MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I think I might have openly exposed Bumkneez' favorite movie.  I bet he even had those movie facts bookmarked.  Don't tell me Kneez that you use to measure the hoop prior to UST games just to prove that it is the same height as the hoop mounted on your garage.  I bet you still own a pair of Chuck Taylors and frequently obsess over the hottness of Barbara Hershey.  Am I right???

[Gregory Sager]

I agree with VOJ on calling a spade a spade....

That post rivaled a Greg Sager post! lol 

Oh, I freely concede that I've never written a post that long. Not that I'm complaining, as I enjoyed Jimmy's take on the Carroll @ UST game.

[Gregory Sager]

VOJ, that is the beauty of editing and re-takes.  However, if you watch closely, Jimmy actually does miss a shot when he is shooting by himself out back of the school on that dirt court (or maybe it is clay-Wimbledon ancestor???)  Anyway, after burying shot after shot, he finally misses as the camera starts to pan away.  I guess they had to make him look human.

No, the point of having Jimmy miss that shot was to non-verbally illustrate his surprise at Norman Dale's last words before the coach walked away. Dale concludes his one-sided conversation with Jimmy by telling him that he doesn't care if the kid plays basketball for him or not. Jimmy, who from early boyhood has been practically deified by the townspeople as their homegrown basketball prodigy, has grown used to being viewed as a commodity rather than as a person. Dale's monologue essentially removes Jimmy's prize-pig-at-the-county-fair status, because he tells Jimmy that he refuses to genuflect before him. Dale's right to do that, because if he begged Jimmy to play he would lose his right to command the kid's respect as his coach.

But there's more to it than that -- by telling Jimmy that he is not important to him as a basketball player, Dale strips him of his entire public identity and essentially tells the kid that he's just another student. And that's what Jimmy secretly wants -- he wants someone to treat him like a human being instead of as an icon. The only person who does so is Myra Fleener, and Dale has cannily observed that she is the only person Jimmy trusts. In order to get Jimmy to play basketball for him and accept him as his coach, he needs to earn that trust as well. So Dale opens the possibility in Jimmy's mind that he will treat him like a normal human being by initially dismissing him as the potential savior of the Hickory High basketball team.

It's a clever bit of reverse psychology, and the way that Hoosiers director David Anspaugh shows us that Dale's gotten inside Jimmy's head is to have Jimmy, who shoots even better than Bryan Schnettler , miss that final shot as Dale walks away.

[Gregory Sager]

Well hopefully Winona will be able to keep the streak alive and do Minnesota proud. 

.. or Wisconsin, since the bulk of the Winona State rotation consists of Cheeseheads, just like last year. And the big boy in the middle who threw down that filthy YouTube dunk, John Smith, is an Illinoisian from Chicago's northwest suburbs.

[AO]

Well hopefully Winona will be able to keep the streak alive and do Minnesota proud. 

.. or Wisconsin, since the bulk of the Winona State rotation consists of Cheeseheads, just like last year. And the big boy in the middle who threw down that filthy YouTube dunk, John Smith, is an Illinoisian from Chicago's northwest suburbs.

Right, and since Kammron Taylor is a Minneapolis North product, every Badger win in the tourney will count for Minnesota as well.

[Gregory Sager]

Well hopefully Winona will be able to keep the streak alive and do Minnesota proud. 

.. or Wisconsin, since the bulk of the Winona State rotation consists of Cheeseheads, just like last year. And the big boy in the middle who threw down that filthy YouTube dunk, John Smith, is an Illinoisian from Chicago's northwest suburbs.

Right, and since Kammron Taylor is a Minneapolis North product, every Badger win in the tourney will count for Minnesota as well.

That's just one guy.

Three of the five players who've started every game for Winona State this season are Wisconsin natives. One's a Minnesotan, and the other one's an Illinoisian. There are seven players from Wisconsin on the WSU roster, six from Minnesota, two from Illinois, and one from Iowa.

The Wisconsinites account for 49% of the team's points and 39% of their rebounds. The Minnesotans contribute 29% of the points and 24% of the rebounds, and the Illinois contingent adds 20% of the points and 27% of the rebounds. The Iowa guy adds 2% of the points and 3% of the boards.

(Lest anyone start howling about my math skills, please note that I rounded off the percentages. )

I'm just making the point that, while Winona State may "do Minnesota proud" again, the Warriors are importing a lot of their talent from the other side of the St. Croix and Mississippi.

[Nites]

Well hopefully Winona will be able to keep the streak alive and do Minnesota proud. 

.. or Wisconsin, since the bulk of the Winona State rotation consists of Cheeseheads, just like last year. And the big boy in the middle who threw down that filthy YouTube dunk, John Smith, is an Illinoisian from Chicago's northwest suburbs.

.... and where is Winona?  Oh yeah, it's still in Minnesota, right?  Or did it get moved to Wisconsin, or maybe Illinois?   

Florida Gators, defending D-I champs; 1 starter from Florida (Taurean Green); only 6 out of 14 rosters players from Florida and I still think they refer to the team as the Florida Gators.   

[VOJ]

VOJ-- I assume you made similar "protect the home front" remarks after Hamline visited SJU in the playoffs last year.    that quote is from MM....

MM...I was not posting last year, like I was this year...but truth be told that loss was the best thing that happened to this years team...Yes they played not to lose instead of to win against Hamline, but at least two games this year could have gone that way again, the Hamline regular season game with last years playoff contest fresh in their minds and this years Gustavus playoff game, they had a big lead at the half and did not want to let up. 

There is a MAJOR difference between SJU this year and UST this year, the Johnnies with most if not all of the same team coming back for this season used that loss as motivation and had the talent to move on in the playoffs and win an NCAA game, the Tommies will lose the heart soul and talent from a very good team and may be pressed to make the MIAC playoffs.  The saying is survive and advance...right? 

Sumander...I think that UWSP is the best shooting team and one of the better rebounding teams the J's have played...they are tough and have players who are all about hustle.  Here is the other other thing, if the J's who trailed 31-26 at one time had not been outscored 15-0 by a high profile attack the J's showing would have been much better, J's outscored them in the second half 47-45.  They are kings of the 3 ball and have great athletes...I think they would beat SCSU and probably because of home court stood a great chance to beat the Toms, because you can't cheat off anyone...they all shoot well from downtown.

Oh by the way Jimmy C...it was shooter who uttered the line "don't get caught watching the paint dry", remember the great Norman Dale had been thrown out after uttering another classic line "you got pigeon sh*% in your eye?"  Throw me out or I will start yelling like a madman..." "ref replies, guess you got your reasons"

Shooter of course knows everything there is to know about the greatest game ever invented...sorry getting chills just thinking about the greatest movie ever made...a close second is Heartbreak Ridge...love Clint...sorry I digress

[VOJ]

[/quote]
Right, and since Kammron Taylor is a Minneapolis North product, every Badger win in the tourney will count for Minnesota as well.
[/quote]

If you add in the wins that Kam Taylor is reponsible for the U might be NIT eligible...then again...maybe not...I gotta think they will get hammered by Michigan in the 1st round of the Big Ten...yes they play hard but at this time of year they are tired and I gotta think that they are ready for the season to be over...

[sumander]

Dang fellas (Kneez, Chitwood, Mig) - why y'all bringing all the posting heat now at the end of the season?!?  This is good stuff. 

JC - you pop out of the woodwork today after being gone all season, & Kneez, you show up again in the last couple of weeks.  As with VOJ, I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, but this is provocative, entertaining stuff. We could have had some nice convo going on between the axis of past & present powers in St. Paul, St. Pete's & St. Johns.

Drake, Gotta agree with you on this one! Great analysis, if a person wasn't careful you might actually learn something too! Just wish we could keep it going til next November.

VOJ, Very tough to hang with a team when they shoot and unbelievable 82% from the field like Point did to end the half! J's certainly did not roll over in the second half like they could have.

[columbianmaffia]

dennis the menace was pretty smooth...i miss that pick n roll with him and big ike...that was fun to watch

[sju4life]

old school
"St. John's shot well to start and the score was...12-12.  The Johnnies seemed to be doing everything right to start the game and Point everything wrong and when the Johnnies looked up at the scoreboard to see they were TIED, that had to be discouraging."

I have been waiting to post about the SJU game just to see everyone elses opinions and I dont think I agree with what you said old school.  SJU was tied 21-21 with about 9 minutes remaining in the first half and mostly played without craig schaefer so I would think they were pretty excited.  With 6 minutes remaining it was 29-24 sju down only 5.  I think they way everyone talked about them getting killed, going into halftime down by 5 would have been a victory for them.  Minus the last 7 minutes of the first half I think SJU outplayed Stevens point for the other 33 minutes.

Stevens point os obviosuly an incredible team and very fun to watch but I do not think they are 17 points better like the final score indicated.  Stevens point shot about 5% fg better then they normally do and 8% better from the three point range then normal and for SJU to win i think they needed stevens point to play an average game at best which didnt happen.  Ohme continually ran a simple ucla cut in the 2nd half and got at least 4 layups off of it.  I was not super impressed with stevens points defense. Offensively they can light it up though but I do think if Craig would have played more and SJU could have went to him more the game would have been a lot closer. I would guess that at a neutral site SJU could be stevens point 3 out of every 10 games.  I think the tommies could have really given point problems because point was more athletic then SJU and i think the tommies could have competed more athletically then sju could.

although impossible I would have loved to see the outcome of the game if stevens point didnt end the first half on a 27 to 8 run shooting i think someone said 83% in that stretch.

[ustbumkneez]

In regards to some of the points made about Fritz and the rest of the UST staff, Id like to offer a rebuttal. Yes, there were 'extremes' in energy from the opposing sides of the bench on Saturday night, but that didnt have anything to do with the play on the court. Just because Schultz was running around screaming, and throwing tantrums a 5 year old would envy, doesnt mean his team was playing any harder than the Tommies were. You play hard as an athlete because you know thats what youre supposed to do. If you need a coach to remind you of that, then youre not much of a player to begin with. The game was about execution, not effort. Carroll did it, UST did not.

For someone to try and insinuate that Steve Fritz is not intense is laughable. Go sit in a huddle during a timeout in a 3 point game, walk behind the bench as the ball comes down to the UST defensive end after a no-call down low on the other side, or or come to a practice after the Tommies played lackadaisical basketball the night before. Coaches who have the respect of their players, who have instilled in those players the belief that they wont lose a game because of a lack of coaching, are the ones who have the most success. Smith, Hanson, Fritz? Sure, none of them will storm out on the court and rip their jacket off, but I bet almost all their former players would describe them as intense men with a drive to win. And, frankly, the numbers are in those coaches favor. Wohler, Koz, Ammann? I think you get my point.

You wont beat St Thomas because they are unprepared. That, I can guarantee. What the staff lacks in "rah rah" they more than make up for in "xs and os". As a player at UST, you know the coaching staff will have a game plan that will allow you to win-its your job to execute it. I never went into a game, nor left the floor, thinking we lost because of a coaching move or because we were unprepared. Do I agree with everything that happens? No. Would I change some things? Probably. But, like I said, the man has won a ton of games doing things his way. And you cant argue the numbers. People have said the bench should have been longer, but Fritz has always kept, and won with, a small rotation (which by the way this year routinely saw 10 guys get 5+ minutes, almost unheard of in Tommie hoops).

Schultz definitely deserves credit for what he has done with the Pioneers, and I believe I have given him his dues on 2-3 different occasions this past week. He is the type of coach that is needed to invigorate a dormant program, as Carroll certainly was before he got there. He is fiery and passionate, no doubt about it, and those qualities have served him well in turning the Pioneers around. That said, I think his 'schtick' will wear thin. At a certain point in time, you get past that, and you just coach your players. Lets not reduce the game to a matter of what bench was excited, and who was yelling loudest. That takes away from Carrolls performance, and questions the Tommies heart. Neither is appropriate, nor fair.

[columbianmaffia]

You play hard as an athlete because you know thats what youre supposed to do. If you need a coach to remind you of that, then youre not much of a player to begin with. The game was about execution, not effort. Carroll did it, UST did not.

as they would say in NBA JAM on sega genisus...

"HE PUT THE NAIL IN THE COFFIN!"

[Jimmy Chitwood]

  Bumkneez, you completely missed my point.  As I later followed up to my original post, I reaffirmed that I wasn't by any means saying that excitement or energy levels were the difference in the game.  That would be a ridiculous proposition.  When it was all said in done, the Tommies lost because of execution, and more importantly exectution of THEIR OWN game plan. 
     The whole point of my original post is that I think there are certain intangibles in the playoffs that can propel a team to victory--even if it is an inferior team.  Your statement about the coaches and how they shouldn't be responsible for getting their team motivated is accurate.  However, even the most competitive players need motivation and direction sometimes.  That is why there are coaches.  Not only are the coaches responsible for X's and O's, but they are also responsible for preparing the team mentally and getting their heads in the game.  If it always came down to the understanding of X's and O's than it would be a given that the teams with the most intelligent coaches would win.  This is not the case.  That is only part of the equation.  Yes, the X's and O's are important but there are other variables in the equation for a winning performance.  This is where my whole posting becomes relevant.
     You are insinuating in your post that I am saying that the game was reduced to excitement levels.  This is completely wrong.  I just chose to focus on excitement/energy as one variable that could have helped the Tommies pull out a win.  I isolated this variable because to me it is a very important part of the equation.  This is why there are cinderallas and teams with inferior talent making playoff runs in all divisions of collegiate hoops.  This is why there are upsets.  So when Bucknell, George Mason and other small scale teams beat major conference teams in the NCAA tourney, are you telling me that it is simply because these smaller teams have coaches that better understand X's and O's???  I seldom think that is the case.  Rather, these teams that should have no business beating these 1 and 2 seeds are winning because the coaches have installed a mentallity in them that they CAN win.  A positive attitude creates confidence and confidence is an intangible that can single-handedly put a team in the win column. 
     If Schnettler and Ike didn't have confidence, they would never be as good as they were.  Confidence is huge, especially in playoff runs.  That is why teams with inferior talent and with all the odds stacked against them can go on the road twice in a few days and upset teams EXPECTED to win.  Top rated teams sometimes underestimate their opponent and don't really prepare themselves mentally.  I am not saying this is the case in the Tommie game, but there is a reason that underdogs consistantly upset top ranked teams--year after year.  And it seldom is a case of X's and O's.  IMHO, I think the biggest factor in a playoff run is mentality and heart. 
     This was my whole point in my original post.  I think that heart and mentality can be elicited from a head coach that can bring that out of them.  I do believe that the Tommies wanted the game, and bad.  I am not saying they didn't have the heart, but what I am saying is that I think excitement and high energy levels can make a team more focued and confident. 
     The Pioneers had no business coming into The Shoe and winning--NONE.  On paper (X's and O's) the Tommies had a winning squad.  I am not saying Carroll didn't earn their win, but they shouldn't have won.  All signs pointed towards the Tommies moving onto the next weekend.  The Pioneers didn't get caught up in all the hype of playing a top-10 team on the road.  No, they came in and took care of business.  Completely threw the Tommies off their game plan and looked like the veteran team that the Tommies should have been.
     The bottom line is the Tommies lost because they failed to execute.  I just was simply saying that I think that if they would have been more "pumped up" by their coaching staff, they maybe could have stayed focused and stuck to what got them there.  I think that excitement and energy are variables that the Tommies came up short on.  I have seen Fritz snap on his players, and I know he has the ability to get in his kids face.  This is good and all, but like I said in my original post, this doesn't breed confidence but rather a scared team that might become more focused on not screwing up than going out and attacking. 
     Lastly, since you brought up X's and O's, if it was so obvious to us fans that the Tommies were not playing "Tommie Basketball," then why didn't the coaching staff call an immediate time out and remind them of what got them there.  I think they should have made better adjustments in the first half, as it was more than obvious to us fans that they had drifted away from their game plan. 
     I am not trying to bash the coaching staff at UST, as I know they are stand up individuals and Fritz' record speaks for itself.  Fritz has been very successful and at no point was I trying to imply that he wasn't up to the challenge.  I was just simply pointing out an intangible that I think would have helped the Tommies stay true to themselves.  The Tommies had the talent and the game plan to win, but came up way short of their expectations, and in this time of second guessing, excitment and energy is just one thing that I think could have made a difference.