FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[02 Warhawk]

One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

What's your take on this? I have been told, and the rule book would seem to back this up, that a player who merely touches the ball outside the end zone on a kickoff and does not possess it before losing it backward into the end zone, does not have to take it out. It would be a touchback, not a safety.

True, but I think all bets were off when he ran the ball out of the endzone, only to go back into the zone (a second time) to avoid being tackled. But that back fired as he eventually was brought down behind the goal line

[Pat Coleman]

One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

What's your take on this? I have been told, and the rule book would seem to back this up, that a player who merely touches the ball outside the end zone on a kickoff and does not possess it before losing it backward into the end zone, does not have to take it out. It would be a touchback, not a safety.

True, but I think all bets were off when he ran the ball out of the endzone, only to go back into the zone (a second time) to avoid being tackled. But that back fired as he eventually was brought down behind the goal line

Oh, no doubt, but I don't think he had to take it back out the first time.

[bleedpurple]

One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

What's your take on this? I have been told, and the rule book would seem to back this up, that a player who merely touches the ball outside the end zone on a kickoff and does not possess it before losing it backward into the end zone, does not have to take it out. It would be a touchback, not a safety.

That is true for sure. And that's what happened. He did not need to take it out.  But he did take it out, advancing it to about the four yard line. Then during the return, he went back into the end zone to try to avoid Warhawk tacklers.  That's when the ball came out and the Warhawks landed on it. However, the referee's ruling was that it wasn't a fumble, but an attempted forward pass. From the end zone. On a kickoff return.  So the penalty occurred in the end zone for a safety.

[emma17]

Admittedly, I haven't followed UWW as closely as when they played my Purple Raiders every year... But I was absolutely baffled when I saw the Warhawks punt from their own 41 yardline on 4th and 1 and against UWO.

That play call seems like sacrilege for a program that used to be built on their ability to "Pound the Rock." Anyway, just thought it was strange and wanted to chime in. Curious if any UWW fans thought it was weird too.

No...no it wasn't. UWW plays in a really good conference against good teams. This isn't the OAC. 😉 no need for unnecessary risks against a good defensive team on the road. Pin them back and play good defense. Like Pat said it was in UWW territory

Oh yeah, I mean the fact that the WIAC is so good strengthens my argument. The analytics say that voluntarily giving UWO the ball back when you could pretty reliably pick up the first down is the unnecessary risk.

The New York Times did an analysis of NFL teams years ago and put together a pretty good chart about when to go for it on fourth down https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go-for-it-and-why.html and I've seen  similar charts elsewhere. I'd imagine this advice is even more relevant to D3 where punters aren't nearly as good.

Anyway, apparently you all agree with the call so I guess I'm alone on this opinion lol.

Chart may be behind a paywall but quick summary is 4th and 1 is almost always a good time to go for it, even if in own territory

Hey WR, I'm officially on the fence w the call, I support either decision. I'm in complete agreement with you regarding the overuse of the punt.
If I were making the call, one thing I'd definitely consider is the consistent strength of the UWO run defense against UWW. This game proved again to be no exception- UWO is a bear vs UWW run game.
On the other hand, w UWW's defense, it wouldn't likely hurt UWW to turn it over on downs.

Although coach LL was notorious for conservative decisions to play field position while at UWW, I heard him say recently he is changing his thinking on fourth down calls.

[KitchenSink]

Ugly win for UWW, but I'll take a multi-score win at UWO any year. UWW committed two very costly penalties (on third and long, and fourth and long I think it was) today, that prolonged two UWO drives....leading to their only two scores. UWO came to play and it showed. Playing for their post season lives pretty much.

If I have to hear UWO's announcers call Peete "Peety" one more time I might lose it.

Do you really believe that to be true? Did UW-W really commit penalties on those plays?

And, like beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beholder. To these eyes, this win was beautiful! Glad we got the chance to respond to some adversity and it was good to see how we. punched back. We faced a good Titan team and had to overcome some intangibles. It was the Titans first home game in nearly two years and they were playing for their playoff lives. This was never going to be particularly easy, but I agree with WW.  To take home a 19 point win in this spot is pretty impressive.

Also, side note, One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

That's the replay I would like to see.

[bleedpurple]

Ugly win for UWW, but I'll take a multi-score win at UWO any year. UWW committed two very costly penalties (on third and long, and fourth and long I think it was) today, that prolonged two UWO drives....leading to their only two scores. UWO came to play and it showed. Playing for their post season lives pretty much.

If I have to hear UWO's announcers call Peete "Peety" one more time I might lose it.

Do you really believe that to be true? Did UW-W really commit penalties on those plays?

And, like beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beholder. To these eyes, this win was beautiful! Glad we got the chance to respond to some adversity and it was good to see how we. punched back. We faced a good Titan team and had to overcome some intangibles. It was the Titans first home game in nearly two years and they were playing for their playoff lives. This was never going to be particularly easy, but I agree with WW.  To take home a 19 point win in this spot is pretty impressive.

Also, side note, One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

That's the replay I would like to see.

Two refs said it was a first for them. I'm sure it was a first for all of them. Who would even think of such a thing?

[bleedpurple]

Admittedly, I haven't followed UWW as closely as when they played my Purple Raiders every year... But I was absolutely baffled when I saw the Warhawks punt from their own 41 yardline on 4th and 1 and against UWO.

That play call seems like sacrilege for a program that used to be built on their ability to "Pound the Rock." Anyway, just thought it was strange and wanted to chime in. Curious if any UWW fans thought it was weird too.

No...no it wasn't. UWW plays in a really good conference against good teams. This isn't the OAC. 😉 no need for unnecessary risks against a good defensive team on the road. Pin them back and play good defense. Like Pat said it was in UWW territory

Oh yeah, I mean the fact that the WIAC is so good strengthens my argument. The analytics say that voluntarily giving UWO the ball back when you could pretty reliably pick up the first down is the unnecessary risk.

The New York Times did an analysis of NFL teams years ago and put together a pretty good chart about when to go for it on fourth down https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go-for-it-and-why.html and I've seen  similar charts elsewhere. I'd imagine this advice is even more relevant to D3 where punters aren't nearly as good.

Anyway, apparently you all agree with the call so I guess I'm alone on this opinion lol.

Chart may be behind a paywall but quick summary is 4th and 1 is almost always a good time to go for it, even if in own territory

Hey WR, I'm officially on the fence w the call, I support either decision. I'm in complete agreement with you regarding the overuse of the punt.
If I were making the call, one thing I'd definitely consider is the consistent strength of the UWO run defense against UWW. This game proved again to be no exception- UWO is a bear vs UWW run game.
On the other hand, w UWW's defense, it wouldn't likely hurt UWW to turn it over on downs.

Although coach LL was notorious for conservative decisions to play field position while at UWW, I heard him say recently he is changing his thinking on fourth down calls.

Any chance that coaching at Kansas, or even Buffalo, could necessitate a few more gambles than at UW-W?

Analytics are interesting, but they are derived from statistics that were accrued in all kinds of situations.  At UW-W, we live in a very specific situation.  If we don't turn the ball over, we rarely lose. In today's situation, the gamble simply wouldn't have been worth it. If we don't get it, UW-0 gets the ball in our territory, all fired up from a momentum swinging stop.  If we do get it we are still likely between 55 and 58 yards from our end zone.  That risk reward ratio doesn't work for me. No thanks.

[02 Warhawk]

UW-0....that never gets old.

Love it

[BoBo]

One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

What's your take on this? I have been told, and the rule book would seem to back this up, that a player who merely touches the ball outside the end zone on a kickoff and does not possess it before losing it backward into the end zone, does not have to take it out. It would be a touchback, not a safety.

That is true for sure. And that's what happened. He did not need to take it out.  But he did take it out, advancing it to about the four yard line. Then during the return, he went back into the end zone to try to avoid Warhawk tacklers.  That's when the ball came out and the Warhawks landed on it. However, the referee's ruling was that it wasn't a fumble, but an attempted forward pass. From the end zone. On a kickoff return.  So the penalty occurred in the end zone for a safety.

Wasn't the returner Grant #10 the Oshkosh speedster that had everyone frightened because of his speed before this game. UWW didn't look like they ever made any attempt to kick it away for him on any kick. To me he looked like an inexperienced Freshman trying to make a play on a difficult ball that was being wind aided and sailing over his head.  After it hit him high near the shoulder pad and went into the EZ, I was suprised he decided to bring it out. Perhaps he didn't have full knowledge of the rule. After he returned to the EZ a second time & with four or five Warhawks surrounding him, it was hard to tell what actually happened from the TV. I initially thought the forward pass thing was a gift call & should have been called a UWW TD since they clearly recovered the ball in the EZ. I don't believe Grant ever returned to return another kick after this. Two crazy mental mistakes played crucial roles in important conference games today.

[BoBo]

Ugly win for UWW, but I'll take a multi-score win at UWO any year. UWW committed two very costly penalties (on third and long, and fourth and long I think it was) today, that prolonged two UWO drives....leading to their only two scores. UWO came to play and it showed. Playing for their post season lives pretty much.

If I have to hear UWO's announcers call Peete "Peety" one more time I might lose it.

Do you really believe that to be true? Did UW-W really commit penalties on those plays?

And, like beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beholder. To these eyes, this win was beautiful! Glad we got the chance to respond to some adversity and it was good to see how we. punched back. We faced a good Titan team and had to overcome some intangibles. It was the Titans first home game in nearly two years and they were playing for their playoff lives. This was never going to be particularly easy, but I agree with WW.  To take home a 19 point win in this spot is pretty impressive.

Also, side note, One of the weirdest plays I've ever seen happened in this game. A Titan kickoff returner tried advancing the ball out of the end zone after initially muffing it. When he was surrounded by Warhawks, he threw a forward pass. Yes. A forward pass on a kickoff return from his own end zone. Ruled a safety. Definitely a first for me.

If you're questioning if those were legit penalties I honestly don't know. Watching the game on my phone, on a 3 inch screen, it was hard to see all the details. Plus the camera man didn't always pan fast enough on some downfield plays.

As for the safety, I had the sound off at that time. I assumed they ruled that the ground caused the fumble when he fell, which would be a safety. I didn't notice that he tried throwing it. What an odd play. The fact he ran out of the endzone, then back in the endzone to avoid would-be tacklers was a huge mistake. He underestimated UWW's speed to try and pull that crap.

Like I said in my original post: I'll take a multi score win in Oshkosh anytime.

The kid is allegedly so fast he probably felt there was no one on that field who was going to run him down in a foot race. Problem for him is that he was surrounded with nowhere to go. Even the most top-of-the-line speed wasn't going to allow him to escape the mess he found himself in.

[02 Warhawk]

Curious what his box score looked liked....

1 KO return for -2 yards on the day.

It was a big freshman mistake that turned the tide of the game.

[Pat Coleman]

Yep:

https://www.d3football.com/seasons/2021/boxscores/20211016_8i52.xml

[02 Warhawk]

Oh boy... I'm seeing the end of the UWP game popping up all over the place in social media, YouTube, SportsCenter...etc.

Sports world is taking notice. 

[WRMUalum13]

Oh boy... I'm seeing the end of the UWP game popping up all over the place in social media, YouTube, SportsCenter...etc.

Sports world is taking notice. 

Yeah just saw it on YouTube... feel so bad for the QB

[BoBo]

Oh boy... I'm seeing the end of the UWP game popping up all over the place in social media, YouTube, SportsCenter...etc.

Sports world is taking notice. 

Not at all surprising. The whole incident reminded me of Badger QB Joel Stave in a similar situation with the game on the line vs Arizona in the desert on Sept. 15, 2013. Until yesterday, that was the most weird ending I have ever seen.