MBB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[Darryl Nester]

-If TU wins and HC loses, TU is the 2, HC is the 3, DC the 4, MC the 5

No.
If TU wins and HC loses and DC wins:  HC is 2, TU is 3,  DC is 4, MC is 5.
If TU wins and HC loses and DC loses:  TU is 2, HC is 3, DC is 4, MC is 5.

Transy wins the 2-way tie, but Hanover wins the 3-way tie.

I think that in the case of a three-way tie, when counting the number of wins vs. the other teams in the group, the WEAKEST team is dropped (and then the tie-breaking procedure restarts) -- rather than arranging the teams in order from most to least wins.  I don't remember if the HCAC web site supplied this detail when the tie-breaker procedure was listed there; I believe that this question came up on this board in a previous season (but I don't have the energy or time to scan the archives to go looking for that earlier conversation -- someone else, please feel free to do so).

That would mean that in a three-way tie between HC, TU, and DC:
HC would be 3-1 against DC and TU
TU would be 2-2 against HC and DC
DC would be 1-3 against HC and TU.

DC would be dropped to the #4 seed, and then the tie-breaking procedure would restart for HC/TU.  In this scenario, HC would have been swept by AU, while TU split with them, so TU gets the #2 seed.

Of course, depending on Saturday's results, we may find out that my recollection/interpretation of that tie-breaker rule is wrong.

[Darryl Nester]

I found the earlier discussion, from February 2007.  Included is a quote from the tie-breaker explanation at the HCAC Web site (as it appeared at that time).

This still does not provide an authoritative answer to the question, since most of the statements here were mine.  (I had thought that there were more people involved in the discussion back then.)

Here is the tie-breaker, taken directly from the HCAC web site (misspellings and all):

HCAC standings are established by regular season will determine seeding positions
When ties in the final regular season standings occur the following steps will be used to break these ties.

• Head-to-head competition
• Competition against rank/order of regular season standings
• If these two steps do not break the tie than a coin toss will be used
• 
  
  • If the final standings have more than one tie then lower ties are resolved first
  • If there are multiple ties for a position, the tiebreaker process must start from the beginning each time a team is eliminated from teh tie
  • If there are more than two teams in an unbreakable tie than a lottery will be used to determine the seed positions

Here's the reasoning, as I see it, and as I implemented it in my program. I've highlighted (in boldface) a crucial interpretation of the rules which, if incorrect, would lead to a slight change in final standings ....

For any scenario ending with MSJ, DC, and HC in a three-way tie for 4th place, we first do head-to-head competition, meaning (as I interpret it) we count how many wins each team has within that group.

• DC went 3-1 (1-1 vs. MSJ, 2-0 vs. HC)
• HC went 2-2 (2-0 vs. MSJ, 0-2 vs. DC)
• MSJ went 1-3 (1-1 vs. DC, 0-2 vs. HC)

Here is where I made a crucial interpretation of the rules which others might read differently:  Taking the requirements that

• "... lower ties are resolved first," and
• "If there are multiple ties for a position, the tiebreaker process must start from the beginning each time a team is eliminated from the tie,"

I interpreted that in a situation like this, we drop the lower team (MSJ), rather than raising the higher team (DC), and then we start over. Therefore, MSJ drops to 6th place, and we now must break the tie between DC and HC.  In this case, the result is the same either way: DC takes 4th place by virtue of their sweep of HC.

There are other scenarios that lead to FC, MSJ, and HC in a three-way tie for 4th.  In that case:

• FC went 3-1 (1-1 vs. MSJ, 2-0 vs. HC)
• HC went 2-2 (2-0 vs. MSJ, 0-2 vs. FC)
• MSJ went 1-3 (1-1 vs. FC, 0-2 vs. HC)

Everything proceeds as before: MSJ drops to 6th, then we compare FC and HC head-to-head, and FC takes 4th place because of their sweep over HC.  (Once again, my interpretation of the rules does not affect the outcome here.)

In the event of a three-way tie among MSJ/TU/HC or MC/TU/HC, my interpretation makes a difference.  Take the latter tie, for example. Within this group:

• TU went 2-2 (1-1 vs. MC, 1-1 vs. HC)
• HC went 3-1 (2-0 vs. MC, 1-1 vs. TU)
• MC went 1-3 (1-1 vs. TU, 0-2 vs. HC)

By my application of the tie-breaker, we drop MC, then start over.  HC and TU split the series, so head-to-head doesn't break the tie. Now we move on to "Competition against rank/order of regular season standings," which (as I understand it) means, compare each team in the tie group to the other teams, from the top of the standings down.  The teams at the top of the standings would include (in some order) FC, BU, and DC;  both TU and HC would be even against BU, but HC was swept by both FC and DC, while TU would have split against both. With a different interpretation of the tie-breaker, we could instead drop MC and raise HC (thus giving HC the #4 seed). 

[Jackets Backer]

I thought I had this figured out, but after reading the last four or five posts I'm even more confused with how the 2-3-4 seeds are going to play out. 

The Jackets have to win three next week and that's all I'm going to worry about.

[cave2bens]

I thought I had this figured out, but after reading the last four or five posts I'm even more confused with how the 2-3-4 seeds are going to play out. 

The Jackets have to win three next week and that's all I'm going to worry about.

That last profundity demystifies the conundrum for all six participants.  Win three then "wait and see" or lose and concentrate on track and baseball practice.  Well done, JF! 

[zander]

Yeah, the problem with both AU and DC getting an at large bid is that they are both currently behind at least 2 other Pool C teams in the regional rankings (and those two are from the same conference).

I just don't see how either of them even get "on the board" with those rankings.

I'm always at a loss at how the "at-large" bids are chosen, but does the fact that AU has been consistently ranked in the top 25 nationally all year give them a spot or not necessarily? Is there a limit to how many team from one region can be chosen?

[BUBeaverFan]

If you go over to the men's basketball multi-region threads you can find discussions on Pool B and Pool C criteria.  It doesn't always explain it perfectly but there several great posters ove there who have the selection process down pretty well.

[Buzz]

Alright, time for the final picks of the regular season. There is a part of me that wants to sit back and wait to see who JacketsBacker takes and just duplicate those to preserve my 1 pick lead, but that's no way to win a title! So I'm going for it right now...and man its a hard four games to pick too.

Defiance (19-5, 10-5) at Franklin (8-16, 6-9) - This seems to be a good matchup for Defiance, as DC cruised against Franklin at home. Defiance has also played well at Franklin in recent history against much better Grizzly teams than this young one. I am taking DC to reach its 2nd 20-win season of its 19-year D3 era.

Anderson (21-3, 12-2) at Hanover (14-9, 11-4) - Man, we've been talking about this game for weeks and all indicators point to Hanover on its home court, healthy, winners of 8 straight, needing a win to seal the No. 2 seed and the fact that the Panthers only lost by 4 AT Anderson despite only shooting 42%. But...and I'm gonna get backlash for saying this, I almost feel Hanover is a tad overhyped at this point and I think the Ravens might be tired of hearing about it and want to send a message Saturday and enter the HCAC Tourney with a statement win...I'm taking Anderson.

Rose-Hulman (7-17, 3-12) at Mt. St. Joseph (9-14, 4-11) - Nothing on the line here. No postseason implications...just pride. And so I'll side with Michael Romes ending his outstanding MSJ career on a high note. Shame he was never on a better team, because he's one of the best scorers - if not THE best scorer in the HCAC these last four years.

Manchester (15-9, 9-6) at Transylvania (14-10, 10-5) - This is another absolute toss up in my eyes. It has been covered pretty well how important this game is for Transy, plus they are at home. Manchester did win the first go-around but shot 52% and still only edged out the Pioneers by four. This time around, I'll go with Transylvania.

What say you JacketsBacker???

[Gregory Sager]

If you go over to the men's basketball multi-region threads you can find discussions on Pool B and Pool C criteria.  It doesn't always explain it perfectly but there several great posters ove there who have the selection process down pretty well.

True, but if I was Zander I would start with this page from the d3hoops.com FAQ section:

http://www.d3hoops.com/faq.php?question=45

(The 2009-10 criteria are essentially the same as last year's criteria.)

[Jackets Backer]

Jackets Backers says the title is mine.

DC
Hanover
MSJ
Manchester

[dc_star]

DC
Hanover
Rose-Hulman
Transylvania

[Darryl Nester]

AU vs. HC proved to be a battle worthy of the hype -- HC wins in OT, 78-75.
MSJ beat RHIT, 69-53.

Still in progress: With 9.5 minutes to go, DC up by 23 over FC.  Transy and Manchester are in a tight one--tied with 1.5 minutes to go.

Manchester wins 65-64.  That should give DC the #3 seed regardless of the DC/FC outcome (although with a 31-point lead and less than 6 minutes to go, I think we can safely give that win to DC).  MC earns the #4 seed, and TU slips to #5.

[Jackets Backer]

Thank you JT Hooks. Jackets Backer takes down Buzz on the final day of buckets in the HCAC pickem in a comeback for the ages. Plus Manchester's W gives DC the three seed and Franklin again on Tuesday night at DC and Transy now has to go to Manchester. Jeez, what a bad day for the Pioneers. Had a chance to end up the 2 and at very worst with win hosting Franklin on Tuesday. Instead they have to go to Manchester, who they've lost to twice, on Tuesday evening and then would have Anderson on Friday if they survive.

[Buzz]

Haha, whatta day of hoops in the HCAC and congrats to JB for a clutch showing in pickem to win the title.

Here is the HCAC Tourney picture...

Tuesday, Feb. 23
#5 Transylvania at #4 Manchester - 7:30 pm
#6 Franklin at #3 Defiance - 8:00 pm

Both high seeds swept the regular season, with MC winning two nail-biters over Transy and DC smoking Franklin twice.

Friday, Feb. 26 (at Anderson)
#2 Hanover vs #3 DC/#6 FC - 6:00 pm
#1 Anderson vs #4 MC/#5 TU - 8:00 pm

Hanover swept DC, split with FC....Anderson swept MC, split with TU.

Saturday, Feb. 27 (at Anderson)
HCAC Championship - 7:00 pm

[dc_has_been]

Very nice day indeed!  I was happy with DC being a 3 or a 4, I just wanted them to finish the regular season with a W. 
Now it's time for the HCAC tournament.  I really hope DC doesn't go into Tuesday's game over confident.  Regardless of their past two meetings against Franklin this season, anything can happen.  DC needs to play hard and keep in the groove to if they want to move to the semi's. 
Well put by Jackets Backer!  Transy put themselves in a very difficult spot with losing today.  Going from what could have been hosting a game to now traveling to Manchester who has swept them this season. 
In regards to anyone getting an at large bid to the tournament, I don't see it happening for either DC or Anderson.  DC would have 6 losses if they lose in the HCAC tourney and that just doesn't cut it.  Anderson, maybe if they make it to the finals, but dropping two of the last three and not having the toughest SOS (385 as of 2/14/10) may not give them consideration.  I'm curious to see if DC jumps them in the regional rankings too.  DC's SOS was 129, but their in region opponents didn't fair well today so that may drop some.

[zander]

Congrats to Hanover for playing a great game of basketball to defeat AU on Sat.
It was a total team effort and hopefully will lead them to a conference championship this weekend-
GO PANTHERS!