greyshirting

[John Gleich]

Here's the deal with "grayshirting."  It's basically a loophole in the NCAA documentation that says that a player doesn't lose a year of eligibility if he (or she, don't want to be gender, uh, inequitable) does NOT practice (or meet, or go to any team functions) with a team from the date of the first competition.  So, basically, even a kid who is NOT going to be competing in a given year can get a month (not sure of the exact amount of time) or so practice with the team (complete with the other players AND, more importantly, the instruction from the coaches).  They then are "cut" and have to do any other practice through out the year on their own (they can't even meet with the coaches).

So it could be thought of as an extended tryout, with cuts made the day before the first game.  Or, it could be thought of as kids practicing for a month and not losing a year of eligibility.

To my knowledge, at least in the UWSP Bball situation that Pat mentioned, the kids were all full time students, taking full (at least 12 credit, making them a full time student) load.  They, also, were NOT with the team after the first competition, in either a "student manager" capacity, or as a practicing (and not playing, a la redshirting) player.

[Pat Coleman]

I believe Coach Bennett specifically said otherwise in the postgame news conference in Salem, that they were around as managers.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Not to keep repeating myself, but I really want someone to tell me why this is such a big deal in D3?  Sure, it gives some kids a "fifth year" if they take that long to finish school, but how many kids will continue to pay tuition while they don't play what will undoubtedly be the last organized ball of their lives?  If some guy joins the Army, tours with the Army All-Star Basketball team for eight years, bulks up to the size of your avergae NBA power forward and then enrolls at a d3 school at 26 with five years of top flight experience, practice, coaching and physical development we write sentimental puff pieces about the "unusually old freshmen making a difference and his 'unique' road to d3 ball."  They still only get on the court/field for four years.  Who the heck cares if they spent extra time practicing?  A prep school year does the same thing.  I'm not trying to be a pain about this, but I just don't understand why some people seem so agrivated by greyshirting.

[Jonny Utah]

yea, to me if you can stay in school and get a double major, more minors, a different concentration, or maybe even a masters degree, then I say good for you.  It helps out everyone in the end

[Pat Coleman]

Who the heck cares if they spent extra time practicing?

The schools whose tuition is so high that it makes it prohibitive for a student-athlete to do so.

And frankly, why shouldn't they be limited to four years? This isn't Division I.

[frank uible]

Why should the freedom of a college and its students to work out that college's definition of a "student" and the rights, privileges and responsibilities of its students without interference from outside parties like the NCAA? Consequently if the college defines a person as a student and provides that all its students may play its version of inter-collegiate football, then who should be able to say otherwise, irrespective of any student's academic or extra-curricular history. If football opponents of that college are sufficiently disapproving, then the opponents can take the college off the football schedule. This approach would give maximum freedom to all persons and other parties.

[smedindy]

There has to be a somewhat equal playing field if teams are competing for a championship. It is all well and good that like teams play like teams in a conference, because each conference really should have teams of a similar academic footprint. However, when all is swirled into one basket, you need to have some sense of rules and order about eligibility, etc.

[frank uible]

smed: The fewer rules, the better. When in doubt, reduce, simplify, eliminate the rules. Freedom is more important than order.The NCAA doesn't do that, in my judgment. Neither does NESCAC. Undoubtedly there are many others which fail in this regard.

[Jonny Utah]

Frank let me say this, I see d3football and the NCAA as kind of like a private golf country club.  Only certain people can join, and there are rules when you do join. 

If the private golf club didnt have any rules, then people would be driving carts all over the course ruining it, you might have slow play, 6 people to a cart, unprofessinal play on the course, overplay, people that dont know how to play destroying the course.  It would ruin it for every one.

Now with certain rules, private country clubs can be amazing.  Some of the best looking golf clubs, nice courses, and a great time had by all.

d3football and the ncaa is kind of like that private country club with out the snobby pricetag.

Teams like I mentioned, the charlestown townies, marlboro shamrocks or any other semi-pro league....there are no rules there anyone can play.  Those teams would even beat 90% of d3 teams......but the competition sucks and no one cares.  Thats why d3football and college football is so great, the tradition of the schools, the student athlete and the RULES that set up good competition.

even the nfl has rules....drug tests, money sharing, salary caps.....all to make for better competition.

I do agree that there should be redshirting but just for that one year and that one year only.  From that first time you put on the pads and practice, you should have 5 years to play 4 seasons of college football.  Or maybe two if your getting a masters degree???

[frank uible]

bomber: What can I say ? - I want more freedom, more competition and would be willing to pay the price of the consequent loss of order. I believe that you like it more or less as it is. Probably we will never agree. You may be an authoritarian. I have always been anti-authority. My life experience tells me that much of authority is foolish, self interested, corrupt and sometimes intentionally cruel. Yours may tell you that authority brings necessary order and wisdom out of chaos. Most likely you get along with authority quite well while my relationship with authority is at best uneasy and often adversarial.

[Jonny Utah]

yea frank I guess your right, we are just going to agree to dissagree.

I think there are too many idiots out there that cant handle too much freedom.  Some people will cheat and steal and that ruins it for the majority of others.

[smedindy]

I for one would loathe to have college sports be like the old UNLV teams, or the old Oklahoma football squad under Switzer.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

People, this is getting out of control.  No Division Three athletic team can be like Tark's UNLV or OU football.  D-III athletes do not get paid to play.  The guys in D-I get full scholarships and then, if corrupt, money under the table.  No one is paying off their D-III players, at least not enough to justify extra years at several thosand dollars a pop.  A player gets four years to play and that's it.  There is a rule, a very fair rule.  So what if he spends an extra year getting better first?  Top high school athletes have private coaches, they pay lots of money to go to expensive camps with one-on-one instruction from very successful tutors.  I really find it hard to believe that anyone would have a problem with some kid spending a couple years in the weight room and running pick-up games with the varisty all summer and then trying out for the team.  Isn't that what people do to improve?  When I got cut from the varsity in high school, what did the coach tell me to do?  Work out, hit the weights, show up for pick-up games in the off-season.  He told me to improve.  These guys are not sitting out because they are saving potential starters for next year.  If a guy could impact a season, he would be on the team.  You're talking about saving a year of elligibility for a guy who might be the 12th or 13th guy on the team, someone who might someday crack the top 8.  If a coach wants to do that, be my guest, but he/she should probably take stock of their career and figure out what psychological problems would compel them to focus so thoroughly on winning when they don't even have scholarship players.


That might have been a bit over-the-top, but I haven't ranted in a long time and I need a good pre-season warmup.

[smedindy]

Hoops Fan,

That's well and good when it's cheap enough to attend some schools that you can go 5 years. It's cost prohibitive for a lot of D-3 schools to not graduate in four years and some D-3 schools really only offer a four-year program. What's fair, then? Why should some schools have that advantage that others cannot have due to finanical circumstances.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's not an advantage.  The kid can just get a job and work for a year, then enroll in school and go four.  All this 'greyshirting' is doing is helping him get some classes done and making extra money for the school (most of which will go to academics).  What's the range of tuition costs for d-III?  I would assume in state tuition at the state schools would be the lowest, up to what MIT?  MIT is pushing $45,000 per year, NJCU is $7,000 for NJ residents.  You could go to NJCU for 8.5 years for what it costs to go to MIT for one.  That's a big disparity to say the least.  You know what, if some kid wants to go to NJCU for 8.5 years, get four or five bachelor's degrees, and play basketball for the last four of them, why are we stopping him?  He could work at the 7/11 for 4.5 years, then enroll.  Either way he is free to play pick-up games, hit the weights, whatever.  It's the same thing, but apprently for some people, one is ok and the other is not??  It's not necessarily the thing itself that I'm defending, but the paradox of what is deemed appropriate and what is deemed wrong.