FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[emma17]

True, holding Erdmann to just one TD pass was huge. After watching the Wheaton game, the staff must have made it a priority to prevent the homerun ball...and they did exactly that. No quick strikes for touchdowns was big.

The 3 rushing tds SJU got could just as easily been TD passes, so I don't think Erdman having just 1 TD pass was that critical. I would say limiting Erdman from connecting on (or even trying that many) deep passes was more important than just the number of TD passes he threw. Just my 2 cents worth.

Agreed entirely-with both of your posts.

Kind of funny, the Milwaukee Journal quoted Coach Bullis: "We felt going into the game that we really wanted to run the ball in a manner that's fitting with our tradition," Bullis said. He said something similar at the halftime interview, and then UWW started the second half with pass, pass, pass, pass, punt.

Perhaps that's the genius of it all. The running game is a smokescreen and the real plan is to be as unpredictable and indefinably as possible.

Emma?  How many slants?  Enough?  Too many (is that possible)?  Not enough?

Hard to imagine too many slants. My coaching fantasy as OC - the first possession of the first game will be 100% slant routes- everyone in the stadium would know it was coming.

As an aside, UWW is running more slant routes these days- you saw a few last Saturday. 

[hazzben]

Two big differences between StJ/Erdman and NCC/Rutter. The first and main difference is NCC has a great running game and run the ball more than they pass it, in fact their HC is on record saying they are committed to that style. Second big difference is that Rutter gets rid of the ball much more quickly than Erdman most of the time. NCC is a system offense and Rutter has reads and gets rid of it. Much more difficult to get a rush on Rutter than Erdman in my opinion. You have to stop the run and cover on Rutter to get him frustrated, then you can start to get to him. I think UWW is versatile enough on defense to play that style which is why the key for me is UWW's offense vs the NCC defense. NCC has been a completely different defensive team since halftime of the Mt Union game. The Raiders scored only 14 second half points and NCC held both Del Val and Muhlenberg to 14 pts each.

UWW's Offensive line will be as good as anything NCC has seen all year. This game will be fun to watch if you are a hog fan. The trenches will dictate the action for sure. North Central has as good an OLine as any in the country and I think UWW's is on par with that. UWW's DLine showed their talent last Saturday and NCC's defensive front has been stingy against the run all season (#18).

I don't know that I totally agree with this assessment. Bethel had drastically more success getting pressure on Rutter than we ever did on Erdmann. Granted, this was only last year's version of NCC and we had Kilgore eating OT's for breakfast. But I'm not sure I'd concede that SJU's Oline was easier to penetrate than NCC's will be.

But you are dead correct in balance. SJU didn't run because they couldn't. It was more a conscious effort to put the ball in Erdmann's hands whenever possible, and lean on their RB's to do damage as receivers as well.

That said, I don't think there's any reason NCC can't win the Stagg. And yet I don't think I'd make them the favorite either. Straight pickem IMO.

Bethel won because they won the LOS. They limited NCC to 104 yds on 39 rushes (2.7 ypc) and Rutter was sacked 6 times, 3 in the second half when he had to pass to catch up. Bethel's DL was better than NCC's Oline, and Bethel also rushed for 184 yds against NCC. To me, that's the formula for beating these guys. If their run game is working, the LB's will be opening up those quick passing lanes and Rutter can get the ball out of his hands. If they are one dimensional, Rutter isn't as good. NCC rarely goes no backs like STJ did with Erdman much of the time.

Don't disagree with any of this. My point was just that Bethel had an easier time (relatively speaking) in the LOS battle with NCC than we did with SJU the last several years. My gut is that SJU's O/Dlines are every bit as good as NCC. It's transitive prognostication imagining how NCC will do vs. UWW compared to how SJU just did. So take it for what it's worth. But I think UWW is able to stop the NCC run. I think they can also defeat the NCC Oline on the pass rush like they did against SJU. But if Rutter can get the ball off quicker, it might be moot. NCC also has the better WR weapon. I also think SJU realized they weren't gonna beat UWW running the ball and went full Erdmann-ball intentionally. If NCC can indeed run effectively, they are in great shape. My gut says they are gonna have to lean on Rutter as never before.

The other piece is that I think NCC's defensive success against Mount was about getting stops in the secondary (which was incredibly impressive given Mount's weapons in the passing game). Mount's run game and Oline play won't be nearly as potent as UWW.

It's a fascinating match-up. My gut says UWW wins the line battle. And like SJU, it comes down to a few key throws late. Rutter is dangerous as can be in that type of situation.

[USee]

I don't think STJU Oline is nearly as good as NCC's Oline. Pass blocking, maybe. Look at the relative run games. Its not close and NCC runs the ball against everybody because, much like UWW, they are committed to it (38 carries for 85 yds vs Wheaton). But that's my opinion. Can UWW's Dline and front control the game? I am not sure. I saw what they did last Saturday (great ESPN announcers for that game BTW) and am impressed. Much bigger battle will be the NCC defense vs the UWW Offense. I think NCC is going to score 30+ because no one has really stopped them from doing that but NCC's defense is also a great matchup as they stop the run pretty well, even without big named playmakers on defense. Mt Union's run yards were almost all QB scrambles (cue Meyler!) and I think they are prone to get beat deep in the pass game on running downs.

Interestingly, prior to Mt Union, I can't remember a time when Rutter came from behind to win a game. They are very used to playing with a lead. I even mentioned to an NCC fan prior to Mt Union that Rutter didn't really have a signature win on his resume. That game changed everything and here we are.

[02 Warhawk]

I don't think STJU Oline is nearly as good as NCC's Oline. Pass blocking, maybe. Look at the relative run games. Its not close and NCC runs the ball against everybody because, much like UWW, they are committed to it (38 carries for 85 yds vs Wheaton). But that's my opinion. Can UWW's Dline and front control the game? I am not sure. I saw what they did last Saturday (great ESPN announcers for that game BTW) and am impressed. Much bigger battle will be the NCC defense vs the UWW Offense. I think NCC is going to score 30+ because no one has really stopped them from doing that but NCC's defense is also a great matchup as they stop the run pretty well, even without big named playmakers on defense. Mt Union's run yards were almost all QB scrambles (cue Meyler!) and I think they are prone to get beat deep in the pass game on running downs.

Interestingly, prior to Mt Union, I can't remember a time when Rutter came from behind to win a game. They are very used to playing with a lead. I even mentioned to an NCC fan prior to Mt Union that Rutter didn't really have a signature win on his resume. That game changed everything and here we are.

For Rutter's case, I hope NCC's pass blocking is better than SJU's.    Honestly though, since SJU was pretty much one dimensional, it was easy for UWW's defense to assume Erdmann will be dropping back most of the time. Since NCC is more balanced on offense, I don't think UWW will be pinning their ears back each play. They will have to be careful not to over pursue and protect against the run.

[emma17]

I'm not sure SJU's Oline didn't perform well. I watched their left tackle a bit and he was a wall. I give the UWW D line guys credit as they never let up on him, but he was tough.
My take on the line play was the UWW D linemen played a phenomenal game, as opposed to the SJU Oline being a problem. UWW guys were making incredibly athletic plays to get in the backfield. Maybe NCC's Oline guys will be more athletic- I don't know.

The challenge of Mr. Kamienski will be interesting to watch. I don't get the feeling UWW will go to man coverage on him as much.
This is where the good guys from UWW can draw on the experience of having to contend w a certain Mr. Garcon.

[USee]

It's also true that STJ threw it 50 times and had called runs about 14-18x. NCC has run the ball more than they passed in every game this playoffs, and every game all year but one (guess which one?). It's tough to sack a guy 7x when he throws it 35x and run it 40-45. The run game for NCC is an equalizer and they make you defend the whole field for sure.

[wally_wabash]

I'm not sure SJU's Oline didn't perform well. I watched their left tackle a bit and he was a wall. I give the UWW D line guys credit as they never let up on him, but he was tough.
My take on the line play was the UWW D linemen played a phenomenal game, as opposed to the SJU Oline being a problem. UWW guys were making incredibly athletic plays to get in the backfield. Maybe NCC's Oline guys will be more athletic- I don't know.

The challenge of Mr. Kamienski will be interesting to watch. I don't get the feeling UWW will go to man coverage on him as much.
This is where the good guys from UWW can draw on the experience of having to contend w a certain Mr. Garcon.

Garcon?  Current players were like 9 years old when UWW played against Garcon. 

[02 Warhawk]

I'm not sure SJU's Oline didn't perform well. I watched their left tackle a bit and he was a wall. I give the UWW D line guys credit as they never let up on him, but he was tough.
My take on the line play was the UWW D linemen played a phenomenal game, as opposed to the SJU Oline being a problem. UWW guys were making incredibly athletic plays to get in the backfield. Maybe NCC's Oline guys will be more athletic- I don't know.

The challenge of Mr. Kamienski will be interesting to watch. I don't get the feeling UWW will go to man coverage on him as much.
This is where the good guys from UWW can draw on the experience of having to contend w a certain Mr. Garcon.

Garcon?  Current players were like 9 years old when UWW played against Garcon.

I think a couple coaches and players (who are now coaches) who were around back then are still on the sidelines today.

Not many though.

[WarhawkDad]

I don't think STJU Oline is nearly as good as NCC's Oline. Pass blocking, maybe. Look at the relative run games. Its not close and NCC runs the ball against everybody because, much like UWW, they are committed to it (38 carries for 85 yds vs Wheaton). But that's my opinion. Can UWW's Dline and front control the game? I am not sure. I saw what they did last Saturday (great ESPN announcers for that game BTW) and am impressed. Much bigger battle will be the NCC defense vs the UWW Offense. I think NCC is going to score 30+ because no one has really stopped them from doing that but NCC's defense is also a great matchup as they stop the run pretty well, even without big named playmakers on defense. Mt Union's run yards were almost all QB scrambles (cue Meyler!) and I think they are prone to get beat deep in the pass game on running downs.

Interestingly, prior to Mt Union, I can't remember a time when Rutter came from behind to win a game. They are very used to playing with a lead. I even mentioned to an NCC fan prior to Mt Union that Rutter didn't really have a signature win on his resume. That game changed everything and here we are.

So while my son payed at UWW from 2009 to 2012 and coached in 2013, we actually live not far from Naperville and my son was recruited by NCC.  So we have quietly rooted for NCC except head to head and I have followed them, but not the the extent of Emma.    It is so hard to make these comparison judgments and in my mind it is one of the reasons we look at what conference the teams come from and in the last several years the WIAC and the MIAC have been more competitive than the CCIW, however the recent Wheaton v NCC games have been great!    It is a "who did they play" to get those statistics argument.    It is hard to gauge NCC based upon their win against Mount Union because Mount typically does not have great competition during a season until at least the quarter finals.  I have a great deal of respect for Mount Union and their fans and shared some libations with them in Salem, but in all honesty you don't know how good they really are until the middle of the playoffs.   On the other-hand both SJU and UWW play multiple teams in their respective conference schedules that really can challenge them physically in the trenches.     

I think it will be another great game in a series of 3 great games for UWW.    UMHB was great game, because of the total success of the UWW game plan, but it also helps makes my point....who does UMHB play until the middle of the playoffs?   SJU was a great game and could have easily gone either way.    I think NCC will be a great game as well.   It will depend on who wins the battle of the trenches and timely plays versus turnovers.

WHD

[USee]

Good post WHDad, I mostly agree its tough to gauge. I don't believe very strongly in the transitive property of games but there is some data to compare. NCC played Wheaton, who played STJU who played UWW. NCC played Muhlenberg who played Salisbury who played UWO who played UWW.

None of it matters on Friday but food for thought on a slow Wed.

[emma17]

I'm not sure SJU's Oline didn't perform well. I watched their left tackle a bit and he was a wall. I give the UWW D line guys credit as they never let up on him, but he was tough.
My take on the line play was the UWW D linemen played a phenomenal game, as opposed to the SJU Oline being a problem. UWW guys were making incredibly athletic plays to get in the backfield. Maybe NCC's Oline guys will be more athletic- I don't know.

The challenge of Mr. Kamienski will be interesting to watch. I don't get the feeling UWW will go to man coverage on him as much.
This is where the good guys from UWW can draw on the experience of having to contend w a certain Mr. Garcon.

Garcon?  Current players were like 9 years old when UWW played against Garcon.

Here I thought Rindahl, Griz, Raebel and the whole crew would be taking the field.

We had the same conversation last week regarding UWW DB's not getting beat deep vs SJU. It was only one game, but somehow, someway, the UWW D found a way to do what other teams couldn't.
I believe there are benefits to experience and tradition.

[emma17]

Good post WHDad, I mostly agree its tough to gauge. I don't believe very strongly in the transitive property of games but there is some data to compare. NCC played Wheaton, who played STJU who played UWW. NCC played Muhlenberg who played Salisbury who played UWO who played UWW.

None of it matters on Friday but food for thought on a slow Wed.

Agreed.
None of it matters. Especially anything that has to do with Salisbury. They are an entirely different team.

I'll take the eye test over any transitive property theories of games.

[USee]

Depends on who's eye test I suppose. Mine says NCC OLine is the best I have seen all season. It also says UWW DLine is much better than stats would indicate. Finally, it tells me the game will be won/lost on the undercard (UWW O vs NCC D)

[wally_wabash]

I'm not sure SJU's Oline didn't perform well. I watched their left tackle a bit and he was a wall. I give the UWW D line guys credit as they never let up on him, but he was tough.
My take on the line play was the UWW D linemen played a phenomenal game, as opposed to the SJU Oline being a problem. UWW guys were making incredibly athletic plays to get in the backfield. Maybe NCC's Oline guys will be more athletic- I don't know.

The challenge of Mr. Kamienski will be interesting to watch. I don't get the feeling UWW will go to man coverage on him as much.
This is where the good guys from UWW can draw on the experience of having to contend w a certain Mr. Garcon.

Garcon?  Current players were like 9 years old when UWW played against Garcon.

Here I thought Rindahl, Griz, Raebel and the whole crew would be taking the field.

We had the same conversation last week regarding UWW DB's not getting beat deep vs SJU. It was only one game, but somehow, someway, the UWW D found a way to do what other teams couldn't.
I believe there are benefits to experience and tradition.

I just find it curious how folks that have been bumping around on these boards for 10 or 15 or 20 years talk about these things like the games being played presently are part of the same, uninterrupted, 20-year season.  At times, I'm guilty of it also but try to be a bit more self-aware when I start to go down that particular rabbit hole. 

Anyway, don't think Garcon has anything to do with Friday.  Kamienski is excellent, obviously.  He's not Garcon- and that's not in any way a knock on Kamienski. 

[HScoach]

Kaminsky is a stud.  But comparing him to Garcon is ridiculous.   Garcon was an outlier at D3.  Kaminsky is a GREAT D3 receiver,  but has a D3 body.   He's much more like Adam Marino than Pierre Garcon.  Great route runner and catches everything.  Not a physical freak.