MBB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Cool story -- not relevant to D-III.

It's the same scenario at other rigorous academic schools, except those schools offer a much wider range of majors and degree programs.

Well you would be right, EXCEPT there was a D3 National Basketball Player of the Year who played at, if I recall, MIT recently.

Coaches can choose to recruit whoever and however they want. Unfortunately, too many choose to assume, like you and Ryan, that there aren't enough really talented athletes to make their program great. If you just want kids who attend the school to play basketball, fine - you'll just turn into CalTech (historically bad)... when in fact the opposite end of the spectrum (historically good) is possible.

There was indeed one, 13 years ago. And?

It's just math and common sense -- if you offer more majors you're going to have a wider pool of student-athletes to recruit.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You do have to look at the majors for those athletes, though.  You don't see a ton of lab heavy degrees on athletic rosters.

MIT made the Final Four playing literally six guys, with no margin of error.  I'm not saying a team full of engineers can't compete, but I don't think the pool is large enough to be a perennial national power.  Those kinds of programs require a buy in from athletes that's REALLY hard to do with such a rigorous academic schedule.  You don't just need one kid willing to do it, you need four every year.

It's not a knock or a detraction; it's just reality.

I interviewed John Grotberg earlier this year.  He is the third all-time career scorer in d3, and went to Grinnell, which is no slouch academically.  He was pre-med to start, but he had to switch to an easier related degree in order to devote the time necessary to play basketball.  He's a doctor now, but he had to do additional prep before med school to make up for what he couldn't manage as an undergrad.

You can definitely get the best basketball playing kids who can hack it academically at RHIT or MIT or CalTech, and those teams would be very, very good - but you have to keep them playing and keep recruiting every year to build a program.

Its much more likely that specialized schools like MIT or RHIT or CalTech get to a level where they're regularly competitive in conference.  That's a real success.

[Next Man Up]

Appears Chris Hamilton, an assistant at my alma mater Nebraska Wesleyan, will become the next head coach at Franklin.
Hamilton has been at NWU for the last four years. Prior to that he was an assistant at Randolph-Macon.

And indeed, Chris Hamilton has been named as the new head coach at Franklin.

[Enginerd]

You do have to look at the majors for those athletes, though.  You don't see a ton of lab heavy degrees on athletic rosters.

MIT made the Final Four playing literally six guys, with no margin of error.  I'm not saying a team full of engineers can't compete, but I don't think the pool is large enough to be a perennial national power.  Those kinds of programs require a buy in from athletes that's REALLY hard to do with such a rigorous academic schedule.  You don't just need one kid willing to do it, you need four every year.

It's not a knock or a detraction; it's just reality.

I interviewed John Grotberg earlier this year.  He is the third all-time career scorer in d3, and went to Grinnell, which is no slouch academically.  He was pre-med to start, but he had to switch to an easier related degree in order to devote the time necessary to play basketball.  He's a doctor now, but he had to do additional prep before med school to make up for what he couldn't manage as an undergrad.

You can definitely get the best basketball playing kids who can hack it academically at RHIT or MIT or CalTech, and those teams would be very, very good - but you have to keep them playing and keep recruiting every year to build a program.

Its much more likely that specialized schools like MIT or RHIT or CalTech get to a level where they're regularly competitive in conference.  That's a real success.

Ryan, you also need to factor in the financial aid aspect. I'm not suggesting anyone is cheating at all. Endowments differ. Philosophies differ. I've heard crazy stories about D3 coaches googling potential recruit's addresses to try to see where they live and estimate whether their family would be able to afford a $70,000 per year tuition bill before they even bother to try to recruit them! How's that for evaluating a recruit - by their parents' net worth?!
RHIT's financial aid has always been anemic - I sat beside a (then) current RHIT parent when they played Hope a few years ago and they were paying $45,000 per year AFTER financial aid! Schools like CalTech, RHIT, and MIT don't need to give great financial aid to make their class #'s every year - so in many cases they just don't. I doubt they care very much whether it hurts their ability to attract great athletes as long as they are getting the right class along with test scores and diversity. The coaches scrounge together whatever talent they can with the breathtaking obstacles of cost and the difficult academics and just do the best they can.

Someone, I think Jester probably, mentioned that RHIT has been able to bring in Division I-level kids on the women's side and that is certainly testament to recruiting - but the problem with that is that there's probably a reason kids turn down Division I offers for D-III. Their desire/commitment to basketball probably isn't on a par with lesser-talented kids at other schools - which turns out to be a wash.

I agree with you a thousand percent, Ryan. The STEM schools probably ought to be content with being competitive in their respective leagues and then once every decade they'll manage to have 6-8 great kids on campus all at the same time and can dream a little bigger.

Wabash made the Final Four this year. DePauw has been there in the past. With good command of the X's and O's and the ability to identify your sweet-spot and recruit the right kids, there is a possibility you can win big at DePauw, and I think Loyd ultimately will. At RHIT, he could have stayed there for another 20 years and eclipsed Coach Shaw's record for wins, won 4 or 5 HCAC titles, and played in as many NCAA Tournaments, with a 1st or 2nd round exit in each one, and been enshrined in the school's Hall of Fame. He's probably an ambitious guy and saw an opportunity to coach at a highly-respected school (if not quite at the same level as RHIT or his own alma mater U Chicago) where he could dream as big as he wants to. I'm a RHIT lifer/homer, whatever you want to call it - but I don't think it was a lateral move at all. He just wants to win and he took a job at a great school where he can...and will.

[Pat Coleman]

I agree that the ceiling is higher at DePauw/in the NCAC.

[Gregory Sager]

Someone, I think Jester probably, mentioned that RHIT has been able to bring in Division I-level kids on the women's side and that is certainly testament to recruiting - but the problem with that is that there's probably a reason kids turn down Division I offers for D-III. Their desire/commitment to basketball probably isn't on a par with lesser-talented kids at other schools - which turns out to be a wash.

Be careful about painting D1 turn-downs and D1 transfers with too broad a brush. Yes, some of them don't want the full-time job of being a scholarship athlete at a D1 school to get in the way of their education and/or their college experience. But some of them transfer out to a D3 school because they simply aren't getting the playing time that they desire -- and, often, the D1 turn-downs are prescient enough to realize that they'd wind up in the same end-of-the-bench boat if they opted to sign that letter of intent. Some of the transfers grow disillusioned with the D1 lifestyle (which often involves attending a massive university where, unless you're playing football or men's basketball, you're probably just as unknown as everybody else even if you're a scholie athlete) more than the D1 workload and want the intimacy and connection of a D3 college -- and, again, sometimes a high-school senior is aware enough of this syndrome to just plain skip the D1 experience altogether. And since D1s tend to recruit nationally far more often than do D3s, it's often a craving to be closer to home that drives a student-athlete to turn down, or transfer from, a D1 school in favor of a D3 school.

Student-athletes who pick D3 over D1 don't all fit into one neat little package when it comes to motivation, or lack thereof.

[WUPHF]

You do have to look at the majors for those athletes, though.  You don't see a ton of lab heavy degrees on athletic rosters.

MIT made the Final Four playing literally six guys, with no margin of error. 

I agree with what you are saying, but a few thoughts.

First, it is interesting that Rose-Hulman has yet to add a business or social science degree.  Engineering schools lose a lot of students, but maybe Rose bucks that trend and does not need other options.  Most polytechnic schools offer history, psychology and other degrees.

Notably, many of the students on the roster at Rose and MIT are in the non-lab heavy Computer Science major.  More manageable than say Mechanical Engineering, but still...

[Jester1390]

Just want to point out still no official statement on Rose head coach leaving just his name taken off the website.  Looks like a acrimonious split to me.  Now the question is who takes over maybe the womans coach slides over he has coached men in the past and is going through issues with women not wanting to play for him.

[Pat Coleman]

Many, many schools do not make an announcement when their coach leaves. Many schools also do not make an announcement when they let a coach go.

[Jester1390]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware.

We deal with dozens of coaching changes every year. I assure you, that almost never happens.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware.

We deal with dozens of coaching changes every year. I assure you, that almost never happens.

Hmmm - almost never happens may be a stretch.  I agree it's not like you are going to see something akin to what gets posted when a coach retires (althought Alma comes close), but it is not uncommon for their to be at least a press release with some level of thanks to the coach.  Given what teams and conferences I follow, I immediately looked at these 3 coaching departures this year; Alma, NCC, and North Park. While only Alma has a quote from the departing coach, they do all have thanks from the ADs.  Seems strange that RH has nothing that I can find even annoucing the coach has left.

Alma:  https://www.almascots.com/sports/mbkb/2021-22/releases/20220422nxzhgh
NCC:   https://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2022/3/23/coaching-change-announced-for-mens-basketball.aspx
North Park:   https://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2022/3/2/slyder-resigns-as-head-coach-of-npu-mens-basketball.aspx

[Pat Coleman]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware.

We deal with dozens of coaching changes every year. I assure you, that almost never happens.

Hmmm - almost never happens may be a stretch.  I agree it's not like you are going to see something akin to what gets posted when a coach retires (althought Alma comes close), but it is not uncommon for their to be at least a press release with some level of thanks to the coach.  Given what teams and conferences I follow, I immediately looked at these 3 coaching departures this year; Alma, NCC, and North Park. While only Alma has a quote from the departing coach, they do all have thanks from the ADs.  Seems strange that RH has nothing that I can find even annoucing the coach has left.

Alma:  https://www.almascots.com/sports/mbkb/2021-22/releases/20220422nxzhgh
NCC:   https://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2022/3/23/coaching-change-announced-for-mens-basketball.aspx
North Park:   https://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2022/3/2/slyder-resigns-as-head-coach-of-npu-mens-basketball.aspx

But on the opposite side, there are so, so many that do not announce or even acknowledge a coach's departure.

[Next Man Up]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware.

We deal with dozens of coaching changes every year. I assure you, that almost never happens.

Hmmm - almost never happens may be a stretch.  I agree it's not like you are going to see something akin to what gets posted when a coach retires (althought Alma comes close), but it is not uncommon for their to be at least a press release with some level of thanks to the coach.  Given what teams and conferences I follow, I immediately looked at these 3 coaching departures this year; Alma, NCC, and North Park. While only Alma has a quote from the departing coach, they do all have thanks from the ADs.  Seems strange that RH has nothing that I can find even annoucing the coach has left.

Alma:  https://www.almascots.com/sports/mbkb/2021-22/releases/20220422nxzhgh
NCC:   https://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2022/3/23/coaching-change-announced-for-mens-basketball.aspx
North Park:   https://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2022/3/2/slyder-resigns-as-head-coach-of-npu-mens-basketball.aspx

But on the opposite side, there are so, so many that do not announce or even acknowledge a coach's departure.

I wonder what the correlation is between coaches who are fired vs those who voluntarily resign.
It seems logical that if a coach is fired, a somewhat acrimonious relationship would exist wherein the administration would be a lot less inclined to thank or even acknowledge the departing coach.
Conversely, a successful coach with a good relationship with his superiors would be far more likely to receive a "thank you for your service," or, at minimum, some type of acknowledgment of his service/record.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Disagree. If it's a good relationship. They make some sort of announcement thanking them for their contributions. And on the other end the coach says he appreciates his time at said school but is looking forward to this new challenge or opportunity.  Plus I know the chatter he was leaving started only 2 weeks before he left.  Isn't lie he was there just for 2 years. He was along time coach there. It happens he found a better fit for him and the school was caught unaware.

We deal with dozens of coaching changes every year. I assure you, that almost never happens.

Hmmm - almost never happens may be a stretch.  I agree it's not like you are going to see something akin to what gets posted when a coach retires (althought Alma comes close), but it is not uncommon for their to be at least a press release with some level of thanks to the coach.  Given what teams and conferences I follow, I immediately looked at these 3 coaching departures this year; Alma, NCC, and North Park. While only Alma has a quote from the departing coach, they do all have thanks from the ADs.  Seems strange that RH has nothing that I can find even annoucing the coach has left.

Alma:  https://www.almascots.com/sports/mbkb/2021-22/releases/20220422nxzhgh
NCC:   https://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2022/3/23/coaching-change-announced-for-mens-basketball.aspx
North Park:   https://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2022/3/2/slyder-resigns-as-head-coach-of-npu-mens-basketball.aspx

But on the opposite side, there are so, so many that do not announce or even acknowledge a coach's departure.

I wonder what the correlation is between coaches who are fired vs those who voluntarily resign.
It seems logical that if a coach is fired, a somewhat acrimonious relationship would exist wherein the administration would be a lot less inclined to thank or even acknowledge the departing coach.
Conversely, a successful coach with a good relationship with his superiors would be far more likely to receive a "thank you for your service," or, at minimum, some type of acknowledgment of his service/record.

In some cases, a voluntary resignation is just a coach firing a school.  I'm sure it all depends on the relationship.