2012 Division III NCAA Tournament

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

David - that announcement won't come until at least Monday. They are taking a look at who the teams are in the Final Four and then going from there with their selections. They also have to look at who might or might not be able to make it to Salem.

The NABC has a committee set-up to select these players and the NABC is paying for all of it. We chatted with Coach Mike McGrath a few weeks back on Hoopsville. You can find that show here: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5097717 or http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5102088

[Gregory Sager]

D3 tourney history of the 2010 Final Four participants

team	apps	first app	E8s	F4s	titles	W-L (.pct)
Williams	11	1994	5	5	1	29-9 (.763)
Guilford	4	2007	3	2	0	11-3 (.786)
UW-Stevens Point	9	1997	5	3	2	23-6 (.793)
Randolph-Macon	10	1990	1	1	0	9-9 (.500)

[THE U - TD]

Wow! I make some observations of the UTD UWSP game about

-- how tight it was,
-- how #5 UWSP before 2375 fans (2300 for UWSP and 75 for UT-Dallas?) could not put away #19 UTD,
-- that UTD's 1-3-1 zone gave UWSP problems
-- that UTD was playing without its best player (IMHO) Brandon Green and another solid senior staring forward Jimmy Witten
-- and that I asked for quantification of home court advantage and that one should probably consider that home court advantage may for UWSP may have been 6 points when one considers the plane flight and travel for UTD and the overwhelming crowd disparity in favor of UWSP.  UTD had not played before 2300 fans this season. (UTDallas' 64-72 loss at D1 UT-Arlington was only played before 632 fans on Jan 3rd.)

I commented that 6 points makes that a different game if a team is holding off a team versus the lead changing hands.  UWSP hit their 7-8 FT's down the stretch.  The "foul-fest" may not occur if the lead is changing hands.

The UWSP game write-up highlighted the tightness of the game and the challenges that the Pointers faced and met against the Comets.  From 13:13 to the end of the game, the UWSP margin was 5-4-7-6-4-6-5-3-5 until the "foul-fest" that the article mentions in the last 1:43.

I got an opinion by Titan Q and then got 7 smites over the day from fans who did not like what I said, but did not have the vocabulary or the analytical skills to discuss the points that I made.

UWSP web page on the Pointer-Comet game

The fans in the midwest may give lip-service to the travel disparities that plague the teams outside the Illinois-Wisconsin cocoon at tournament time, but travel is huge.  (I hope that Whitworth had a chance to adjust to its 3PM PST game with EMU.  The Pirates had not had a 3pm PST tip-off since January 3rd.)

I never expected that response (the smiting and absence of a cogent response) that I received on the WIAC boards.

If a team has the athletes that UTD has and more depth than that "beat-up" Comet team did last night, then that game video may be quite instructive.  

UTD played a great game and Davis had a career game to make it so. If Wash U had won, it would have been a shorter trip for the Comets and longer for the Pointers. It would have only been about 500 fans to 30 there. Blame the NCAA politics, but not the 2300 Point fans for trying to exhort their team to a win. UTD had less than 350 fans a game see them play at home during this year on average, they would have been out numbered no matter where they played. Injuries are also part of the game. UWSP's Pete Rortvedt was not nearly the player he was early in his career after an injury filled junior season that carried over into his senior season as well.  UTD had no depth all season long and Witten's loss definitely hurt, but they had no one to replace him because they only played 6 players basically after Greene went down. Superb athletes, yes, team, nope

I would say UTD had one superb athlete this season. Curtis Davis.  UTD is easily one of the least athletic teams in the ASC.

Last season UTD went to the Elite 8... where they were 3 seconds and an incredible shot by Clay Henson away from the Final Four.  They lost 2 huge starters in PG Temaine Wright and G Ernie Lowery.  This season the Comets lost Brandon Greene, a senior starting in his 3rd straight season, in December. Brandon is a great scorer and defensive lockdown.  After Losing to Division I UT Arlington by 8 in a very close game, they won 17 of their next 18. They were down big against Mary Hardin Baylor in their Home Gym in the conference championship game and managed to get it down to 2 and had several chances to take the lead but couldn't get over the hump.  With about 2 minutes to go, down 4, Jimmy Witten drove and was about to score but went down in pain with a Torn ACL.  UMHB went and converted it into a six point lead as UTD stopped for half a second watching their teammate go down.  Jimmy Witten was also in his 3rd consecutive year of starting and was a huge inside presence for the Comets as well as emotional leader.  That leaves ONE starter from the 2009 Elite 8 team.  UTD managed to rebound and win at home against a very good Wheaton team to return to the Sweet 16 for the 2nd straight season!  In the Wheaton game, the last remaining starter from the 2009 team, Jordan Eppink, got in foul trouble and was only able to play 23 minutes.  I believe the reason UTD won the game is because post Garrett Hillen came off the bench and played great in a HUGE 17 minutes.  The Comets traveled to Stevens Point to a very partisan crowd and got behind early but managed to stay in the game and had chances in the second half to tie the game up. I must give credit to Stevens Point for having GREAT fans that aren't seen at the Division III level down south.

I guess I just don't understand how you don't think this was a good team.  How many teams do you know that would have depth after losing 2 3rd year starters in one season... and still manage to band together and have the success that UTD had this season.  I'm not taking credit away from Stevens Point as they are a great team and the best team UTD played all season bar none,  but UTD hung with them on their home court 600 miles from Texas, after losing 2 huge starters down the stretch, plus the 2 graduates from 2009 elite 8 team. 

[Pat Coleman]

Nobody thinks this isn't a good team.

[frodotwo]

Wow! I make some observations of the UTD UWSP game about

-- how tight it was,
-- how #5 UWSP before 2375 fans (2300 for UWSP and 75 for UT-Dallas?) could not put away #19 UTD,
-- that UTD's 1-3-1 zone gave UWSP problems
-- that UTD was playing without its best player (IMHO) Brandon Green and another solid senior staring forward Jimmy Witten
-- and that I asked for quantification of home court advantage and that one should probably consider that home court advantage may for UWSP may have been 6 points when one considers the plane flight and travel for UTD and the overwhelming crowd disparity in favor of UWSP.  UTD had not played before 2300 fans this season. (UTDallas' 64-72 loss at D1 UT-Arlington was only played before 632 fans on Jan 3rd.)

I commented that 6 points makes that a different game if a team is holding off a team versus the lead changing hands.  UWSP hit their 7-8 FT's down the stretch.  The "foul-fest" may not occur if the lead is changing hands.

The UWSP game write-up highlighted the tightness of the game and the challenges that the Pointers faced and met against the Comets.  From 13:13 to the end of the game, the UWSP margin was 5-4-7-6-4-6-5-3-5 until the "foul-fest" that the article mentions in the last 1:43.

I got an opinion by Titan Q and then got 7 smites over the day from fans who did not like what I said, but did not have the vocabulary or the analytical skills to discuss the points that I made.

UWSP web page on the Pointer-Comet game

The fans in the midwest may give lip-service to the travel disparities that plague the teams outside the Illinois-Wisconsin cocoon at tournament time, but travel is huge.  (I hope that Whitworth had a chance to adjust to its 3PM PST game with EMU.  The Pirates had not had a 3pm PST tip-off since January 3rd.)

I never expected that response (the smiting and absence of a cogent response) that I received on the WIAC boards.

If a team has the athletes that UTD has and more depth than that "beat-up" Comet team did last night, then that game video may be quite instructive.  

UTD played a great game and Davis had a career game to make it so. If Wash U had won, it would have been a shorter trip for the Comets and longer for the Pointers. It would have only been about 500 fans to 30 there. Blame the NCAA politics, but not the 2300 Point fans for trying to exhort their team to a win. UTD had less than 350 fans a game see them play at home during this year on average, they would have been out numbered no matter where they played. Injuries are also part of the game. UWSP's Pete Rortvedt was not nearly the player he was early in his career after an injury filled junior season that carried over into his senior season as well.  UTD had no depth all season long and Witten's loss definitely hurt, but they had no one to replace him because they only played 6 players basically after Greene went down. Superb athletes, yes, team, nope

I would say UTD had one superb athlete this season. Curtis Davis.  UTD is easily one of the least athletic teams in the ASC.

Last season UTD went to the Elite 8... where they were 3 seconds and an incredible shot by Clay Henson away from the Final Four.  They lost 2 huge starters in PG Temaine Wright and G Ernie Lowery.  This season the Comets lost Brandon Greene, a senior starting in his 3rd straight season, in December. Brandon is a great scorer and defensive lockdown.  After Losing to Division I UT Arlington by 8 in a very close game, they won 17 of their next 18. They were down big against Mary Hardin Baylor in their Home Gym in the conference championship game and managed to get it down to 2 and had several chances to take the lead but couldn't get over the hump.  With about 2 minutes to go, down 4, Jimmy Witten drove and was about to score but went down in pain with a Torn ACL.  UMHB went and converted it into a six point lead as UTD stopped for half a second watching their teammate go down.  Jimmy Witten was also in his 3rd consecutive year of starting and was a huge inside presence for the Comets as well as emotional leader.  That leaves ONE starter from the 2009 Elite 8 team.  UTD managed to rebound and win at home against a very good Wheaton team to return to the Sweet 16 for the 2nd straight season!  In the Wheaton game, the last remaining starter from the 2009 team, Jordan Eppink, got in foul trouble and was only able to play 23 minutes.  I believe the reason UTD won the game is because post Garrett Hillen came off the bench and played great in a HUGE 17 minutes.  The Comets traveled to Stevens Point to a very partisan crowd and got behind early but managed to stay in the game and had chances in the second half to tie the game up. I must give credit to Stevens Point for having GREAT fans that aren't seen at the Division III level down south.

I guess I just don't understand how you don't think this was a good team.  How many teams do you know that would have depth after losing 2 3rd year starters in one season... and still manage to band together and have the success that UTD had this season.  I'm not taking credit away from Stevens Point as they are a great team and the best team UTD played all season bar none,  but UTD hung with them on their home court 600 miles from Texas, after losing 2 huge starters down the stretch, plus the 2 graduates from 2009 elite 8 team. 

UTD is an excellent team, but I believe their weakness was their lack of depth. In order to go deep in the tourney you have to have capable backups and go more than 6 or 7 deep. The injury to Greene made UTD a six man rotation and Witten going down made them a 5 man team. Not enough IMO to make them a final 4 team. UWSP is my"homer" team, but they do go at least 8 deep. 3pt shooting is the biggest wart this team has. UTD was fully capable of winning vs the Pointers, but usually one man can't do it alone and that's what happened in this case

[Hugenerd]

Anyone know where the NABC all-star squads are listed?

[Pat Coleman]

We just got the full list this afternoon:

http://bit.ly/alPHYc

[Hugenerd]

Thanks

[Just Bill]

Interesting that they are going to have the two players from a losing team play on opposing All-Star squads.

[Gregory Sager]

Interesting that they are going to have the two players from a losing team play on opposing All-Star squads.

That has its pluses and minuses. First, a big plus is the fact that you won't have to arrange to bring four extra players to Salem, since they're already there. A second plus is there are clearly deserving seniors who ought to play in the All-Star game who are in the Final Four. Either Guilford's Tyler Sanborn or Williams's Blake Schultz will see his team's season come to an end on Friday night -- and it's hard to imagine holding a senior All-Star game without one or the other.

The minus is that you will end up with freshly-eliminated players suiting up for the senior All-Star game who don't really deserve to be there. For example, the two Randy Mac seniors, Lawrence and Strickland, got DNPs in half of RMC's games this season -- and in the games in which they did see the floor, they averaged about two minutes apiece. And the Sweeney kid from UWSP averaged ten minutes per game and scored 1.7 ppg for the year. Not exactly All-Star numbers.

What confuses me is the way that the people who are putting together the game have split up the potential additions to the rosters. Two seniors from each of the four teams have been slated to join the All-Star rosters should their teams lose on Friday night, and the two seniors per team will be split between the two squads. That runs counter to the structural rationale for the game. The game is set up to be East versus West (East meaning the Northeast, East, Middle Atlantic, and Atlantic regions, and West meaning Great Lakes, South, Midwest, and West regions). That has great potential for being conversational fodder, since the discussion of which regions have better teams and better players is a perennial topic on d3boards.com. An East vs. West senior All-Star game won't necessarily settle those debates, but at the very least it'll certainly fuel them. But with this setup, we're looking at the possiblity of a UWSP player joining the East team, and a Williams player joining the West team. And that just doesn't make sense.

I can see that, this year at least, the setup has to be tweaked somewhat, since the West constituency has three teams in the Final Four (Guilford and Randy Mac from the South Region, UWSP from the West Region), while the East constituency has only one (Williams from the Northeast Region). One of the ODAC teams should be switched over to the East prior to Friday, just to balance it out this year. But I'd rather see that -- even if it meant that Guilford's vastly superior seniors get moved to the East rather than RMC's inferior senior duo -- than see the setup that they have at the moment. It would at least come closer to preserving the true East vs. West nature of the All-Star game.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Gregory - from what I have learned... while the breakdown of players may be titled East vs. West... but the work to fill the rosters wasn't going to be strickly East vs. West or North vs. South. You can see there is a member from Virginia Wesleyan on the West team... and a possible player from UWSP on the East. While the breakdown certainly took on a strong East v West... my conversations make it sound like they are going to mix things around each year.

As for players that don't see much time getting on the roster from losing semi-final teams... I would look at it this way. They were part of a team that got to Salem but maybe they didn't get a chance to really play. This is their reward even if they aren't a star... for being a four-year player at the school that nearly accomplished the ultimate goal of a championship. They would have played in a consolation game and now they are rewarded for their efforts in this game. I know that the committee has also considered Senior-less squads... and that is why the decision of who is playing in the game comes down this week and not weeks prior.

It is also the first year for this... and I am sure things will continue to be tweeked in the future.

[Gregory Sager]

You can see there is a member from Virginia Wesleyan on the West team

... which is as it should be, since the South Region is considered part of the West (along with the Great Lakes, Midwest, and West regions). The West team also has a player from Austin College (South Region).

The South Region -- or much of it, at least -- is traditionally paired with the Great Lakes Region in the tourney for the sectional rounds. It's thus a natural fit as 25% of the West quartet of regions.

Counterintuitive though it may seem, the ODAC is part of the western half of D3 ... in spite of the fact that one of its campuses is so close to the Atlantic Ocean that you can smell the salt air!

While the breakdown certainly took on a strong East v West... my conversations make it sound like they are going to mix things around each year.

That's a shame, since regionality adds some spice to what might otherwise be a game played by two random and meaningless aggregations of players (i.e., a glorified pick-up game).

As for players that don't see much time getting on the roster from losing semi-final teams... I would look at it this way. They were part of a team that got to Salem but maybe they didn't get a chance to really play. This is their reward even if they aren't a star... for being a four-year player at the school that nearly accomplished the ultimate goal of a championship.

Is participation restricted to four-year players, then? Do we know for sure that seniors who transferred in at some point during their careers will not be allowed to participate?

The "reward" concept seems pretty feeble to me, inasmuch as their "reward" is to look and feel thoroughly outclassed by their teammates and opponents in the senior All-Star game. Nevertheless, I accept the true rationale that I suspect is behind this, which is to cut down on costs by using four players who are already on the premises as of Friday night.

It is also the first year for this... and I am sure things will continue to be tweeked in the future.

I suspect that as well.

[Just Bill]

My point was that I found it odd that, say if UW-Stevens Point loses, one UWSP player will be on the East squad and one will be on the West squad.  Seems like they should be on the same All-Star team.

[UWBadgers]

How were players selected to play in the all-star game?

[Pat Coleman]

In this scenario, yes, the team may end up with token seniors from a Final Four team that is junior-led, true. It wouldn't be possible to just have a couple players on standby, though, in case there was a spot needed. Indeed, it's a cost consideration. Many years this will work out for them -- in this case, not so much.

Similarly with how they are splitting up the players, one from each team slated toward each roster. Because of the geography, it's impossible to guarantee one East school and one West school will be eliminated on Friday night -- not just this year, but any year that the committee puts together the bracket intelligently, as it did this season.

Players had to be nominated by their NABC member head coach. From that group, their selection committee whittled the list down to four or five in each region, ultimately selecting two -- in part based on positionality, since unlike an NABC All-American team, this team must actually be capable of taking the floor, and in part based on who is available.

It's possible one or more players may have turned down the invitation. However, the NABC is paying for their flights and accommodations, so cost should not have been an issue.

Like with any process, someone must be nominated. There's always a chance that a player you think should be in the game was not nominated. In addition, a coach must be a member of the NABC in order to nominate, and there's at least one relatively prominent Division III basketball program where this is not the case.

Is participation restricted to four-year players, then? Do we know for sure that seniors who transferred in at some point during their careers will not be allowed to participate?

No such restriction. Kevin Misevicius was a junior college transfer to Cabrini last season.

In the case of Randolph-Macon, those were the only two seniors on the roster. I would rather see them honor someone like Trey Drake of North Carolina Wesleyan, the USA South player of the year, or Greg Hernandez of Maryville, each of whom are relatively near Salem and wouldn't require an advance plane ticket. But so be it. It's the first time, too -- if they see this become a regular occurrence, perhaps things will change for future years.