FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[02 Warhawk]

I'm new to the board here folks and I must say I am not surprised about the abundance of Warhawk fans on here.  The main discussion seems to be centering around the UWO v UWW game this week. Here's my 2 cents.  Whether or not Wara is able to go will greatly change the style of offense the Titans run.  UWO has adapted a flexbone or Wing T or whatever you want to call it, triple-option/veer offense to establish some sort of running game.  Back-up QB Nick Olla ran that system in high school and is most familiar with it, that's not to say the guy catch pitch it around a little bit but needless to say he's no Nate Wara.  Oshkosh's defense is playing the best it's played since 2008.  It completely shut down UWP but struggled against Joel Sweeney in the 1st half against UWEC.  So they'll probably struggle to stop Coppage, but who doesn't.  While I have not seen nearly the amount of trick plays this season from UWO the use of 2 completely different offenses kind of replaces that portion of the UWO attack. All that being said UWW has great players all around the field and should win the ball game.  This game is probably a 17 point win for UWW with a healthy Wara and a 24 point win without him.  The idea to me that UWW will win by 5 touchdowns is a little over the top.  Anything 2 TDs or closer to me is a statement by UWO.

Welcome to the boards. I might have to agree with the 17-point win. However, I don't see UWW carrying a two-TD lead the entire game. I anticipate the game going back and forth, with neither team leading by more than a touchdown, for at least three quarters. Then the Warhawks (hopefully) will pull away with a late turnover followed by a touchdown.

Either way I'm going to be wreck the entire game 

[Sakman 1111]

I am with BW I worry each week......I worried at Lakeland when some of the starters rested and I complained in the stands then we won by 75....I will worry this week about our young OLine, pass defense, and the law of averages but if we pound the rock the way we can and Blanchard stays solid the Warhawks are number one....POUND THE ROCK and Monkey Stomp the Titans!!!!!......

[emma17]

If I put on my football purest hat I would agree that teams that run the "trick play" need to do so in order to makeup for a deficiency they have.
If I take that hat off, however, so that I fit in with what the game really looks like today, then I have to be honest about this "trick play" discussion.   

In today's game, I think the lines are way, way blurred anymore.  How do you explain the Wildcat?  How many teams run the Spread Option today?  It seems almost every team (except UWW).  Either before the snap or at the snap an offensive player runs past the QB, who has the option to give or keep, oftentimes "tricking" the defense and getting them to over-commit.  Heck, you can then add the option in on the same play, with another back following in pitch relation as the QB takes the ball down the line and sometimes "tricks" the defender into a fake pitch. 

Is the play action (run often by UWW) not a form of "trick" play?  Are we not decieving the LB's and safeties to step up on the run fake so we can freeze them and get around/past them? 

Isn't this exactly what a "traditional trick" 'play is designed to do- freeze the defense/confuse the defense to gain an advantage for the offense?   A reverse makes an overaggressive defense pay the price for overpursuing.  A halfback option pass makes a UWW corner pay the price for over-committing to stop the run.  A double or triple pass also makes the defense pay for over-pursuit.

I just don't that a "trick" play is a "trick" play anymore.  Maybe the hook and ladder is still a trick play.  Maybe the play where the guy pretends he's running off the field and the coach is yelling at him to "get back on the field, get back on the field" and all of a sudden the ball gets snapped is still a trick play. 

The other stuff- I tend to think it's offensive coordinators attacking the strength/weakness of an opponent to gain advantage on them- and doesn't every team do that?   

[emma17]

Wara "healthy" = UWW by 3 touchdowns

Wara not playing = UWW by 5 touchdowns

Raider 68 likes to give the opposition the utmost respect, almost to the point of over-valuating their abilities.  If UWO makes it a game, it means that UWW is having a bad, turnover laden, football game.

If that's Raider 68's MO, than I'd argue your MO tends in the total opposite direction. From what I've seen the last 6 years or so, you give Mount's opponents little respect. I understand being confident, and UWW and Mount have plenty to be confident about! But sometimes I get the feeling you expect each team to bow at the Mount altar before taking the field. 

I based my opinion regarding the UWW vs. UWO game on the following two things.

1.  Mount played what I would consider a solid "B" game against UWO, and was not challenged in the second half.2.  I think UWW is better overall than Mount.

Based on that input, I make UWW a 3-5 touchdown favorite. 

As for giving opponents respect, I don't agree with you, but of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Let's take your favorite team for instance.  I am sure you feel I never gave Bethel respect the two times Mount played them in the play-offs.  I will say that may even be true, because quite honestly a team that can't throw the ball, and doesn't have a kicker, is not going to challenge Mount in a play-off game. 

I have given respect to UWW's teams over these past six years, especially the last two or three.  They have earned that respect by consistently matching Mount in the Stagg Bowl, and beating them the last 3 out of 4 (the BASTAGES!).   

Fact Check Alert!  This is not a factual statement in my opinion and I've made it my personal mission to get people to actually comment on the MT-Oshkosh game as it really happened:

In the 3rd Quarter (every coach wants his team to come out with a strong opening drive after the half):
Mt Union's Drives:
4 Plays and then punt
3 Plays and then punt
7 Plays and then punt
Oshkosh Scores, making it 34-17 (not blowout material in this Titan supporter's eyes).
7 Plays and then punt (couldn't answer the Oshkosh TD- which means Oshkosh had the BALL AGAIN with a chance to bring it to 34-24). 
Mt then scored it's lone 2nd half touchdown with 7:31 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.

I'm not arguing your opinion on the spread of 3-5 TD's- I just want the facts to be presented. 

[ThunderHead]

Emma,

That was a well thought out post, and I completely agree.

I think we all agree that as a coach, your goal is to put your team in the best position to win the game. That often happens by creating match-ups across the field that favor you, regardless of if that's getting your 6'6 WR on a 5'8'' DB in isolation through pre-snap motion that takes the high safety away from the boundary, or if that's bringing more guys to the Point of Attack using pulling guards or a pulling center. The reality is you're creating an advantage, where in a "head up" situation you might lose the battle.

We all know the entire idea of "window dressing" a play pre-snap is often to confuse people, and invite a missed read. Even defensively they do all kinds of "pre-snap trickeration" within their formations to confuse the quarterback.

While the "i got the wrong ball" play maybe be an obvious trick play, I think even that call is a result of something some coach seen on film, a tendency by the other team that they're waiting to expose at the correct time.

So while I know many people think "trick" plays are the result of moves by a coaching staff that thinks it can't measure up, the reality is IMO that at the end of the day, I'd say football would be fairly boring if it was "three yards and a could of dust" all the time.

[badgerwarhawk]

I don't consider the option play a trick because the quarterback might fake a lateral and keep the ball or he might lateral the ball at the last possible second.  Nor do I think of the wildcat or spread option as trick plays.  A trick play is when the center hikes the ball to the quarterback who then huddles with two other offensive players until one of them emerges with the ball.  They don't necessarily tuck the ball under their jersey but that's a trick play.   

[WarhawkDad]

I don't consider the option play a trick because the quarterback might fake a lateral and keep the ball or he might lateral the ball at the last possible second.  Nor do I think of the wildcat or spread option as trick plays.  A trick play is when the center hikes the ball to the quarterback who then huddles with two other offensive players until one of them emerges with the ball.  They don't necessarily tuck the ball under their jersey but that's a trick play.

Or a good way to sneak booze into the movie theater!   

[WarhawkDad]

While I worry every week and certainly that is caused by badgerwarhawk's law of probability, I try to balance that with data, which I have discussed in earlier posts.   I also am comforted this week by the fact that for some reason this year UWW has played better on the road than at home.  It could be a function of competition, but I really think there are less distractions on the road.   In the 3 road games UWW has given up a total of 17 points.   The touchdown in LaCrosse was against 2nd and 3rd team defense at the end of the game, no points given up at Franklin and at River Falls, the touchdown was the result of a fumbled punt at our own 3 and the field goal hit the crossbar and was blown over by tornadic winds  . 

While the coaches prepare for constant improvement each week, this game has added importance because of the respective records.  There is no doubt that the athletes know the importance.  I expect the defense to come out and play great.  Our rush defense is giving up 67.2 yards a game.

Conversely Oshkosh is 4th in rushing defense giving up 138.3 yards per game.  In direct comparison, Taylor Edwards from River Falls rushed for 124 yards against Oshkosh and only 13 against UWW.   

So, I still think that UWW will work to stop the run and force UWO to pass.  If Wara can not play this limits UWO further.  On offense UWW will pound the rock, but has the pass efficiency and personel to go to the air when needed.

Again, just my two cents. 

WarhawkDad

P.S.   UWW has been know to work in some trick plays as well! 

[02 Warhawk]

Welcome, hope to see you hang around. 

Personally I think this weekend's game with UW-O could be a very close affair.  They're playing really well and have all the motivation in the world.  Not that we're playing badly and/or are unmotivated because that isn't the case.  It's that law of averages thing that causes me to worry.  But then I do that every Saturday so nothing new on that front.

Don't preach to the OAC about any law of averages.   

Conversely Oshkosh is 4th in rushing defense giving up 138.3 yards per game.  In direct comparison, Taylor Edwards from River Falls rushed for 124 yards against Oshkosh and only 13 against UWW.   

Not to sell Edwards short, but he actually netted one yard that game. 

[emma17]

Emma,

That was a well thought out post, and I completely agree.

I think we all agree that as a coach, your goal is to put your team in the best position to win the game. That often happens by creating match-ups across the field that favor you, regardless of if that's getting your 6'6 WR on a 5'8'' DB in isolation through pre-snap motion that takes the high safety away from the boundary, or if that's bringing more guys to the Point of Attack using pulling guards or a pulling center. The reality is you're creating an advantage, where in a "head up" situation you might lose the battle.

We all know the entire idea of "window dressing" a play pre-snap is often to confuse people, and invite a missed read. Even defensively they do all kinds of "pre-snap trickeration" within their formations to confuse the quarterback.

While the "i got the wrong ball" play maybe be an obvious trick play, I think even that call is a result of something some coach seen on film, a tendency by the other team that they're waiting to expose at the correct time.

So while I know many people think "trick" plays are the result of moves by a coaching staff that thinks it can't measure up, the reality is IMO that at the end of the day, I'd say football would be fairly boring if it was "three yards and a could of dust" all the time.

Good stuff Thunder- and I forgot about the word trickeration- dang it I would have liked to use it. 
Good luck to the Thunder this weekend.

[emma17]

I don't consider the option play a trick because the quarterback might fake a lateral and keep the ball or he might lateral the ball at the last possible second.  Nor do I think of the wildcat or spread option as trick plays.  A trick play is when the center hikes the ball to the quarterback who then huddles with two other offensive players until one of them emerges with the ball.  They don't necessarily tuck the ball under their jersey but that's a trick play.

Or a good way to sneak booze into the movie theater!   

did you do that too?

[BoBo]

I don't consider the option play a trick because the quarterback might fake a lateral and keep the ball or he might lateral the ball at the last possible second.  Nor do I think of the wildcat or spread option as trick plays.  A trick play is when the center hikes the ball to the quarterback who then huddles with two other offensive players until one of them emerges with the ball.  They don't necessarily tuck the ball under their jersey but that's a trick play.

Yes, Oshkosh's human shell game last year.  That was a tricky play with a lot of moving parts!! I recorded the game, but the streaming video was so poor, once the picture was bigger than a half inch square, it was so distorted I couldn't see anythng. And at a half inch, I still couldn't see anything!! Darn, that play deserved it's place on YouTube. One thing I remember, those plays only worked in the first quarter last year. Once the game was in control by UWW, Oshkosh didn't even try running another. 

[fredfalcon]

I wonder whether Oshkosh's option offense comes from the addition of John O'Grady, former Falcon coach, to their coaching ranks. O'Grady ran the wishbone at RF for years before he abandoned it about three years before he retired. I looked earlier on the Oshkosh site,  but could not find him listed as an assistant coach.

[WarhawkDad]

Please see my recent post about establishing a new "Top Ten Best Teams of the West Region".   Look under the thread similarily titled.

[fballfan]

I wonder whether Oshkosh's option offense comes from the addition of John O'Grady, former Falcon coach, to their coaching ranks. O'Grady ran the wishbone at RF for years before he abandoned it about three years before he retired. I looked earlier on the Oshkosh site,  but could not find him listed as an assistant coach.

Read below from an article in Eau Claire newspaper after the EC/Osh game:

"We got lucky there on the goal line at half," UW-Oshkosh coach Pat Cerroni said. "I think that was a momentum booster. That allowed us to stay with our game plan and adjust off it. That was big. That was probably the play of the game."

The Titans ran a lot of spread offense in the first half. But in the second half, they went almost exclusively to the option and had the Blugolds on their heels.

With quarterback Nate Wara directing the attack, UW-Oshkosh outgained UW-Eau Claire 228-101 after halftime. The Titans got a safety on the Blugolds' first offensive possession then fourth-quarter touchdown runs from Wara and Budiac.

The option is a new dimension for the Titans this season. Helping guide that offense is former UW-River Falls coach John O'Grady, who joined Cerroni's staff as assistant head coach this season.

"It's just, honestly, a perfect fit for us," Cerroni said. "This is what I envisioned it to be. It helped us out today a ton. We got the big run plays and kind of wore them out and just played WIAC football here at the end."