2012 Division III NCAA Tournament

[ILive4This]

agreed, I cannot get the website to work properly either, perhaps it is because I am using safari?

[Mr. Ypsi]

not making money on the tournament, if true, shows some ineptness on the NCAA's parts, figure for a sectional, you could get 5000 fans at an average of 5 bucks per person, per day, thats 50,000 across 4 sectionals thats 200k, I know we are not talking millions from TV revenue etc, but definitely more then enough for profit after taking out travel costs for the 12 non-hosting teams (on average at least 8 are taking busses).

I am just saying something to think about, and Plattsburgh had a great season, going undefeated in region is awesome, but they did not even play some of the tougher teams in their region. They lost to OXY which squeeked into the tournament and lost to Gordon which was not even ranked in the NE region. Honestly I think their most quality win was against Middlebury, and that does not say a whole heck of a lot.

Take Karma from me if you must, but I am just stating my opinion and telling it like it is.

1. There are VERY few locations where you could get 5,000 - many sectionals do not even sell out.  The only one which might show a profit is Hope (huge arena, guaranteed sellout); but even there they will probably only recoup Whitworth's airfare.

2. In addition to transportation, there is lodging, paying the refs, etc.  It is a more costly enterprise than you are realizing.  (And busses are not exactly cheap - you been to a gas station lately?   And then get, what, 4 miles to the gallon?  And pay the bus driver?)

3. Like em or hate em, the d3 rules are what they are.  Plattsburgh earned hosting fair and square, whether Amherst fans like it or not.

[sac]

There are many instances where Sectionals do not sell out, neutral site sectionals would only be worse.

Last year for example
Hope/Carroll played the first game of a split session in front of 836, while the Stevens Point/Washington game was a sellout of about 2800.  What would the attendance have been if all 4 schools were asked to go to Chicago or Des Moines?

The Hope/Washington sectional final game in Stevens Point, WI drew 809.

We'd love to believe that D3 could draw 5,000 fans to a neutral site, but it just can't without a host school.  There will be 3,500 at Hope this weekend but only a couple hundred will come from Wheaton and Whitworth, maybe 200 or 300 from Ohio Wesleyan.  Thats just the reality of D3.

I don't even think the Final Four has completely sold out every year its been in Salem.

The D3 leader in attendance (Hope) will not average over 3,000 per game this season, even with a beautifull arena like facility.  5,000 at a neutral site, or even more than 1,500 I believe is unrealistic.

[fpc85]

Ilive4this is not an amherst fan

[Jacketfan2011]

I believe that you could make the argument that UR lost all 5 games because of foul shooting.  Well, less so the Chicago game maybe, but the bigs making foul shots during the body of the game would have certainly prevented OT losses to Emory and NYU and likely the 'deis and WashU losses as well.  If you are saying the bigs missed foul shots at the end of games against WashU and NYU, I'll take your word for it as I wasn't there.

And I agree about Milbrand and Roberson.  There is going to be a LOT of responsibility placed on Roberson next year.  Though they are going after some LARGE kids for next years freshman class.

I wasn't at either game, but I did listen to them. NYU is the only one that really stands out to me that I can remember.

And I've heard from some decent sources that the recruiting class is pretty stacked. If we can get a few more like Lebanowski, we'll be in good shape for quite a while.

As good as Mike is, what they need are bigs.  Of the 7 freshman this year, 5 are guards, 1 is a 3/4 and then there is Roberson.  The guards are a nice mix and with Kaplan, Runco, Chely, and Cubit all coming back and with the experience Mike and Murphy are getting during this run, they should be pretty well set at the guard spot.  I know they have brought in guys from Fla, Olean, Syracuse, NC and Kentucky and they're all big.  There was 1 guard I believe, but they are pushing for bigs.  SHould know pretty soon I guess.

[ILive4This]

Very true not an Amherst fan, although I do respect them as a team, but they are certainly not MY team. I agree given the system used Plattsburgh earned the right to host, I am simply saying would they still win by the numbers had they played Rochester twice?

Also I am proposing a bigger venue, yes, and I disagree I actually think in this situation if geography is close enough they would sell out bigger arenas. I can say in the case of brandeis, if the game were in western mass (i.e under 2 hours) they would send about 200 people or more, if it were at home, they would have 1500+. So if you assume a game in western mass gets 1500+ from Amherst, and then around 200 from the other 3 teams, plus locals etc. Remember western mass is bball country, you could see the numbers I talked about.

In fact Plattsburgh sold out its tickets in 3 hours, something tells me if a number of tickets were not reserved for brandeis and the gym was larger they still would have sold out. Now imagine having this in a city where amherst and brandeis alums are abundant, and you have even more people to come out for the games.

I am not saying sectionals should be at MSG and the Staples center, but perhaps venues larger than 1000-1500.

[eazye1334]

I believe that you could make the argument that UR lost all 5 games because of foul shooting.  Well, less so the Chicago game maybe, but the bigs making foul shots during the body of the game would have certainly prevented OT losses to Emory and NYU and likely the 'deis and WashU losses as well.  If you are saying the bigs missed foul shots at the end of games against WashU and NYU, I'll take your word for it as I wasn't there.

And I agree about Milbrand and Roberson.  There is going to be a LOT of responsibility placed on Roberson next year.  Though they are going after some LARGE kids for next years freshman class.

I wasn't at either game, but I did listen to them. NYU is the only one that really stands out to me that I can remember.

And I've heard from some decent sources that the recruiting class is pretty stacked. If we can get a few more like Lebanowski, we'll be in good shape for quite a while.

As good as Mike is, what they need are bigs.  Of the 7 freshman this year, 5 are guards, 1 is a 3/4 and then there is Roberson.  The guards are a nice mix and with Kaplan, Runco, Chely, and Cubit all coming back and with the experience Mike and Murphy are getting during this run, they should be pretty well set at the guard spot.  I know they have brought in guys from Fla, Olean, Syracuse, NC and Kentucky and they're all big.  There was 1 guard I believe, but they are pushing for bigs.  SHould know pretty soon I guess.

I didn't mean guards, I just meant athletic ability, skill, and intelligence-wise.

[sac]

not making money on the tournament, if true, shows some ineptness on the NCAA's parts, figure for a sectional, you could get 5000 fans at an average of 5 bucks per person, per day, thats 50,000 across 4 sectionals thats 200k,

Thats not what you said earlier, which is what I was responding to.


I will agree the NCAA misses alot of opportunities to offset the expense of the D3 tournament by where they place Sectionals in some years.

[Jacketfan2011]

Then I agree 100%. 

[Greek Tragedy]

As said previously, there are few teams that would sell out their gyms.  Point is one of them.  At Point's sectional last year, there was a line forming Monday night (ok, it was a guy sleeping in his truck) to get tickets Tuesday morning for the weekend's games.  If Point played their sectional at nearby Oshkosh, they'd sell out Kolf's 5,000 seater, probably.  But that's not always going to happen.  Whitewater hosted this year's regional and couldn't sell out Kachel gym, this with Lawrence only being 3 hours away.  This website says Kachel holds 2300.  You put the game at a neutral site and there is no way you'll get the same amount of fans to the games.  At least with a host team, you get one sellout or close to it...and if they advance, then double that.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ilive4this is not an amherst fan

Since ILive4This was a Posters' Poll voter, I knew that.  That's also why I singled out Amherst supporters (who I think have been the MOST obnoxious about the Plattsburgh locale), so as NOT to single out IL4T (I may twit my voters from time to time, but I protect them from 'outsiders' ).

I'm ambivalent on the hosting minimums.  Raising the minimum would rule out a lot of teams that have earned hosting privileges, but allowing less than a 1800-2000 capacity rules out a lot of fans.  On balance, the current rules are probably better than the alternative.

ILive4This, only the Hope sectional (huge arena, guaranteed sell-out) has any chance of EVEN breaking even (even then, they will probably only recoup Whitworth's airfare).  Even tournament games lose money - we are at the mercy of the d1 TV contract revenues.  Bigger venues (in the few locations they DO sell out) would be good for the fans, but d3 is for the athletes, not the fans.  Plattsburgh earned their hosting.

[Ralph Turner]

Very true not an Amherst fan, although I do respect them as a team, but they are certainly not MY team. I agree given the system used Plattsburgh earned the right to host, I am simply saying would they still win by the numbers had they played Rochester twice?

Also I am proposing a bigger venue, yes, and I disagree I actually think in this situation if geography is close enough they would sell out bigger arenas. I can say in the case of Brandeis, if the game were in western mass (i.e under 2 hours) they would send about 200 people or more, if it were at home, they would have 1500+. So if you assume a game in western mass gets 1500+ from Amherst, and then around 200 from the other 3 teams, plus locals etc. Remember western mass is bball country, you could see the numbers I talked about.

In fact Plattsburgh sold out its tickets in 3 hours, something tells me if a number of tickets were not reserved for brandeis and the gym was larger they still would have sold out. Now imagine having this in a city where amherst and brandeis alums are abundant, and you have even more people to come out for the games.

I am not saying sectionals should be at MSG and the Staples center, but perhaps venues larger than 1000-1500.

Respectfully,  travel to those places is impossible.  You cannot get a plane ticket to any remote D3 venue on 7 days notice for less than $400.

Busing costs in this part of the country are going for $4/mile.  Up to 500 miles round trip 1000 miles costs $4000.

You just gobbled up 570 tickets at $7.00 each.

Travel from George Fox for (is it a traveling party of 20 per team?) with best bulk price anywhere on 7 days notice $300?

$6000 expense.

In D-3 almost no one flies, except for the one regular season tourney that some schools take.

The home court advantage to the "travel-favored" venues would be oppressive.  My theory is that the centrally located venues have gained an incremental advantage over the years, places like Wooster, WashU, some of CCIW venues, etc.

If we cannot make money on these things, then let's go for the experience.  Plattsburgh went thru region undefeated.

What else are you going to ask a team to do?  We build interest in D3 by the excitement that surrounds the "circus coming to town".

I know that in Texas we are ecstatic to have Gordon Mann and David Collinge and a few others coming, just for the game!  I think than builds a stronger D3 experience that trying to get a sellout here and there.

And five years from now, most of us will have streaming video.  The ASC added this year.  Who else did?  That may cut down on the travel, but we get to be D3 junkies and video-stream all four sectionals at once in the sports bar known as our computer room! 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I am simply saying would they still win by the numbers had they played Rochester twice?

This is not a smart argument to get into when defending a NESCAC team's right to host.  Plattsburgh might have only played Rochester once, but they played every team in their conference twice.

[Greek Tragedy]

We build interest in D3 by the excitement that surrounds the "circus coming to town".

Where is Grinnell playing? lol...

[Cards7580]

"...This is not a smart argument to get into when defending a NESCAC team's right to host.  Plattsburgh might have only played Rochester once, but they played every team in their conference twice...."

The played rochester last year in the 1st round at St John Fisher, not this year.

And they only played Cortland, Oneonta, Potsdam, SUNYIT and New Paltz twice during the regular season.
And played Fredonia, Oswego and Geneseo twice each. Once in the regular season and once in the SUNYAC tourney.