2012 Division III NCAA Tournament

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

I, too, had 7 of 8 right into the Elite 8 and have all four left in the Final 4...I have UST beating Wooster in the title game. (Of course, I pick UST to win it all every year, every sport)

It looks like a very very good final quartet...pretty wide open, I think, with all four teams having a legitimate shot at winning it.  Gonna be some great hoops!!

[sac]

Efficiency ratings went 8-0 last night.

Are you sure?  I thought SP had the highest efficiency in the tournament.

... Not that it mattered when they shot just 50% from the line and lost by two...

My mistake, 7-1 last night.  2-2 tonight.

I think Williams will come out to be a marginal favorite next weekend over Middlebury in the finals.  Should be 2 close matchups though.

[ronk]

The St. Mary's/Middlebury attendance is listed at 174


This is why neutral site Sectional's is just a bad idea all around.

Except for a home team winning primarily because it wasn't a neutral-court contest. Or maybe because this neutral court was 8 hours away from the participants instead of 3 hours for geographical diversity.

[nescac1]

Curious if any conference can top any of these.  Since 1994, when NESCAC was first eligible to compete in the tourney:

(1) One NESCAC school has made six Final Fours (Williams)
(2) NESCAC has had two teams make the Final Four twice (Amherst/Williams 2004, Midd/Williams 2011)
(3) NESCAC has had five conference schools make the Final Four (Williams x 6, Amherst x 4, Trinity, Conn College, Midd)
(4) Two NESCAC schools have won national titles (Williams and Amherst) (WIAC I know can equal that one)

Since 2003, NESCAC has AVERAGED one Final Four team per year!

I realize that, in some (but certainly not all) years NESCAC teams have an easier path to the Final Four.  No one can claim that this year, as Midd had to go on the road despite earning a top seed, and Williams had to beat two top-ten caliber teams.  But even given that, that is a pretty damn impressive record over the last 17 years, and especially the last 9 years ...

[Bengalsrule]

The St. Mary's/Middlebury attendance is listed at 174


This is why neutral site Sectional's is just a bad idea all around.

Except for a home team winning primarily because it wasn't a neutral-court contest. Or maybe because this neutral court was 8 hours away from the participants instead of 3 hours for geographical diversity.

I'm not sure who was counting but there were considerably more than 174 at the Palestra last night!!

[Greek Tragedy]

St. Thomas beat the defending National Champions, #3 Stevens Point and then topped #7 Augustana at Rock Island to advance.  Both were ranked higher than the Tommies.

Not to take anything away from the NESCAC, but...

Williams beat two top ten teams AT HOME, both ranked lower than the #4 Ephs.

Middlebury was ranked #2 in the nation, so though not at home, they were probably favored in both games.

Again, the NESCAC is a very good conference, don't get me wrong! 

[(509)Rat]

The NESCAC teams had the "easiest" draws IMO but I put easy in quotes because no matter what sectional you are in you had to beat equally talented teams to get to Salem. Everyone in the final 4 is more than deserving.

This Whitworth fan will now be rooting for a St Thomas v Wooster final though! 

[Bucket]

Couldn't disagree more.

Williams had the most difficult draw of the weekend--Va Wes and Amherst. Both of those teams are better than any that played at Wooster.

And Middlebury had to play on Rochester's home court, in front of their home crowd, followed by a very good St. Mary's squad, which dispatched the ODAC's RMC the week prior.

If Troy Whittington is not 100 percent in Salem, then Wooster gets a HUGE break and the Final Four is robbed of the nation's most dynamic player not being at full strength.

Midd-St. Thomas should be a great match-up. Of course, I'm with the Panthers. 

[ScotsFan]

Couldn't disagree more.

Williams had the most difficult draw of the weekend--Va Wes and Amherst. Both of those teams are better than any that played at Wooster.

Couldn't disagree more. 

Are you suggesting WW is chopped liver?  I mean, they were only the #1 team in the nation and all... 

If Troy Whittington is not 100 percent in Salem, then Wooster gets a HUGE break and the Final Four is robbed of the nation's most dynamic player not being at full strength.

Kind of like the HUGE break your Ephs received back in 2003 when Wooster's Bryan Nelson suffered a stress fracture in their Elite 8 game and basically played on one leg in their semi-final game and still took Williams to OT.  Oh yeah, he was not only the top player for Wooster, he was also the National POY that year as well.  So we Wooster fans know all too well about injuries to key players coming at the worst times of the season...

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I think Middlebury had the easiest draw, especially when RMC got bounced.  They just matched up better against St. Mary's.

I think the other three draws were pretty even.  St. Thomas ended up with the toughest path, but that has more to do with matchups, which teams can't control.

I do think the Whitworth-Wooster game was the toughest thus far in terms of individual game matchups.  That's not to say Williams-Amherst or St. Thomas-Augustana are chopped lived.

No one had an easy time of it, which is a welcome change from past years.

[Greek Tragedy]

Again, Williams was playing at home against 2 lower ranked opponents while St. Thomas played two higher ranked opponents, both champions of two of the toughest conferences in the nation, and also the latter was in Rock Island on the road.

[nescac1]

We can disagree about who had the toughest draw, as I think Whitworth, for example, should not have been number one entering the tourney, but the point I was making was not that the NESCAC teams had the TOUGHEST draw this year, but that no one can claim Williams (in particular) or Middlebury had an EASY road to the Final Four.  The draws were reasonably close in difficulty this year, although we can quibble back and forth, and it is just incredible impressive that NESCAC, for the second time since 2004 (!), got two teams into the Final Four.  I don't believe any other conference has had more than one in that same time period, although I could be mistaken.  Again, while I acknowledge that in SOME years NESCAC teams have had an easier road than out West (for example, Williams last year had a pretty easy path to Salem due to the upset of Midd), I think the difference may be exaggerated because of the lack of respect for Northeast teams, and averaging one Final Four team per year, as a conference, since 2003 speaks for itself.  And it's not as if the NESCAC schools, when they've made final fours during the Salem era, have acquitted themselves poorly ... five title game appearances, and two victories shows that the teams who made it, belonged there.  Here is hoping for two and one more, respectively!

I feel like, by both Massey for sure, and sometimes on this board, the caliber of Northeast / New England hoops is underrated.  There was a very deep reservoir of talent in New England this year and some teams like Bowdoin and Trinity would post gaudy records in other conferences.  The NESCAC clearly had two of the top four (as has been demonstrated) teams in the country this year, and one other who was clearly a top ten squad and really just a half-step behind the two Final Four teams -- no other league had close to that kind of power at the top.  And Trinity by the end of the year, I can testify, was playing really well to boot. 

ScotsFan, I don't think Williams fans ever failed to acknowledge that we received a break in 2003 with Nelson seriously hurt (and he managed to dominate, anyway, tremendous, tremendous talent plus heart).  Injuries are a big part of the game, especially this time of year.  Karma has worked out for you, with our all-American post suffering a serious injury in the game prior to our semifinal battle, just like what happened to Nelson.  If Troy plays (and I expect he will, though it is uncertain at this point, but short of risking permanent damage, he'll be out there, believe me), he certainly won't be close to one hundred percent ... just like Nelson wasn't.  I really want the country to see what Troy can do when close-to-healthy, not just because of what he means to the Ephs, but because of how hard he has worked and how passionate he is about the game (just watch him in pre-game intros to get an idea, you can't fake that intensity).  Ask the Stevens Point fans at last year's Final Four what they thought about him -- he is substantially better this year.  Or ask the Virginia Wesleyan fans.  But he can't catch a break ... sprained MCL, then ten staples in his head vs. Midd, now the serious hand injury.  And he has played through all of it.  At his best / healthiest, I've never seen a more dominant post presence in NESCAC, and certainly haven't seen a tougher kid, both mentally and physically. 

I hope (and even, so long as Troy is at least out on the court, dare I say think) the Ephs will win, but if they don't, no excuses, as again, karma benefited us once vs. Wooster without a doubt, and now has evened out.  So consider us square!

[Ralph Turner]

We can disagree about who had the toughest draw, as I think Whitworth, for example, should not have been number one entering the tourney, but the point I was making was not that the NESCAC teams had the TOUGHEST draw this year, but that no one can claim Williams (in particular) or Middlebury had an EASY road to the Final Four.  The draws were reasonably close in difficulty this year, although we can quibble back and forth, and it is just incredible impressive that NESCAC, for the second time since 2004 (!), got two teams into the Final Four.  I don't believe any other conference has had more than one in that same time period, although I could be mistaken.  Again, while I acknowledge that in SOME years NESCAC teams have had an easier road than out West (for example, Williams last year had a pretty easy path to Salem due to the upset of Midd), I think the difference may be exaggerated because of the lack of respect for Northeast teams, and averaging one Final Four team per year, as a conference, since 2003 speaks for itself.  And it's not as if the NESCAC schools, when they've made final fours during the Salem era, have acquitted themselves poorly ... five title game appearances, and two victories shows that the teams who made it, belonged there.  Here is hoping for two and one more, respectively!

I feel like, by both Massey for sure, and sometimes on this board, the caliber of Northeast / New England hoops is underrated.  There was a very deep reservoir of talent in New England this year and some teams like Bowdoin and Trinity would post gaudy records in other conferences.  The NESCAC clearly had two of the top four (as has been demonstrated) teams in the country this year, and one other who was clearly a top ten squad and really just a half-step behind the two Final Four teams -- no other league had close to that kind of power at the top.  And Trinity by the end of the year, I can testify, was playing really well to boot.  

ScotsFan, I don't think Williams fans ever failed to acknowledge that we received a break in 2003 with Nelson seriously hurt (and he managed to dominate, anyway, tremendous, tremendous talent plus heart).  Injuries are a big part of the game, especially this time of year.  Karma has worked out for you, with our all-American post suffering a serious injury in the game prior to our semifinal battle, just like what happened to Nelson.  If Troy plays (and I expect he will, though it is uncertain at this point, but short of risking permanent damage, he'll be out there, believe me), he certainly won't be close to one hundred percent ... just like Nelson wasn't.  I really want the country to see what Troy can do when close-to-healthy, not just because of what he means to the Ephs, but because of how hard he has worked and how passionate he is about the game (just watch him in pre-game intros to get an idea, you can't fake that intensity).  Ask the Stevens Point fans at last year's Final Four what they thought about him -- he is substantially better this year.  Or ask the Virginia Wesleyan fans.  But he can't catch a break ... sprained MCL, then ten staples in his head vs. Midd, now the serious hand injury.  And he has played through all of it.  At his best / healthiest, I've never seen a more dominant post presence in NESCAC, and certainly haven't seen a tougher kid, both mentally and physically.  

I hope (and even, so long as Troy is at least out on the court, dare I say think) the Ephs will win, but if they don't, no excuses, as again, karma benefited us once vs. Wooster without a doubt, and now has evened out.  So consider us square!

Respectfully, nescac1, I need you to explain why you think that Massey underrates the Northeast Region.  The Northeast Region has the most teams; the Northeast region teams are more likely than other Regions to play non-conference games in the 25-game season.  The robustness of the number of non-conference opponents among the Northeast Region teams is greater than almost any single region, with the possible exception of the Mid-Atlantic.  With the statistical modeling that Massey uses, I need more explanation concerning your thoughts on Massey's underrating the Northeast Region.  Thank you.

[nescac1]

I am no expert on Massey's methodology, so I can't comment on any methodological flaws.  I just see his results, and they always seem skewed to Western teams (even some mediocre Western teams), especially teams that play WIAC, or play anyone who play WIAC.  I am not sure where Massey had Williams, Midd and Amherst entering the tourney, but I feel confident those are two top three, and then a top ten, teams respectively, and I think the NCAA results bore that out ... where did Massey rank them?  Basically, I am saying, whatever his methodology is, his results always seem to skew too much in favor of the West.  But admittedly, I don't know enough about what that methodology is to comment beyond that. 

[ScotsFan]

ScotsFan, I don't think Williams fans ever failed to acknowledge that we received a break in 2003 with Nelson seriously hurt (and he managed to dominate, anyway, tremendous, tremendous talent plus heart).  Injuries are a big part of the game, especially this time of year.  Karma has worked out for you, with our all-American post suffering a serious injury in the game prior to our semifinal battle, just like what happened to Nelson.  If Troy plays (and I expect he will, though it is uncertain at this point, but short of risking permanent damage, he'll be out there, believe me), he certainly won't be close to one hundred percent ... just like Nelson wasn't.  I really want the country to see what Troy can do when close-to-healthy, not just because of what he means to the Ephs, but because of how hard he has worked and how passionate he is about the game (just watch him in pre-game intros to get an idea, you can't fake that intensity).  Ask the Stevens Point fans at last year's Final Four what they thought about him -- he is substantially better this year.  Or ask the Virginia Wesleyan fans.  But he can't catch a break ... sprained MCL, then ten staples in his head vs. Midd, now the serious hand injury.  And he has played through all of it.  At his best / healthiest, I've never seen a more dominant post presence in NESCAC, and certainly haven't seen a tougher kid, both mentally and physically. 

I hope (and even, so long as Troy is at least out on the court, dare I say think) the Ephs will win, but if they don't, no excuses, as again, karma benefited us once vs. Wooster without a doubt, and now has evened out.  So consider us square!

nescac, trust me, I for one am hoping to see Troy play and have an impact on the game.  Because I would rather see Wooster beat Williams at 100% as opposed to seeing the Scots beat a Williams team not at 100% and then have to hear the excuses about how different it would have been with a healthy Whittington. 

I was just pointing out to you that, while it would be a break for Wooster, Williams was already the beneficiary of a big break from Wooster and a malfunctioning shot clock back in 2003.