FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[usee]

With the WIAC and CCIW so close in proximity, it still bothers me that they have not tried to schedule these non-conference games betweent the two conferences to save travel and money.   I hate the idea of playing another conference team twice in a year.   

Don't expect to see this change much going forward. I am on record as wanting the cciw coaches to schedule more stringently, including wiac opponents. However, in the preseason coaches chat last year Tim Rucks from Carthage said he would never schedule a wiac team as Carthage has a policy not to schedule a "public" school vs a private school. Several other coaches agreed with this including Barnes from Augie and Millikin's coach. I think this is a major copout but the reality is North Central missed the playoffs last year after losing to Ohio Northern and going 7-2. If they had played Coe or Augsburg they would have been in at 9-1. 

Am I the only one that finds it a little weak and more than a little ironic that CCIW schools would avoid public schools to help them gain access to a tournament in which they have to play them?  Sounds a little bit like a self-imposed ceiling to me.  Maybe they should just form a D3 NIT and then Hickory could claim some sort of title every year!

Or, another idea: they could do what it takes to overcome obstacles instead of using them as an excuse. After all, I would presume that is what they are coaching their athletes to do.  Looking at history, there are private schools that have been downright dominant (see St. Johns, Mt. Union, Linfield, and more). Just a guess, but I'm thinking dominance arises more out of a "no fear" attitude than careful and selective scheduling.

Hats off to North Central. I hope they keep scheduling WIAC and keep beating Carthage and Co 43-8.

Again, I am in your camp as far as scheduling goes and I applaud North Central (barely) for adding UWEC this year. But on the other  side of it the CCIW has better scheduling options than most of the WIAC due to geography and demographics. So I think the CCIW coaches would much rather try and beat a WIAC school once in November than to have to try and do it twice (September and November) if they are lucky enough. Obviously the WIAC guys are not enamored of playing each other twice so I don't think CCIW coaches should be eager either. Part of this problem is the system and how its set up. There is no reward for playing in a tough conference AND playing a tough non conference schedule. (see North Central last year, Willamette this year, etc).

The benefit is home field advantage in the playoffs. Get wins over good region teams and you'll get seeded higher than you normally would. I'm sure IWU would have loved to have another home game or two before it had to go to UWW.

And if IWU had beaten Millikin, a conference foe who finished 7th in the CCIW, in front of IWU's homecoming crowd, they would have been seeded 2nd in the region and wouldn't have faced UWW until the regional final. Has nothing to do with scheduling in the non conference. An undefeated CCIW team will almost always be no worse than a 2 seed in the playoffs.

In fact in 2008, North Central was the 1 seed in the North as they moved Mt Union east and kept UWW west. Now they also beat ONU in Ohio that year which may be why they got the 1 seed instead of the 2! Its a 2 edged sword for sure.

[Pat Coleman]

"Offense
QB Matt Blanchard, Jr., UW-Whitewater
Blanchard completed 24 of 30 passes for 337 yards with three touchdowns and no interceptions en route to a 49-17 win at UW-Platteville. Blanchard scored the game's first points on a 7-yard touchdown run in the first quarter."


Pat,
Minor point of correction....Blanchard didn't score the "game's first points."  Those were scored by Platteville.  He did score the WARHAWKS' first points however.  That is probably what you meant to say. 

Actually, I just copied and pasted from the UWW nomination but I'll make the change.

[WarhawkDad]

We actually did have this discussion some months ago. I called the tailgate spot next to footballfan413. 

I wouldn't do it at Camp Randall however. I'd rotate it around the WIAC stadiums over the years.

I don't know, BDB.  With only one spot on either side of me, we may have to hold a lottery.   

BTW, test came back negative last week!  Clean bill of health, (so far) for a certain ex-Warhawk linebacker!!!!   

Awesome !   See you Saturday tailgating!

[WarhawkDad]

With the WIAC and CCIW so close in proximity, it still bothers me that they have not tried to schedule these non-conference games betweent the two conferences to save travel and money.   I hate the idea of playing another conference team twice in a year.  

Don't expect to see this change much going forward. I am on record as wanting the cciw coaches to schedule more stringently, including wiac opponents. However, in the preseason coaches chat last year Tim Rucks from Carthage said he would never schedule a wiac team as Carthage has a policy not to schedule a "public" school vs a private school. Several other coaches agreed with this including Barnes from Augie and Millikin's coach. I think this is a major copout but the reality is North Central missed the playoffs last year after losing to Ohio Northern and going 7-2. If they had played Coe or Augsburg they would have been in at 9-1.  

Am I the only one that finds it a little weak and more than a little ironic that CCIW schools would avoid public schools to help them gain access to a tournament in which they have to play them?  Sounds a little bit like a self-imposed ceiling to me.  Maybe they should just form a D3 NIT and then Hickory could claim some sort of title every year!

Or, another idea: they could do what it takes to overcome obstacles instead of using them as an excuse. After all, I would presume that is what they are coaching their athletes to do.  Looking at history, there are private schools that have been downright dominant (see St. Johns, Mt. Union, Linfield, and more). Just a guess, but I'm thinking dominance arises more out of a "no fear" attitude than careful and selective scheduling.

Hats off to North Central. I hope they keep scheduling WIAC and keep beating Carthage and Co 43-8.

Again, I am in your camp as far as scheduling goes and I applaud North Central (barely) for adding UWEC this year. But on the other  side of it the CCIW has better scheduling options than most of the WIAC due to geography and demographics. So I think the CCIW coaches would much rather try and beat a WIAC school once in November than to have to try and do it twice (September and November) if they are lucky enough. Obviously the WIAC guys are not enamored of playing each other twice so I don't think CCIW coaches should be eager either. Part of this problem is the system and how its set up. There is no reward for playing in a tough conference AND playing a tough non conference schedule. (see North Central last year, Willamette this year, etc).

This whole subject is frustrating.  When the privates recruit, the throw money around like hubcaps, which publics can not do.  Heck, we used to call Carthage - Fremd North because so many from our local high school team went there partially due to financial assistance.  I agree with bleedpurple, the better the competition you play, the better you program becomes.

[WarhawkDad]

I would also add that I think North Central has taken a risk to schedule the way they have and the reward is they may be separating themselves from the rest of the CCIW for a while ala UWW in the WIAC and Mt Union in the OAC. They are clearly loading up with more and better players and are consistently playing at a high level. You don't dominate a team like UWEC unless you are pretty good up front on both sides of the ball. This hasn't translated into deep playoff runs but I believe that will come quickly. I haven't seen them play this year yet but I know they have the depth and personnel to make a deep playoff run if their qb situation remains stable and productive. I don't see them losing in conference this season.

When my son and I met with Thorne, the head coach, he espoused a theory that for every 10 kids he had in camp, that equated to a win.  His goal was 150 - to equal 15 wins and a National Championship.   Did not reasonate well with my son, obviously.  Interesting thing was the huge number of lineman he had on the roster.  Obviously paying off with depth now.

[Just Bill]

As has been hashed and re-hashed many times here, for every perceived advantage that a public school has, one can list an equal perceived advantage that a private school has.  Nobody (D-I, D-II, D-III, NAIA, pros) plays with an absolutely level slate, because it's impossible to achieve.  I don't understand the Carthage line of thinking, either.

[HScoach]

As a complete outsider with no dog in this fight, I have to agree with Usee on the scheduling issue between the CCIW and WIAC.  While the WIAC teams would love to play the a CCIW foe instead of one of their own twice, what benefit is there for the CCIW teams?  Their conference is already very strong, they have other scheduling options, and if they lose in non-conference play they have no room for error in conference. 

While we all love to see these cross-conference games in the early season between nationally prominent teams, there is little benefit to those teams if they already play in a good conference.    Where it makes the most sense to schedule a really tough opener is for someone like a Wittenberg or W&J that plays in a weak conference.  They need the test to prepare them for a playoff run and to validate their seeding.  IMHO, someone playing the WIAC, CCIW, OAC (and probably the ASC too) doesn't need a nationally ranked early season test to prove themselves.  If anyone of them goes 10-0, they're easily a 1 or 2 seed.  And 9-1 gets gets them a Pool C bid 99.9% of the time. 

I admire Hardin-Simmons' scheduling of Whitworth and Willamette, but if they had dropped either of those games they'd be screwed right now after losing to MHB.   Just like NCC was against ONU that Usee mentioned.

If the NCAA selection committee put more weight into what the teams are capable of (though I don't know you'd do that in D3) instead of looking at pure numbers, the penalty of playing & loosing a really tough opener would be lessened.  Instead you have them selecting/seeding teams based on number of in-region losses and a bogus strength of schedule number.  The SOS # is a helpful aid, but the number is too subjective to the number of teams in a conference (OAC plays only 1 non-league game and therefore has little ability to pad the SOS).  Plus there is a huge variability from one conference to another.  A 8-2 team from the WIAC/OAC is almost always better than a 9-1 team playing the NCAC, NEFC or MIAA, though their numbers might not show it. 

Given the current NCAA selection system of selecting/seeding teams primarily based on the number of wins, not the actually strength of those wins, the incentive to really step up the competition for a team already playing in a strong conference is limited.   I think we all agree that playing a really tough non-conference schedule will help prepare you for what you'll see in the playoffs, but for 99% of the teams out there the primary goal is QUALIFYING for the playoffs.  Winning a championship is only realized after qualifying. 

UWW, MTU and a few others have have risen to the level of assuming that they're already in and therefore the focus shifts to preparing for a legit title run, but I think the teams that honestly fall into the category number less than 10.  Not just teams talking & hoping, but honestly recruiting, game planning, scouting, preparing to be playing in weeks 14 and 15.  Whitewater, Mount Union, Mary Hardin Baylor, and who else?  Maybe Wesley of late?  Rowan in the late 90's?  La Crosse in the early/mid-90's.  Those teams know they are in and are preparing right now for who they might/will see in the playoffs.  The standard coach-speak says "we take them one game at a time", but I guarantee you the UWW and MTU coaching staffs have spent more time thinking and scheming for each other than they have most of their first 4 opponents.   Especially in summer practices. 

[usee]

Well said HSC, as usual. Another example of your point about the teams from strong conferences is Wheaton's 2008 squad. They were the last team in the playoffs as a pool C at 8-2 and went on the road to beat Wabash (NCAC Champ), Trine (MIAA champ) and Franklin(HCAC Champ) and make it to the quarterfinals against Mount where they got trounced. Obviously there are the storied examples of JCU going east and meeting Mt in semi's, etc.

[02 Warhawk]

HS makes some good points...but if NCC takes care of business in their conference, then what happens during their nonconference games is irrelivant (expect, possibly what seed you'll end up getting.)

never-the-less your point is well taken...  .

[WarhawkDad]

As a complete outsider with no dog in this fight, I have to agree with Usee on the scheduling issue between the CCIW and WIAC.  While the WIAC teams would love to play the a CCIW foe instead of one of their own twice, what benefit is there for the CCIW teams?  Their conference is already very strong, they have other scheduling options, and if they lose in non-conference play they have no room for error in conference. 

While we all love to see these cross-conference games in the early season between nationally prominent teams, there is little benefit to those teams if they already play in a good conference.    Where it makes the most sense to schedule a really tough opener is for someone like a Wittenberg or W&J that plays in a weak conference.  They need the test to prepare them for a playoff run and to validate their seeding.  IMHO, someone playing the WIAC, CCIW, OAC (and probably the ASC too) doesn't need a nationally ranked early season test to prove themselves.  If anyone of them goes 10-0, they're easily a 1 or 2 seed.  And 9-1 gets gets them a Pool C bid 99.9% of the time. 

I admire Hardin-Simmons' scheduling of Whitworth and Willamette, but if they had dropped either of those games they'd be screwed right now after losing to MHB.   Just like NCC was against ONU that Usee mentioned.

If the NCAA selection committee put more weight into what the teams are capable of (though I don't know you'd do that in D3) instead of looking at pure numbers, the penalty of playing & loosing a really tough opener would be lessened.  Instead you have them selecting/seeding teams based on number of in-region losses and a bogus strength of schedule number.  The SOS # is a helpful aid, but the number is too subjective to the number of teams in a conference (OAC plays only 1 non-league game and therefore has little ability to pad the SOS).  Plus there is a huge variability from one conference to another.  A 8-2 team from the WIAC/OAC is almost always better than a 9-1 team playing the NCAC, NEFC or MIAA, though their numbers might not show it. 

Given the current NCAA selection system of selecting/seeding teams primarily based on the number of wins, not the actually strength of those wins, the incentive to really step up the competition for a team already playing in a strong conference is limited.   I think we all agree that playing a really tough non-conference schedule will help prepare you for what you'll see in the playoffs, but for 99% of the teams out there the primary goal is QUALIFYING for the playoffs.  Winning a championship is only realized after qualifying. 

UWW, MTU and a few others have have risen to the level of assuming that they're already in and therefore the focus shifts to preparing for a legit title run, but I think the teams that honestly fall into the category number less than 10.  Not just teams talking & hoping, but honestly recruiting, game planning, scouting, preparing to be playing in weeks 14 and 15.  Whitewater, Mount Union, Mary Hardin Baylor, and who else?  Maybe Wesley of late?  Rowan in the late 90's?  La Crosse in the early/mid-90's.  Those teams know they are in and are preparing right now for who they might/will see in the playoffs.  The standard coach-speak says "we take them one game at a time", but I guarantee you the UWW and MTU coaching staffs have spent more time thinking and scheming for each other than they have most of their first 4 opponents.   Especially in summer practices. 

Excellent post HSCoach, I understand the points you are making.  I guess that it is just the competitor in me that would like to see those games since my son was recruited by several of the CCIW schools and chose the WIAC instead.   

[Just Bill]

HS makes some good points...but if NCC takes care of business in their conference, then what happens during their nonconference games is irrelivant (expect, possibly what seed you'll end up getting.)

never-the-less your point is well taken...  .

Sure, but why do the trapeze act without a net, when you get the same reward for doing it with a net?

[WarhawkDad]

HS makes some good points...but if NCC takes care of business in their conference, then what happens during their nonconference games is irrelivant (expect, possibly what seed you'll end up getting.)

never-the-less your point is well taken...  .

Sure, but why do the trapeze act without a net, when you get the same reward for doing it with a net?

LOL, a conservative and thoughtful strategy, but probably depends upon where you as the coach believe your team is in the process of improvement.  Scheduling a top ten team might make sense if you believe you can break the top 25, but potentially not have a good enough record to actually make the playoffs.

[Beyond Prime]

With the way that the playoff teams are selected, it makes sense why they may shy away from scheduling some teams. At the same time, that can be kind of short sighted. After all, if your only goal is to make the playoffs, then you are unlikely to win a championship.

So I guess I see it as what are your goals?

1) Schedule and play to make the playoffs?
2) Schedule and play to become the best and maybe win a championship?

[02 Warhawk]

With the way that the playoff teams are selected, it makes sense why they may shy away from scheduling some teams. At the same time, that can be kind of short sighted. After all, if your only goal is to make the playoffs, then you are unlikely to win a championship.

So I guess I see it as what are your goals?

1) Schedule and play to make the playoffs?
2) Schedule and play to become the best and maybe win a championship?

Not sure that playing powerhouse teams each season (for non-conference games) gets you THAT much closer to the Stagg Bowl...

I know that's what happen to whitewater....but there were more important factors on why Whitewater came to power, IMHO.

[UDubDub_Boiler]

Do we(UWW/WIAC teams) ever play teams in the Midwest Conference (Like St. Norberts or Ripon)?  I was just curious...

Go Warhawks this weekend!  Ill be there at 9am in the parking lot