MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hoops10101010]

It's really unfortunate to see everyone downgrading Bethel now that they lost a great basketball game to an extremely talented and scrappy Piper squad. Instead of questioning Bethel's talent level or team play, maybe it's time to give Whitemore's newly improved Pipers some credit. Obviously it's still early, but so far in conference play, they have beaten a solid St. Olaf team and a Bethel team that nearly everyone on here was ready to put in the MIAC Hall of Fame. I didn't get to the defeat of the Olies but I was able to see the battle they put up against a clearly more talented and experienced Bethel team. The heart these guys played with in unlike any Hamline team I have seen in recent history. A name I haven't seen mentioned on here is Luke Johansen for the Pipes. He has stepped up in his new starting role and done a great job knocking down big shots down the stretch. Brandon Hayes and Adam Egan were giving Laugen fits at the point defensively the entire game. Obviously, the numbers that the Clute kid is putting up are unbelievable. This last game is the only time I have really gotten to see him play but will be a star in this conference for the next few years. He will have to learn to use him teammates more to his advantage, but what great scorer doesn't? Thrasher is looking more like a seasoned veteran every day. He does a lot of little things for the team, which allows some other guys to run wild and play. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year Nick "Hometown Kid" Carroll (nice tattoo:D) isn't up for 6th man of the year in the MIAC. He seems to be getting more comfortable every game i watch him play and he really did some great things in the Bethel game on both ends of the floor. I don't mean to rant but I think some credit needs to be given to a pleasingly surprising Hamline team. Another huge test tomorrow at UST who is playing better than anyone in the conference. If you don't have anything going on, I'd come check out these two young scrappers battle it out for the first place spot in the conference.

[Nites]

It's really unfortunate to see everyone downgrading Bethel now that they lost a great basketball game to an extremely talented and scrappy Piper squad.

Gee, even the Bethel SID is turning on the team.   Already has them at 0-2 in the conference.  Story on the game on the Bethel website:

ARDEN HILLS, Minn. – The Royals led by as many as 11 points in the second half in their game against the Hamline Pipers, but ultimately fell 87-81.

Bethel led 81-80 with 50 seconds remaining.  However, Hamline's Eric Clute scored eight of his 31 points in the span of 14 seconds to put the Pipers up to stay.

Tim Madson (Jr., Redwood Falls, Minn.) scored 27 points to lead Bethel.  Mike Moberg (Jr., Plymouth, Minn.) and Nick Otterson (Jr., St. Paul, Minn.) also scored double digits with 15 and 14 points, respectively.

The loss drops Bethel to 3-2 overall and 0-2 in the MIAC.  Hamline improves to 2-3 overall and 2-0 in the conference.  The Royals will take on Gustavus next Monday at 7:30 in St. Peter, Minn., for their next game.

[VOJ]

I wonder how effective the stats to date will be in predicting wins and losses. Bethel is 88.8 in scoring offense and Hamiline is 66.8.

Scoring defense is very close with BU at 85.2 and Hamline at 80.5. Since the defensive numbers are so close are they a wash? Is the 20 point Bethel differnce in offense a predictor of the outcome? ...

Does anyone know if there is a MIAC QRF the way there is for high school ball?

W- I don't have time this morning to answer your question in detail, but no, there's no MIAC  league formula.  However, come the end of January or so, the national boards & ours to a lesser extent are buzzing with rankings & calculations, policy wonks & such.    Here are a couple of links for you on a wintery day to dig through.

http://www.d3hoops.com/scoreboard/mensrpi07.htm

Also, this season the NCAA is changing the way it calculates regional rankings which helps determine in a big way how teams are selected for the big dance, thus the following discussion/thread by some of the site's "heavy hitters"....

http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=5441.0

And lastly..  keep in mind the new formulas they'll be using this year will resemble the previous link I attached.

http://www.d3hoops.com/faq.php?category=NCAA%20Tournament

Drake, just a quick question...do you think the J's would have made the dance last year, under this year's criteria?

[abominable_snowman]

It's really unfortunate to see everyone downgrading Bethel now that they lost a great basketball game to an extremely talented and scrappy Piper squad. Instead of questioning Bethel's talent level or team play, maybe it's time to give Whitemore's newly improved Pipers some credit. Obviously it's still early, but so far in conference play, they have beaten a solid St. Olaf team and a Bethel team that nearly everyone on here was ready to put in the MIAC Hall of Fame. I didn't get to the defeat of the Olies but I was able to see the battle they put up against a clearly more talented and experienced Bethel team. The heart these guys played with in unlike any Hamline team I have seen in recent history. A name I haven't seen mentioned on here is Luke Johansen for the Pipes. He has stepped up in his new starting role and done a great job knocking down big shots down the stretch. Brandon Hayes and Adam Egan were giving Laugen fits at the point defensively the entire game. Obviously, the numbers that the Clute kid is putting up are unbelievable. This last game is the only time I have really gotten to see him play but will be a star in this conference for the next few years. He will have to learn to use him teammates more to his advantage, but what great scorer doesn't? Thrasher is looking more like a seasoned veteran every day. He does a lot of little things for the team, which allows some other guys to run wild and play. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year Nick "Hometown Kid" Carroll (nice tattoo:D) isn't up for 6th man of the year in the MIAC. He seems to be getting more comfortable every game i watch him play and he really did some great things in the Bethel game on both ends of the floor. I don't mean to rant but I think some credit needs to be given to a pleasingly surprising Hamline team. Another huge test tomorrow at UST who is playing better than anyone in the conference. If you don't have anything going on, I'd come check out these two young scrappers battle it out for the first place spot in the conference.

hoops- you have a few valid points in here. 

i also think that what this shows is that coaches with proven track records got there for a reason.  On a given night a more disciplined team can out-perform a more talented team.  Props to UST and HAM for their great starts.

But let's keep this season's mantra in mind:  The season is not a sprint.

A lot can change by February.
tonight's game will be intense.

[VOJ]

Don't make it over here too often and I'm sure it's old news, but what's up with Bethel?  Weren't they favored to win the MIAC?  Injuries or what?  Thanks.

Tom,

not sure what to make of Bethel...some people feel they have too many new pieces to bring together to make a run, but they do have some solid players...I have spoken to a few people around the league and opinions vary...

I got an up close look at the SMU Cardinals this weekend...they are an improved bunch, more athletic on the perimeter than they were last year, they press and are very good at it...their best player, Will Wright does not even start...they don't have great post players, but Rohr and Cormier are serviceable...both point guards are freshman and Holland looks like a pretty good one.  I could see them pulling an upset or two...

[hoops10101010]

hoops- you have a few valid points in here. 

i also think that what this shows is that coaches with proven track records got there for a reason.  On a given night a more disciplined team can out-perform a more talented team.  Props to UST and HAM for their great starts.

But let's keep this season's mantra in mind:  The season is not a sprint.

A lot can change by February.
tonight's game will be intense.

AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left. Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them. Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

[Drake Palmer]

hoops- you have a few valid points in here. 

i also think that what this shows is that coaches with proven track records got there for a reason.  On a given night a more disciplined team can out-perform a more talented team.  Props to UST and HAM for their great starts.

But let's keep this season's mantra in mind:  The season is not a sprint.

A lot can change by February.
tonight's game will be intense.

AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left. Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them. Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

This working for a living can be a drag some days!   

Ever the wise one, it looks like Steve Fritz knew this day was coming (running & pressing Hamline & SMU) & this is the deepest I've ever seen him go to his bench in years!  Plus, he's had the advantage of going up against Brockport & their former coach, & now Hamline coach, Nelson Whitmore. 
----------------------------
As Snow posted, Hoops1010 -- you bring up some interesting, if not valid posts, but I'd encourage you to post when the training wheels fall off, as I'm sure they will sometime this season, & not just when the baby Pipes are soaring high.  At this point I'd certainly concede the Pipers are scrappy, but I'm not so sure about the "extremely talented" part - just yet.  Johansen & Anderson need to spend much time in the weight room. 

One other nit I'd find with your post game summary – Bethel's Cory Laugen had 6 assists to just one TO, & the Oles' Steve Banick had 11 TOs to just 1 TO.  So to say Egan & Hayes gave Laugen "fits" might be a bit of a stretch. 

But with Hamline's style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  In the Ole/ Hamline game which I watched, I know Banick got a couple of assist "freebies" when he picked up the outlet pass off a defensive board, zipped the ball down court to a running Bobby Hunter, & the Pipes didn't have anybody back to prevent the leak out.

[columbianmaffia]

do some of the mens games this year start before the womens games again?  or did they switch it back to the good ol days?  i need to get to a game sometime

im gonna go watch a scrappy NDSU squad take on my gophers tonight...should be a good one

[abominable_snowman]

AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left.

I wouldn't say this brand of basketball is new to the conference.  Over the years various teams have gone this way depending on their personnell.

Who has SMU broken down?  This also assumes SMU and Hamline will be ABLE to run up and down all night. Expect to see GAC and UST slow down the tempo and make their opponents play defense and try to play halfcourt ball.

Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them.

talent vs. bigger stronger is the crux of this argument.   and also keep in mind that the score doesn't tell the whole story.  UST was a in a little funk at SMU, they missed easy passes and rebounds that normally they would have made.

Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

The one man argument, though in jest is pretty important.  I would be careful saying Brink is just one man.  A team with a strong on the court leader can really do well. (Sean Sweeny, Doug Espenson come to mind)

[WXYZ]

I'll be going down to cover the Gustavus vs. Bethel game this evening. It will be interesting to see this one. I'll be posting a story late tonight on minnesota preps. I'll also plan on adding some comments here on the board.

[hoops10101010]

As Snow posted, Hoops1010 -- you bring up some interesting, if not valid posts, but I'd encourage you to post when the training wheels fall off, as I'm sure they will sometime this season, & not just when the baby Pipes are soaring high.  At this point I'd certainly concede the Pipers are scrappy, but I'm not so sure about the "extremely talented" part - just yet.  Johansen & Anderson need to spend much time in the weight room. 

One other nit I'd find with your post game summary – Bethel's Cory Laugen had 6 assists to just one TO, & the Oles' Steve Banick had 11 TOs to just 1 TO.  So to say Egan & Hayes gave Laugen "fits" might be a bit of a stretch. 

But with Hamline's style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  In the Ole/ Hamline game which I watched, I know Banick got a couple of assist "freebies" when he picked up the outlet pass off a defensive board, zipped the ball down court to a running Bobby Hunter, & the Pipes didn't have anybody back to prevent the leak out.

I meant to get on here in the beginning of the season but things have been hectic with the work schedule. And you're probably right, I shouldn't over exagerate the talent level of their squad because it is no better than any of the powers in the conference. That being said, it DEFINITELY isn't worse. Clute, Thrasher, Carroll, Hipp...These are all guys who can definitely contend with the front lines of any team in the conference and clearly displayed that Saturday against a highly regarded Bethel team.

Both Banick and Laugen are good heady point guards who don't lose the ball much. A fit could also be defined by pressure that doesn't allow an offense to get set up or a defense that makes a player or entire team do uncharacteristic things. A perfect example is the defense Carroll put on Madson. He ended up with 27 points but was clearly not playing his game. They were jawing the whole game and it was clearly getting to the veteran leader for the Royals. The majority of his points came on quick kickouts on rebounds and on free throws. Madson was getting a "fit".

"But with Hamline's style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  ."

This was definitely the case in the Bethel game as well. I think all of Otterson's points were off transition pushes(from Laugen) for early jumpers that he knocked down. That kid can flat out shoot. On a team like that, assists don't necessarily reflect a great performance because you are always going to have guys knocking down tough shots. All you have to do is it the ball to Moberg he's bound to get you a couple, he's a stud. I unfortunately didn't get to see Banick's performance but he didn't score at all. I think I saw someone say he would have 20 points on here. Not the a point guard needs to score but like I said before, any time you get a player to do uncharacteristic things, it will be to your advantage.

[hoops10101010]

AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left.

I wouldn't say this brand of basketball is new to the conference.  Over the years various teams have gone this way depending on their personnell.

Who has SMU broken down?  This also assumes SMU and Hamline will be ABLE to run up and down all night. Expect to see GAC and UST slow down the tempo and make their opponents play defense and try to play halfcourt ball.

Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them.

talent vs. bigger stronger is the crux of this argument.   and also keep in mind that the score doesn't tell the whole story.  UST was a in a little funk at SMU, they missed easy passes and rebounds that normally they would have made.

Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

The one man argument, though in jest is pretty important.  I would be careful saying Brink is just one man.  A team with a strong on the court leader can really do well. (Sean Sweeny, Doug Espenson come to mind)

AS- The brand of basketball may not be new to the conference, the person coaching it definitely is though. What system has tried this system that is backed by a coach that has consistently gone deep into the national tournament? Gustavus and UST are the only two teams to experience any success in the big dance in recent history and they both play a slow controlled style of ball.

Next, possibly I shouldn't say broke them down but contended with two teams that have proven to be very highly touted in the conference. UST just be WINONA STATE. A team that beat SMU by about 60 points. Not saying that it should have been that lopsided a victory but they shouldn't have had any problems with them if the numbers serve us correctly(which they usually don't )

I will go back to this time and time again but is it possible that SMU had UST doing uncharacteristic things which hindered them from playing the type of ball they were comfortable with? I wasn't at the game and it sounds like you have a pretty good feel for the game or were possibly there. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure I would draw many comparisons to Sean Sweeney and Brady Brink. Where I do think Sean was the heart and sole of that 05-06 Tommie team, he had some guys to fall back on. Schnettler, Ike, Keating...these were possibly the 3 of the best players in the conference last year not to mention Joe Shimek. I think the load on Brink's shoulders is a little bit greater than it was for Sweeney on that team. Your point is well taken that with a strong leader a team can do wonders, but a 5 person team with a great leader against a 12 person team with a very good leader may be outmatched in the wear and tear of the MIAC season.

[Willy Wonka]

Hoops - Where can I get some of that stuff you've been smoking?

[BETHEL34]

I was at the BU/Hamline game and HOOPS1010, a little biased are we??
Sure, Hamline played a really good game and they never gave up when a couple times in the second half they could have just folded over.  But to say that Clute, Thrasher, Carrol, and Hipp can go up against anybody else's front line in the MIAC is a little brash.  Sure they played well Sat night on the offense of side, but they were going up against one of the worst MIAC defenses right now...yes let me say that again, right now Bethel's defense non existent.  Will it stay this way??  No, again, with Jeff Reck out, you have freshmen in Matt Johnson guarding Clute pretty much the whole game.  And I am sorry but Matt Johnson is a 6'6" skinning, not athletic (played post his whole Career in High School), post player that had to be asked to guard Clute on the perimeter because of Recks injury.  He can not and should not ever guard anybody that plays the perimeter (right now anyway).  Sure, Clute had a great game, but you put Matt Johnson on any scoring forward in this league and they are going to score 30 pts.  Clute could drive anytime he wanted and BU's help D was non existent.

Now, two key pieces to Bethels Season struggles up to this point in my point of view.  First key issue is that right now they don't have that key Defense of Stopper that they have had in the past 6 years.  They are really missing that Travis Jones/Steve Strom type defense of stopper.  They don't have anyone that can just shut down a hot hand at any given moment like Jones and Stromile could.  As good as Otterson has been on O this year, he is the one that needs to focus on his defense and become that show stopper that Bethel needs.  If he can't become this for Bethel this year...I could see it being another 3rd or 4th finish with a 2nd round loss in the playoffs again this year unless they score 100 a game.  Now, the second Key that I "KNOW" will get better as the year goes on is their overall team defense.  With Westy and Perrel, both great defense of minds, this team will come around and start trusting each other on D.  At times their Offense was looking pretty good and they were playing pretty well together, but it never looked that way on D.  Too many wide open shots, and I mean wide open shots for Hamline.  Their was no help side and if someone did help, they were about 1 or 2 seconds late so the driver could kick it out for a wide open 3 or they would continue for a layup.  The D by Bethel will improve and once it does, I believe we will all start seeing the Bethel team we thought we would see this year.  There are just so many new pieces that it is taking time on the Defense of side for the guys to Gel and learn what it takes to play defense for 35secs at the College level. 

A perfect example is the defense Carroll put on Madson. He ended up with 27 points but was clearly not playing his game. They were jawing the whole game and it was clearly getting to the veteran leader for the Royals. The majority of his points came on quick kickouts on rebounds and on free throws. Madson was getting a "fit".

"But with Hamline’s style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  ."

This was definitely the case in the Bethel game as well. I think all of Otterson's points were off transition pushes(from Laugen) for early jumpers that he knocked down. That kid can flat out shoot. On a team like that, assists don't necessarily reflect a great performance because you are always going to have guys knocking down tough shots. All you have to do is it the ball to Moberg he's bound to get you a couple, he's a stud. I unfortunately didn't get to see Banick's performance but he didn't score at all. I think I saw someone say he would have 20 points on here. Not the a point guard needs to score but like I said before, any time you get a player to do uncharacteristic things, it will be to your advantage.

HOOPS10 – you have got to be kidding me.  If you think that Carroll was getting into Timmy's head and Timmy wasn't playing his game, then you don't know what you are talking about.  He had two 3's in the first half that come from kick outs from BU getting a couple off of rebounds and that was pretty much it.  All the rest came off of Timmy creating for himself or moving without the ball and getting open for a shot.  How can you say he was clearly getting to the veteran leader when he shoots 8-15 for 27pts and gets to the line 8 times...you need to open your eyes next time you are at a game.  He hit a 3 to go up 81-80, and then when down by 2, under 30 secs to go, he made a great move and just was a little hard on a great looking bank shot from about 12ft.  Carroll was talking crap the whole game and did nothing to slow Timmy down. 

Laugen had at least 3 or 4 great moves to get in the lane to set up easy buckets for Moberg and Matt Johnson or kick outs for Otterson.  He had some pretty good presure to deal with in the full court, and struggled with it at times, but in the half court Laugen had his way for the most part. 

Moberg came out pretty weak in that first half but played with some passion in the second half and pretty much had his way when ever he got the ball.  Bethel needs him to play that way for both halves and demand the ball.  But, players are still learning their roles and they will get this figured out.  And when they do, they will be the team we all expected them to be.  The season is a marathon and GAC tonight is where it starts. 

[MiacLostProphet]

Drake.  Why do you have to be piper bashing.  2-0 is 2-0.  They have won some good games.  They look like a solid playoff team.  And I believe you have said the weight room comment about Anderson and Johansen twice now.  Anderson isn't exactly the skinniest kid, and as for Johansen, couldn't almost EVERY player in the league use some more weight room training?

Banick had ZERO points, Laugen had 7.....and by definition:  That is a "fit"

Bethel will be fine, they lost 1 conference game.  No team goes undefeated, and Past miac champs lost some games.  1 game in a marathon of a season.

Hoops, keep ringing the good news! the Pipes are tied for first place in the conference!

Wonka, i think hoops got it down in St. Peter from a Gustie???  I know a guy who knows a guy down there, you should drop by his place after the game.