FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[bleedpurple]

And while I'm at it, I'll add an after-thought. Remember the Border Battles in the Metrodome back in the late '90's and how the WIAC used to dominate the NSIC? And, what happened thereafter? Wisconsin became prime hunting ground for football talent. Today, Winona, Mankato, and UMD alone have nearly 100 total Wisconsinites on their rosters, and the quality of their teams have moved skyward as a result.

On the other side of the river, the quality of the western-most WIAC teams, UWL and UWRF in particular, has gone dramatically downhill. Just a coincidence or is something more meaningful in play here?

Interestingly, Berezowitz, Zweifel, and Co were together at UWW for years and could not dominate the WIAC UNTIL the NSIC shifted its emphasis in recruiting to the East. Perhaps UWW's current dominance simply comes down to the fact they have been most immune from the incursions from outside-the-state scholarship schools?  The Law of Unforeseen Consequences?  I think so.

Yes, and UWW passed Linfield, St. John's, Central College, UMHB, Wesley, and all the other national powers (rivaled only by Mount Union) because the D2 schools finally woke up to the fact that Wisconsin is loaded with football talent.  

I agree that the Minnesota schools have hurt UW-RF and UW-LC. However, to say UWW's "current dominance simply comes down to" this is disingenuous at best. It minimizes the commitment and hard work of of hundreds of players and dozens of coaches.

And for the record, UW-RF and UW-LC were NEVER as good as UW-W is right now.  

[skunks_sidekick]

And while I'm at it, I'll add an after-thought. Remember the Border Battles in the Metrodome back in the late '90's and how the WIAC used to dominate the NSIC? And, what happened thereafter? Wisconsin became prime hunting ground for football talent. Today, Winona, Mankato, and UMD alone have nearly 100 total Wisconsinites on their rosters, and the quality of their teams have moved skyward as a result.

On the other side of the river, the quality of the western-most WIAC teams, UWL and UWRF in particular, has gone dramatically downhill. Just a coincidence or is something more meaningful in play here?

Interestingly, Berezowitz, Zweifel, and Co were together at UWW for years and could not dominate the WIAC UNTIL the NSIC shifted its emphasis in recruiting to the East. Perhaps UWW's current dominance simply comes down to the fact they have been most immune from the incursions from outside-the-state scholarship schools?  The Law of Unforeseen Consequences?  I think so.

Yes, and UWW passed Linfield, St. John's, Central College, UMHB, Wesley, and all the other national powers (rivaled only by Mount Union) because the D2 schools finally woke up to the fact that Wisconsin is loaded with football talent.  

I agree that the Minnesota schools have hurt UW-RF and UW-LC. However, to say UWW's "current dominance simply comes down to" this is disingenuous at best. It minimizes the commitment and hard work of of hundreds of players and dozens of coaches.

And for the record, UW-RF and UW-LC were NEVER as good as UW-W is right now.  

What he said.....I was talking specifically about WW....not the WIAC in general.  WW is at a whole different level.

[BDB]

Alot posts can get broken down in one way or another. I think kestrel brings up some very interesting points.

Without taking anything away from Whitewater's success, if you guys want other fans opinions then give the discussion a chance. We've all certainly paid our respects to the Warhawks. Your squad hasn't been getting hurt in the respect department.

Saying that UW-L's best team wasn't as good as today's UW-W is pure speculation. River Falls had a nice run for awhile. Stout's 2000 squad was 10-0 in the regular season. The mantle changes hands over the course of time.

From my experience watching UWEC against St.John's 10 days ago, they are also a very good team.

That's what makes it fun. All good teams in the WIAC.

[Barber Greene]

Well, with no Warhawk football this weekend, I might just make the drive down to see the fifth ranked Warhawk volleyball team play on Saturday.

[bleedpurple]

Alot posts can get broken down in one way or another. I think kestrel brings up some very interesting points.

Without taking anything away from Whitewater's success, if you guys want other fans opinions then give the discussion a chance. We've all certainly paid our respects to the Warhawks. Your squad hasn't been getting hurt in the respect department.

Saying that UW-L's best team wasn't as good as today's UW-W is pure speculation. River Falls had a nice run for awhile. Stout's 2000 squad was 10-0 in the regular season. The mantle changes hands over the course of time.

From my experience watching UWEC against St.John's 10 days ago, they are also a very good team.

That's what makes it fun. All good teams in the WIAC.

Kestrel brings up some interesting points. However, just as is so often the case in the political forum, his thinking is flawed.  So I thought I would help him out. 

All points of view are welcome, no matter how out there. But all are subject to rebut as well!

My statement regarding UWW being better than UW-L and UW-RF ever were was my opinion. Speculation? Of course it was. Unbiased? Of course it not!

And yes, lots of good teams in the WIAC! I have rooted for the WIAC in every single non-conference game they have played.  And I always will. 

[BDB]

I think the UWRF situation is an interesting one. Part of their issue is with Ramer Field. The whole conference has gone through an upgrade cycle, where needed, in respect to stadiums except for River Falls. I know there is an effort in place to do an upgrade there, but it's a major task.

kestrel, since you seem to have a pulse on UWRF, how much has the lack of an upgraded football stadium hurt them in recruiting in your opinion?

And secondly, my impression as to why they held on to so many D-2 relationships in the past was due to their wishbone offense and other non-conference D-3 schools (or the WIAC schools either for that matter )  not wanting to deal with that. Do you think staying with the bone so long in the past has hurt the Falcons today?

They have had some awesome players to run it, recently I think of Storm Harmon.

I remember watching them play Chadron State NEB. a few years back and the size difference was enormous. Tought to compete. Your thoughts please.

[BoBo]

Curious, during those prior mentioned Border Battle games, why was UWW the only WIAC school not participating? It couldn't have been that Whitewater is not on the western border, since Oshkosh and Stevens Point were involved and the last time I looked, they weren't on the border, either. kestrel, BDB, anybody, do you know the reason?

IMO, it wasn't just the NSIC shifting emphasis in their recruitment that has hurt the western WI WIAC schools and raised UWW. Many of those D2's have raided the Milwaukee area probably more than western/northern parts of the state that were once a very fertile recruiting area for Whitewater, Point, Oshkosh and Platteville. Compare Whitewater's rosters from 10 years ago to now, and you will find the Chicago suburban/northern Illinois area has become a very important and intrigal part of the Warhawk program. Is it just a coincidence that with the rise of Whitewater as the National power in football, something River Falls, Eau Claire have NEVER been (as bleedbpurple correctly stated), they started making inroads in northern Illinois as a recruiting emphasis. Success breeds success. IMO, Platteville has started to see the light, albeit late, but they have discovered Illinois, too. Look at their roster - 47% out of Illinois - overall, more from outside WI than in. Look for Platteville in the coming years to make a major push to the top of the WIAC on a consistant basis because of this, as well.  Whitewater and now Platteville, IMO, have not sat on their hands while those D2 have come in offering scholarship money. They have been pro-active in finding new areas to draw from. Maybe the western Wi schools need to do the same!! 

[fredfalcon]

BDB--I'm not sure Storm Harmon ever played in the wishbone system. He may have  been a freshman when the switch was made. And I don't think the late switch from the bone hurt the Falcons as much as the consistent losing records (3-7 for the last seven? years). Our facilities are the worst in the conference, for sure, but we're SCHEDULED for artificial turf next season. We now have new lights (old ones dated to middle sixties) and locker rooms second to none in the conference, courtesy of the KC Chiefs. The stadium and press box are in later phases of the upgrade. We don't have a "sugar daddy" in RF to match those in Menomonie and WW. That always helps.

The  bone both helped and hurt RF. Nobody in D3 wanted to play us non-conference then, including St. Johns, according to John O. Plus, he has never been afraid to play tough teams. He maintains those games improve teams faster. But Kestrel's point is hard to refute:  starting out 0-3 or 1-2 before league play is not a confidence builder. That's why Stan Z. advised J.O. not to play SJU.

I would lean with bleedpurple in that RF or Lax in their heydays were never as good as WW is now. Lax won the NCAA championship or were in the championship game for a few years sporadically, but never consistently. WW's success has been built on superior talent, and, nobody would deny that they have had hard working players and coaches. But if I'm asked what's more important, talent or coaching, I'll say talent every time.

[BoBo]

I made a quick survey of the football rosters of Mankato, Winona, St. Cloud, and Duluth. This is what I find out about the Wisconsin boys on them and where they come from:

Mankato 26 (18 from SE, east, or southern WI)
Duluth 39 (9 from SE, east, or southern WI)
Winona 36 (16 from SE, east,or southern WI)
St. Cloud 26 (22 from SE, east, or southern WI)
TOTAL     127 (65 from SE, east, or southern WI)

River Falls 2010 roster shows 9 from these same areas.

These D2's in particular, appear to recruit the areas that are generally in the backyard of Oshkosh and Whitewater. I know La Crosse  has always been a good draw and Platteville, too, for kids in these areas. River Falls, not so much, just based on their current roster, IMO.  50% of the River Falls roster comes from Minnesota - quantity yes, quality...maybe not. 42% of La Crosse's come from east or southern WI. These roster numbers kind of shows that Whitewater is not been the most immune from the incursions from outside-the-state scholarship schools, as kestrel's hypothesis suggest. None of the WIAC's are immune. Some have adapted to the situation better than others, plain and simple. Maybe the upcoming coaching change in River Falls will have a greater impact on their fortunes than D2's recuiting WI.

[BDB]

Fred, I agree that John O'Grady is a helluva football coach and aways wanted to play good teams. I actually wish they still played the wishbone. It's a thing of beauty when after banging away at every possible angle, the weak spot is found and then exploited. Big time. Time after time.

I look forward to a rise in Falcon football again. Although the wars on 94 (EC-ST-RF) are ongoing every year, and I love it.

[kestrel]

Blue Devil Bob,

Your observations for the most part are on the money.  Your questions could result in a multi-paragragh dissertation. I will resist that temptation, and perhaps answer in two or three posts over the course of a day or two.

First the stadium question. Perkins Stadium stood where it is in all its glory in 1970, as did ramshackle Ramer Field when Mike Farley came on the scene in 1970. In 1972, he installed the wishbone offense and over the course of the next 26 years UWRF won or tied for the conference title nine times--an average better than one title every three years. My point? The importance of a stadium may be over-rated.

But there are some caveats. First, other schools had mediocre facilities back then, too.  They don't anymore. So, yes, facilities do matter, especially when yours remain unimproved over the course of four decades while your competitors have upgraded significantly. Secondly, today's recruits are of the Sports Center Generation, and even Joe Small from Northwoods Tech can tell you 10 reasons why FieldTurf is superior to all its competitors. So glitz and Jumbotrons matter more to this generation than any that preceded it.

My take? UWRF needs artificial turf. It needs a grandstand on the visitors side to match the home side.  It needs trees and landscaping to make the place aesthetically attractive. It can get by without a Stout-style or god forbid, a La Crosse-style new stadium. On what do I base my conclusion? Winona State's Maxwell Field....a ghetto if I've ever seen one....yet they compete for an NSIC title most every year.

Why do I shoot so low? Because there is no brand name loyalty in River Falls for UWRF , and the dollars won't be forthcoming. RF has the reputation of being a little podunk town where there's nothing to do. But those of us who live here know the truth, and we know all about the diversions a metropolitan area of 2.85 million people can provide--an area that is barely 30 minutes from our front doors.  For example, take three friends who count themselves as Falcon fans. One missed a game to participate in the St. Paul Bike-a-thon. Another's going to Minnesota's match-up with Penn State in women's volleyball. With baseball's Twins going gangbusters, guess where all three prefer to be? (I just hope the Badgers aren't coming to TCF Stadium this fall).

[fredfalcon]

Congrats to Patrick Mengelkoch, one of Stout's captains, for being named to the Good Works Team. Check out the WIAC site to be impressed with the great contributions he's made on campus and in Menomonie, in addition to his contributions as a player. The world needs guys like him.

[bulk19]

It's too bad UWRF wasn't able to retain the KC Chiefs; I seem to recall the New Orleans Saints pumped some money into UWL for improvements, although I'm not exactly sure what all that entailed...

BoBo, perhaps you misstated bleedpurple in saying UWEC has never been a national power. No, they have not sustained a 5-year run like Whitewater, nor won a national championship, or two, as the case is with Whitewater. But they had a powerful team in 1998 and 1981 team that I would have liked to have seen play any WW team from the last five years...

Comments from posters here about UWL not being a national power are just plain silly. Pull up the WIAC page and see who dominated the conference from 1970-2005; that's about a 35-year heyday, if you ask me...
I'm sure the players on those teams would have loved to play the more recent Warhawks teams...

Last time I checked, UWL also won two NCAA titles in a five-year period; but UWL did it in four, from 1992-95...

And for those who are keeping score at home, UWL still leads in the trophy case hardware, three to two... (But I guess an NAIA one doesn't count, even though UWW was in the conference, too?).

[BoBo]

As a matter of fact, bp did only mention RF and LX, but adding EC wasn't a stretch on my part. A couple 1 hit wonder years doesn't place EC in the national power category. Neither won anything on a national level. I think the '98 Blugolds did make it to the national semi-final, but was also a 3 loss team.

UWL on the other hand was the gold standard for a long time. For most of our lifetimes, there have been various quality teams all around the conference on a 1 or 2 year basis, but La Crosse as been the program to emulate over the long haul. Their recent troubles have been perplexing. Roster limits and the end of redshirting, which have preventing them from stockpiling talent like they use to do, may be having a profound effect on that program. They haven't adapted to the new landscape very well, IMO.

UWW has won 2 national titles, in a 3 year period - 5 consecutive trips to the Stagg Bowl.

I think when we say La Crosse isn't a national power, what is meant is that they have been dropped from that level due to the last few seasons. But, in my book, they will always be a force to be reckoned with. IMO, the Eagles will make it back before any of the others get there. With their new AD on the job now for about a week and with a background in football, I'd expect some serious effort to get back to the glory days of the past.

[bleedpurple]

Comments from posters here about UWL not being a national power are just plain silly. Pull up the WIAC page and see who dominated the conference from 1970-2005; that's about a 35-year heyday, if you ask me...
I'm sure the players on those teams would have loved to play the more recent Warhawks teams...

Last time I checked, UWL also won two NCAA titles in a five-year period; but UWL did it in four, from 1992-95...

And for those who are keeping score at home, UWL still leads in the trophy case hardware, three to two... (But I guess an NAIA one doesn't count, even though UWW was in the conference, too?).

I might have missed it, but I did not read any posts that said UW-L was never a national power. I certainly never said that. I only "speculated" that their best teams were not as good as UW-W is right now. Debatable from different perspectives to be sure, but not exactly far fetched given UW-W's current run of success. The point  was in response to a question as to whether UW-W's current domination of the WIAC could have been "as simple as" the downfall of the western wisconsin programs due to Minnesota D2 recruiting, not just a random shot out of nowhere.