or at least seven) non-conference games apiece for their teams, which establishes a good baseline for how those particular conferences stack up against the others. MIAC teams only get five apiece, so it's often harder to compare individual MIAC teams to teams from other conferences.

Greg-
While on the whole I agree with your opinion, I do take exception to the part about Wooster & Wittenberg.

A quick look shows that St. Thomas of the MIAC is 3-0 all-time vs. Wooster (and 0-1 vs. Wittenberg), so maybe you meant Wooster doesn't stack up vs. the MIAC?  

I know Wooster has one of the best program in the nation, year in and year out and agree that it a power that most of the MIAC - heck, most of the nation- is hard pressed to compete with. But it does speak volumes for the program at UST when Wooster regularly invites the Tommies to play in their season-opening tourney, which UST has won a few times.

But on the whole, your point that the MIAC has a less than stellar non-conference record is valid. Perhaps that can be attributed to MIAC teams cannibalizing each other playing a gruesome 20-game conference schedule? Why does the WIAC always (in all sports) get the benefit of the doubt that its intense conference schedule "cannibalizes" its members as they beat each other up and other leagues don't? To me, playing a 20 game schedule against the same rivals (and doing it in an 11 week stretch) IS brutal and cannibalistic.  It would be nice to only play 12, 14 or 16 league games and pad the schedule with a few creampuff games against UMAC or other bottom feeders.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg-
While on the whole I agree with your opinion, I do take exception to the part about Wooster & Wittenberg.

A quick look shows that St. Thomas of the MIAC is 3-0 all-time vs. Wooster (and 0-1 vs. Wittenberg), so maybe you meant Wooster doesn't stack up vs. the MIAC?  

I know Wooster has one of the best program in the nation, year in and year out and agree that it a power that most of the MIAC - heck, most of the nation- is hard pressed to compete with. But it does speak volumes for the program at UST when Wooster regularly invites the Tommies to play in their season-opening tourney, which UST has won a few times.

C'mon, Maniac ... you're asserting UST's hegemony over Wooster based upon three games over the span of however many years both schools have been playing basketball? I think it's pretty clear to anyone who follows the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll every year that Wooster's is the more highly-respected program. It's not dissing the Tommies to acknowledge that, 'cuz almost no programs in all of D3 have been on a par with the Fighting Scots in this decade.

But on the whole, your point that the MIAC has a less than stellar non-conference record is valid. Perhaps that can be attributed to MIAC teams cannibalizing each other playing a gruesome 20-game conference schedule?

No, because that theory reads the calendar backwards. Like everybody else, MIAC teams play most or all of their conference games after the non-conference schedule has been completed. Any cannibalization, in other words, takes place after the non-conference record has already been set in stone for the most part.

Why does the WIAC always (in all sports) get the benefit of the doubt that its intense conference schedule "cannibalizes" its members as they beat each other up and other leagues don't?

I can't and won't speak to the point of other sports, but in men's basketball the assertion that the WIAC has cannibalized itself on occasion is a fair one. Almost everyone who follows D3 men's basketball agrees that the WIAC is the premier conference on this level; yet from 1998 (when the tournament was shrunk from 64 teams down to 48) to 2005 (the last year before the field was expanded again to the current 59 teams) the WIAC was relegated to only one representative in the big dance more often than not. Of those eight tournaments, five had only one WIAC representative. You'd think that the best conference in all the land would have at least a second team in the field as an at-large, right? The reason why they didn't was because cannibalization kept them from getting one of those rare-as-hen's-teeth at-large bids.

To me, playing a 20 game schedule against the same rivals (and doing it in an 11 week stretch) IS brutal and cannibalistic.  It would be nice to only play 12, 14 or 16 league games and pad the schedule with a few creampuff games against UMAC or other bottom feeders.

I highly applaud the MIAC for playing a full double round-robin, in spite of the league's size. I've always felt that a double round-robin is the only way to come up with a true champion in a basketball league, and to me leagues such as the MWC that stop short of a full double (each MWC team plays two of its league rivals only once apiece) taints the trophy. And don't get me started on the farce that is the NESCAC, with their freakin' single round-robin! The MIAC regular-season champs can be proud of the fact that they did more to earn their conference title than did anyone else in all of D3.

Nevertheless, that doesn't necessarily mean that the conference is more prone to cannibalization than anyone else. Large league or not, only once in the past decade has the MIAC regular-season champion failed to achieve at least a 17-3 record in league play, and only twice has the runner-up finished as low as 15-5.

[d3bballfollower]

Greg- I totally agree with you about Wooster...since 2000 they have produced the most wins of any d3 team in the nation and are positioned nicely this year to be the favorite to win it all by many people

As far as scheduling...having played at Hamilton I have a first hand knowledge of how terrible NESCAC rules are...even though Hamilton is in the liberty league for basketball we still had to abide by NESCAC rules...for instance- we couldn't start practice until nov. 1...that means that when all NESCAC teams start practice they are 2 weeks behind everyone else in the country...second, if i were a team like tufts, bates or williams i would really pusy for a double round robin because anyone can knock off someone else at any time in the NESCAC...thankfully the NESCAC took their heads out of the ground in '95 when they finally started allowing teams to participate in the NCAA tourney...still have yet to do that for football...sorry trinity and williams...you're totally right Greg, for how "intelligent" the NESCAC is they still have a lot to learn