FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mugsy]

Emma- you are probably right. But I can tell you Evan jones is every bit as good a qb as Ray and watt and NCC made him look silly. And dion Wilson, Scottie williams, and donley are all pretty good rbis that got nothing vs NCC. I don't think any of those rbs are better than  coppage but it's not the grand canyon separating them.    

Not apples to apples, but these same arguments (Wheaton's D against talented CCIW runners) were being used last week to explain how effective Wheaton's D was going to be against Bethel's running game. I'd say Flannery did ok on Saturday. We'll see how Coppage does, but by weeks end, my guess is that we'll be adjusting our perceptions more about the strength of NCC's D (and by extension the CCIW's running backs) than we will be about the skill level of Coppage. FWIW.

Not to bring up a topic from last week that has no bearing on this weeks games, but in fairness the comparison of Wheaton's run D against other nationally ranked and talented RB's was more to highlight how they "might" stack up against Bethel's vaunted rushing attack.  It was one of the "keys to the game" from my perspective.  

I did not take a definitive stance that Wheaton would shutdown Flannery and Bethel.  I did mention that I had concerns that Bethel's Oline was superior to any Wheaton had faced (in terms of run blocking).  Obviously Wheaton did not stop Flannery enough (but the key play was the 27 yard throw back to him, not a long or back-breaking, signifcant run).  Bethel's line had a very solid day.

[BoredatWork56]

emma17- I am happy to match credentials. I have seen Evan Jones play over the past 2 years. He is the CCIW offensive player of the year this year and made a strong case for it last year. In the game against NCC you saw, he threw for 287 yds and a TD while being sacked 8 times and hit probably 15 more. For his career he threw for over 6,500 yds and 59 TD's while completing 64% of his passes.

I agree with you that Franklin's offense this year is better than Carthage's (despite CC win over FC). Ray has a significantly better supporting cast than Jones particularly in the offensive line. Put Jones in FC's offense and you will see similar numbers. Put Ray in Carthage's offense and he may not finish the year. I am comfortable saying Jones, as a 3 yr starter,  is as good as Ray individually.

USee,

If you are going to throw out some stats to compare players, you, I and everyone else knows that stats can be very misleading.  Stats are based so much on style of play, playing time, supporting cast, ect...  To me, the truest way to determine the best is wins and losses.  Then again, all the other factors and players go to wins and losses more than an individual and his stats.

But as long as we are using the stats as a comparison, I will throw Watt's (Trine) stat line up against anyones. And my credentials on this aren't seeing a for game or two, or even a whole season.  It is as a former teammate who saw him every day for two seasons.

7200+ yards passing, 74 TD, 25 INT, 61% completion
1300+ yards rushing, 17 TD
3 year record as starter 31-4 (29-1 regular season record)
2 time MIAA Offensive POTY

Just comparing stats - better than Ray, better than Jones.  In reality, who is the best?  who knows?  I guess thats why there will forever be arguments about sport!

[usee]

BoredatWork--I never said Evan Jones was better, I said he is every bit as good. I have seen Watt in person and on video. He is a playmaker. And in context, I was giving random stats (sarcastically) to parody our friends on here that like to pick out random stats (like how a team does over 15 plays, in the second quarter, at the start of a season, etc) to support whatever thesis they come up with to pass the time.

But since you brought it up I will highlight the one time Evan Jones and Eric Watt had a common opponent in 2008:

V Wheaton

Carthage: L 24-51
Evan Jones 26-49-2, 2 TD's, 318 yds, 53% completion, 3 sacks

Trine: L 0-14
Eric Watt 20-48-1, 0 TD's, 278 yds, 42% completion, 6 sacks

[footballfan413]

^

the Crusaders had a special play called the, "Ginger Package."  

Too bad for them it never worked!!  

I thought the "Ginger Package" was a reference to Gilligan's Island.

Ginger had a package?  Yikes.  

Good thing I always liked Mary Ann better.

Oh my God.........look what I started.  What a bunch of old guys!  It's a South Park reference, people!!!                                  SOUTH PARK!  

^

the Crusaders had a special play called the, "Ginger Package."  

Too bad for them it never worked!!  

I thought the "Ginger Package" was a reference to Gilligan's Island.

LOL Only if you are over 50!  

I loved her...................................................

[hazzben]

Not apples to apples, but these same arguments (Wheaton's D against talented CCIW runners) were being used last week to explain how effective Wheaton's D was going to be against Bethel's running game. I'd say Flannery did ok on Saturday. We'll see how Coppage does, but by weeks end, my guess is that we'll be adjusting our perceptions more about the strength of NCC's D (and by extension the CCIW's running backs) than we will be about the skill level of Coppage. FWIW.

Not to bring up a topic from last week that has no bearing on this weeks games, but in fairness the comparison of Wheaton's run D against other nationally ranked and talented RB's was more to highlight how they "might" stack up against Bethel's vaunted rushing attack.  It was one of the "keys to the game" from my perspective.  

I did not take a definitive stance that Wheaton would shutdown Flannery and Bethel.  I did mention that I had concerns that Bethel's Oline was superior to any Wheaton had faced (in terms of run blocking).  Obviously Wheaton did not stop Flannery enough (but the key play was the 27 yard throw back to him, not a long or back-breaking, signifcant run).  Bethel's line had a very solid day.

@Mugsy. Fair point my friend. You certainly didn't say Wheaton would shut down Bethel. I spoke to strongly there. FWIW, Bethel's O-Line played pretty well on the run, they were below average in the passing game on Saturday. Not our best showing, and Wheaton's D-Line play was a big part of the latter, no question.

Hazzbeen- Wheaton held Flannery to almost 2 yds per carry less than his average. He had 30 carries for goodness sakes. Look at what Coppage did with his 30+ carries. Bethel ran 30 more plays than Wheaton and scored 5 more points. If you had told me going int that Bethel would have 30 more plays I would have said Bethel wins by 21+. Wheaton defended half a game more plays than Bethel and still held Bethel to 3.8 yds per play. That's pretty good defense no matter how you slice it. Better than anyone else, including UST, has played Bethel. The problem for Wheaton last Saturday was their offense, not the defense.

And don't be putting words in my mouth about Coppage. He may be the best RB in the country. All I did was say there are some other good running backs out there, which is true. I would rather face Flannery than I would Coppage if you want the honest truth.

the 30 more plays is just classic Bethel fb this year. Ground and pound, control the clock, wear a D down, 3 and outs for the opponents, etc. I think Wheaton's D did play well Saturday, but 30 carries for 141 yds (4.7 ypc) against a strong run D is a very good day, especially in the playoffs. I don't want it to seem I'm slighting Wheaton's D. Hats off to you for holding Logan to 2 yds below his season ypc average. But you've got to give props to Logan and the BU O-Line sustaining those long drives, etc. And fwiw, 30 carries against Wheaton's D is not the same was 38 carries against Trine's D. If you'd take Coppage over Flannery, I'd also take Wheaton's D over Trine's.

IMHO Flannery is a fine RB, but doesn't have near the home run ability of Coppage.    Both are good RB's, but their overall ability is quite different.

I won't disagree with you on Flannery v. Coppage's home run threat. Coppage stands alone in that regard. But have you seen Logan play since his freshman year? I wasn't trying to take anything away from Coppage in my original post. Rather making the point that Elite CCIW defensive performances against 'elite' CCIW running backs might not be all that telling come playoff time.

I haven't seen Coppage live. Just bits and pieces of clips and the stat lines that roll across the screen. He's an elite talent. Period. But I do think he's also playing behind an O-line that is better/more experienced than Bethel's (although I think Bethel's is very good), playing in an offense that is more diversified and has more play-makers on the edge. Does that mean Flannery is better than Coppage, not at all. But we also don't know what Flannery would look like with that offensive line and in that offense. Wheaton stacked 8 in the box, played man coverage on the edge and said, 'no way does Flannery beat us.' It almost worked. They couldn't do that against UWW's offense and Trine and Franklin couldn't either. They had to at least respect the pass and receiving threat UWW had, which will only be greater with Blanchard back. I wish I could say Wheaton had to respect our passing game Saturday, but they didn't. Fred Jackson for Coe didn't appear as good as Dan Pugh for Mt. Union, but I'd say Freddie is a pretty good player. Again, not saying Flannery is better than Coppage, but he's among the best in DIII and the previous example bears out that the talent around a player does effect things.

Did any of that rambling make sense? Sorry for dragging the WIAC board into a CCIW/MIAC debate, but I think it had some sort of relevance for this board at some point in the discussion 

Looking forward to Saturday and finding out just how NCC's D stacks up against UWW, Coppage, et. al.

[D O.C.]

If I must see a 6th straight match-up in the Stagg Bowl, please make it interesting and arrange it so each team wears their their black pants, purple jerseys, and purple helmets.
Staring at the pictures accompanying today's front page articles is confusing enough.

[02 Warhawk]

It's only wednesday, and I'm already burt out from reading all these stats. 

Conclusion:
Both teams are really good.

It should be a good one Saturday, I think we can all agree on that.

Looking back UWW had one of the best 5+ year runs in DIII history...Saturday isn't going to change that. I personally hope they keep the good times rolling, b/c it's been a helluva ride so far. 

[warhawkguard]

Seeing that St. Thomas beat Bethel once this year, is there a sense out there that this time Bethel is out for blood? There is always something to be said for getting a second chance at a team that beat you if it was close. Just think if the Badgers could get Minchigan State one more time this year what would happen.....

This weekend will be a hellova game. This is easily the toughest test this year for the Hawks. I will not talk smack until the torney is over. There are way too many good teams left. One way or another, somebody will be playing Mt. Union in the end I bet.

[emma17]

USee,
Those weren't your credentials.  If you're matching credentials, then you have to tell me how many times you've seen Franklin and Trine, not just Carthage.  Seems to me you'd have a stronger foundation for your opinion if you actually saw the three quarterbacks/teams you are comparing.  

[usee]

I have seen Franklin 3x and Trine 3x. Carthage probably 6x. combination live and on video. Franklin/Trine 1x each live and other 2 on video. Carthage live 3x and at least 3x on video. Do I pass the test?? 

[Barber Greene]

Former Warhawk OC Zebrowski finding success at Northern Illinois as QB coach.  NIU playing in MAC championship game on Friday and going to a bowl game.  NIU QB Chandler Harnish 1st team all-MAC this year.

http://northernstar.info/sports/news/article_57b6ad18-fcee-11df-8eb3-0017a4a78c22.html

(Disclaimer: I'm a season ticket holder at NIU  )

[02 Warhawk]

Former Warhawk OC Zebrowski finding success at Northern Illinois as QB coach.  NIU playing in MAC championship game on Friday and going to a bowl game.  NIU QB Chandler Harnish 1st team all-MAC this year.

http://northernstar.info/sports/news/article_57b6ad18-fcee-11df-8eb3-0017a4a78c22.html

(Disclaimer: I'm a season ticket holder at NIU  )

So what you're saying is UWW will win Saturday......?

[emma17]

USee,
That's at least a better answer when you claim to be matching first hand knowledge credentials.
Curious, did you see Franklin and Trine live this year? 

[Mugsy]

IMHO Flannery is a fine RB, but doesn't have near the home run ability of Coppage.    Both are good RB's, but their overall ability is quite different.

I haven't seen Coppage play, but from what I've read from people whose opinions I trust, he likely has more ability than Flannery.

That said I take either one in a heartbeat.   When you think about the fact that the "2nd RB" in this thread has over 5000 yards rushing in his college career in a very tough conference, you are talking about top RB's in all of D3.

[Barber Greene]

Former Warhawk OC Zebrowski finding success at Northern Illinois as QB coach.  NIU playing in MAC championship game on Friday and going to a bowl game.  NIU QB Chandler Harnish 1st team all-MAC this year.

http://northernstar.info/sports/news/article_57b6ad18-fcee-11df-8eb3-0017a4a78c22.html

(Disclaimer: I'm a season ticket holder at NIU  )

So what you're saying is UWW will win Saturday......?

Obviously...I guarantee it