FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[palum]

Posted by: kubiack78  Posted on: Today at 12:07:01 pm  
Insert Quote  
I have seen spotted cow out in South Dakota... and I mean Beer not the animal

Given the alcohol content of South Dakota beer it must have been a Spotted Heifer 

[emma17]

Thank you.  It must be a nice place if all of those people wanted to fight over it.  I look forward to my visit.  And since you guys are making me wiser in all things Wisconsin, I've had Stevens Point beer and LaCrosse beer, do any other WIAC towns have their names on beer cans?

I guess when it comes to sewage treatment plants, the best ones are the ones you don't know are there.

Good stuff Fanosaurus, if I was eligible I'd give many good karma.

[emma17]

True, the Raiders do not have C. Shorts and K. Miller this fall, but they will have a "great' defense and "O" line this year. The passing game will still be good and Coach Kehres will see to it that the running games improves.
I like their chances to go real far this year with 18 starters returning!

I don't think this was ever in doubt. 

Come on now all, I respect and admire what Mt has done as much as the next guy- but why the hurry to annoint?  There is a big difference in reloading top DIII talent and reloading NFL talent on a DIII team. I could be wrong, but I have not heard of or seen the guy that keeps the Pierre-Cecil string going. You cannot overemphasize the impact those two had on defenses. Without the heir apparent, teams can now play a good DIII defender against a good DIII receiver- rather than against an NFL receiver.
I love what Mt has done and what they represent in DIII, but I for one think a Pierre and Cecil- less offense is a whole lot more manageable defensively.

[02 Warhawk]

True, the Raiders do not have C. Shorts and K. Miller this fall, but they will have a "great' defense and "O" line this year. The passing game will still be good and Coach Kehres will see to it that the running games improves.
I like their chances to go real far this year with 18 starters returning!

I don't think this was ever in doubt.  

Come on now all, I respect and admire what Mt has done as much as the next guy- but why the hurry to annoint?  There is a big difference in reloading top DIII talent and reloading NFL talent on a DIII team. I could be wrong, but I have not heard of or seen the guy that keeps the Pierre-Cecil string going. You cannot overemphasize the impact those two had on defenses. Without the heir apparent, teams can now play a good DIII defender against a good DIII receiver- rather than against an NFL receiver.
I love what Mt has done and what they represent in DIII, but I for one think a Pierre and Cecil- less offense is a whole lot more manageable defensively.

If history has told us one thing about them, is that they have the ability to reload at VERY HIGH level. Only 13 losses in the past 20 years, along with 10 national championships.

They've had MANY All-American's come and go during that time, and yet they are the top team in the country year in and year out.

Why would this year be any different?

One more thing.....They were Pierre and Cecil-less during the 90's and early 2000's yet they still managed to put together winning streaks of 54 wins (1996–1999) and 55 wins (2000–2003). You can make the argument that their best teams DIDN'T have Pierre/Cecil on them.

I see the point you're trying to make, and trust me, I hope you are right, but I don't see it happening..... not yet at least. When Larry Kehres leaves or loses his touch....then we can talk.

[badgerwarhawk]

You beat me to it, '02. 

[MasterJedi]

I have to agree as well, until I see UMU falter I'm not going to believe it. Last year was the chance for some other team to take advantage of a very young team and they still couldn't, so I see at least 3 more years of OAC dominance. Just gotta believe that UWW can do the same thing and stay ahead! 

[cubs]

Oshkosh has the offense to compete, they just never seem to have a defense that can stop anyone. That's why I don't think they'll be able to compete, they need to put the defense together first. My cousin played there in the 90s, he said it was the same then too. Their offense will allow them to hang with Mount for awhile, and then they'll fall behind when they can't stop their offense.

While UWO's defense has has struggled recently, it was actually pretty good as recently as 3-4 years ago when Cerroni was the defensive cocrdinator. 

In 2007, they gave up 15.0 PPG, 2nd in the WIAC in Scoring Defense to Whitewater's 13.9.  They had the #1 Passing Defense in 2007 as well, giving up 154.7 YPG.  The one "chink" in the defense's armor in 2007 was the rush defense, where they were #4  in the WIAC that season, giving up 142.6 YPG.  Overall, the Titans were #2 in Total Defense in 2007, giving up 20 yards more per game on average than the #1 Whitewater defense that season.  For comparisons sake the #3 defense gave up 37 more yards per game than #2 Oshkosh.  (In case anyone was wondering, Oshkosh finished that 2007 season 7-3.)

[oshfb]

So I am checking out the map, planning my trip up to Oshkosh to watch Central open the football season against the Titans September 3.  I always enjoy trips more the more I know about where I am going.  So I have some linguistic questions for you guys.  Does anyone know what Oshkosh, Winnebago, and Winneconne mean in whatever Native American language I presume they come from?  And how about Butte des Morts?  My French was never tres bon but it looks like, hill of dead stuff, to me.  There must be a story there.  And one more thing, on the Google satellite view, is that a sewage treatment plant I see just south of the football field?  And if so does anybody know which way the prevailing winds blow in early September?

Yes, I believe it is a sewage treatment plant. While in the stands look Southeast and you might see fire coming from the gas release valve thingy (that is clearly the scientific name for it). You won't notice any smell from that plant...however...Northwest of the stadium about 3-5 miles is the county garbage dump, or rather garbage mountain. If the wind is coming out of the northwest you very well might smell it. Hope you enjoy your trip up to Oshkosh. I plan to be at the game myself.

[emma17]

True, the Raiders do not have C. Shorts and K. Miller this fall, but they will have a "great' defense and "O" line this year. The passing game will still be good and Coach Kehres will see to it that the running games improves.
I like their chances to go real far this year with 18 starters returning!

I don't think this was ever in doubt.  

Come on now all, I respect and admire what Mt has done as much as the next guy- but why the hurry to annoint?  There is a big difference in reloading top DIII talent and reloading NFL talent on a DIII team. I could be wrong, but I have not heard of or seen the guy that keeps the Pierre-Cecil string going. You cannot overemphasize the impact those two had on defenses. Without the heir apparent, teams can now play a good DIII defender against a good DIII receiver- rather than against an NFL receiver.
I love what Mt has done and what they represent in DIII, but I for one think a Pierre and Cecil- less offense is a whole lot more manageable defensively.

If history has told us one thing about them, is that they have the ability to reload at VERY HIGH level. Only 13 losses in the past 20 years, along with 10 national championships.

They've had MANY All-American's come and go during that time, and yet they are the top team in the country year in and year out.

Why would this year be any different?

One more thing.....They were Pierre and Cecil-less during the 90's and early 2000's yet they still managed to put together winning streaks of 54 wins (1996–1999) and 55 wins (2000–2003). You can make the argument that their best teams DIDN'T have Pierre/Cecil on them.

I see the point you're trying to make, and trust me, I hope you are right, but I don't see it happening..... not yet at least. When Larry Kehres leaves or loses his touch....then we can talk.

Good thoughts here 02 and others.  This is an interesting conversation (as well as the Oshkosh dump & sewage treatment thread) as it goes to a bigger question in my opinion:  Are/when are other DIII teams going to catch up to Mt and UWW? 
My answer is soon, and perhaps this year. 

I don't know much about Mt prior to 2005 so I can only offer the following:  Perhaps Mt's runs prior to 2005 may be similar to dominant DI and NFL teams of the 90's (i.e. Univ of Miami, 49ers)- great/unique coaching that created programs that were "ahead of the curve".  Over time though, teams catch up.  Perhaps it's a slower catch up process in DIII due to the lack of scholarships, and therefore the lack of the "super star" type players.   

If you look at 2005- present, the impact of superstar players Pierre and Cecil cannot be ignored.  Mt has been in 6 consecutive Stagg Bowls with one or the other as the marquee player.  Here's an interesting question.  If you took Pierre and Cecil off the Mt teams in the last six Stagg Bowls, and you had to take one of UWW's players off the team in each of the last six Stagg Bowls, what are the results?

I believe more and more teams in DIII are closing the gap with the big 2 because they have the blueprint.  Mt has had the luxury of the NFL caliber player for 6 years, which has allowed them to stay ahead even when, perhaps their overall team may not have been as dominant.   
I believe Coach K knows this intimately, and it's no surprise he is taking over the offensive play calling.

[Raider 68]

True, the Raiders do not have C. Shorts and K. Miller this fall, but they will have a "great' defense and "O" line this year. The passing game will still be good and Coach Kehres will see to it that the running games improves.
I like their chances to go real far this year with 18 starters returning!

I don't think this was ever in doubt. 

Come on now all, I respect and admire what Mt has done as much as the next guy- but why the hurry to annoint?  There is a big difference in reloading top DIII talent and reloading NFL talent on a DIII team. I could be wrong, but I have not heard of or seen the guy that keeps the Pierre-Cecil string going. You cannot overemphasize the impact those two had on defenses. Without the heir apparent, teams can now play a good DIII defender against a good DIII receiver- rather than against an NFL receiver.
I love what Mt has done and what they represent in DIII, but I for one think a Pierre and Cecil- less offense is a whole lot more manageable defensively.

If history has told us one thing about them, is that they have the ability to reload at VERY HIGH level. Only 13 losses in the past 20 years, along with 10 national championships.

They've had MANY All-American's come and go during that time, and yet they are the top team in the country year in and year out.

Why would this year be any different?

One more thing.....They were Pierre and Cecil-less during the 90's and early 2000's yet they still managed to put together winning streaks of 54 wins (1996–1999) and 55 wins (2000–2003). You can make the argument that their best teams DIDN'T have Pierre/Cecil on them.

I see the point you're trying to make, and trust me, I hope you are right, but I don't see it happening..... not yet at least. When Larry Kehres leaves or loses his touch....then we can talk.

Good thoughts here 02 and others.  This is an interesting conversation (as well as the Oshkosh dump & sewage treatment thread) as it goes to a bigger question in my opinion:  Are/when are other DIII teams going to catch up to Mt and UWW? 
My answer is soon, and perhaps this year. 

I don't know much about Mt prior to 2005 so I can only offer the following:  Perhaps Mt's runs prior to 2005 may be similar to dominant DI and NFL teams of the 90's (i.e. Univ of Miami, 49ers)- great/unique coaching that created programs that were "ahead of the curve".  Over time though, teams catch up.  Perhaps it's a slower catch up process in DIII due to the lack of scholarships, and therefore the lack of the "super star" type players.   

If you look at 2005- present, the impact of superstar players Pierre and Cecil cannot be ignored.  Mt has been in 6 consecutive Stagg Bowls with one or the other as the marquee player.  Here's an interesting question.  If you took Pierre and Cecil off the Mt teams in the last six Stagg Bowls, and you had to take one of UWW's players off the team in each of the last six Stagg Bowls, what are the results?

I believe more and more teams in DIII are closing the gap with the big 2 because they have the blueprint.  Mt has had the luxury of the NFL caliber player for 6 years, which has allowed them to stay ahead even when, perhaps their overall team may not have been as dominant.   
I believe Coach K knows this intimately, and it's no surprise he is taking over the offensive play calling.

emma17,

I think the results would be close to the same:

For Mount had Nate Kmic and Greg Micheli, Not NFL, but top players

For UWW had J. Beaver and L. Coppage

This does not change the contribution of P. Garcon and C. Shorts, it just shows that these two teams
always have other premier players that most D3 team do not have.

Regarding other D3 schools closing the gap, there are a half dozen other top schools who could raise the
level of their game this year and/or next. The larger question, can the stay there?

[footballfan413]

True, the Raiders do not have C. Shorts and K. Miller this fall, but they will have a "great' defense and "O" line this year. The passing game will still be good and Coach Kehres will see to it that the running games improves.
I like their chances to go real far this year with 18 starters returning!

I don't think this was ever in doubt.  

Come on now all, I respect and admire what Mt has done as much as the next guy- but why the hurry to annoint?  There is a big difference in reloading top DIII talent and reloading NFL talent on a DIII team. I could be wrong, but I have not heard of or seen the guy that keeps the Pierre-Cecil string going. You cannot overemphasize the impact those two had on defenses. Without the heir apparent, teams can now play a good DIII defender against a good DIII receiver- rather than against an NFL receiver.
I love what Mt has done and what they represent in DIII, but I for one think a Pierre and Cecil- less offense is a whole lot more manageable defensively.

If history has told us one thing about them, is that they have the ability to reload at VERY HIGH level. Only 13 losses in the past 20 years, along with 10 national championships.

They've had MANY All-American's come and go during that time, and yet they are the top team in the country year in and year out.

Why would this year be any different?

One more thing.....They were Pierre and Cecil-less during the 90's and early 2000's yet they still managed to put together winning streaks of 54 wins (1996–1999) and 55 wins (2000–2003). You can make the argument that their best teams DIDN'T have Pierre/Cecil on them.

I see the point you're trying to make, and trust me, I hope you are right, but I don't see it happening..... not yet at least. When Larry Kehres leaves or loses his touch....then we can talk.

Good thoughts here 02 and others.  This is an interesting conversation (as well as the Oshkosh dump & sewage treatment thread) as it goes to a bigger question in my opinion:  Are/when are other DIII teams going to catch up to Mt and UWW?  
My answer is soon, and perhaps this year.  

I don't know much about Mt prior to 2005 so I can only offer the following:  Perhaps Mt's runs prior to 2005 may be similar to dominant DI and NFL teams of the 90's (i.e. Univ of Miami, 49ers)- great/unique coaching that created programs that were "ahead of the curve".  Over time though, teams catch up.  Perhaps it's a slower catch up process in DIII due to the lack of scholarships, and therefore the lack of the "super star" type players.    

If you look at 2005- present, the impact of superstar players Pierre and Cecil cannot be ignored.  Mt has been in 6 consecutive Stagg Bowls with one or the other as the marquee player.  Here's an interesting question.  If you took Pierre and Cecil off the Mt teams in the last six Stagg Bowls, and you had to take one of UWW's players off the team in each of the last six Stagg Bowls, what are the results?

I believe more and more teams in DIII are closing the gap with the big 2 because they have the blueprint.  Mt has had the luxury of the NFL caliber player for 6 years, which has allowed them to stay ahead even when, perhaps their overall team may not have been as dominant.  
I believe Coach K knows this intimately, and it's no surprise he is taking over the offensive play calling.

Since you admit to not paying a lot of attention until 05, I'll go easy on you, 17.  LOL   Jk'ing but I think you are WAY overplaying this NFL caliber player card here.  Yes, they had Garcon and Shorts but while great, they were hardly the only dominant aspects of those teams.  Are you forgetting about a record setting RB named Kmic, for one example?  Their dominant line play year after year?  And let's not forget that in 07, the Hawks DEFENSE made Garcon a non-factor in that game.    The point is, take those two off the roster and I highly suspect whoever was riding the pines behind them, while not NFL bound, would have still had an impact and not changed the win/loss column for those Raider teams one damn bit.   02 made the point best and it bears repeating.  13 TOTAL losses in the last 20 YEARS and 10 National Championships!!!!! Their history of success has less to do with putting NFL caliber players on the field and much more to do with putting together that kind of resume which attracts talent from all over the country, a great coach and a a huge roster, (over 200 players every year,)  who they develop with a JV program and then they play the cream of the crop!  Makes it pretty easy to reload year after year as they have proven for decades!  

            I soooo want to stop touting the greatness of the Mount program now.................

[footballfan413]

Just beat me to it,  68!   

[John Gleich]

            I soooo want to stop touting the greatness of the Mount program now.................

This is one of the things I like about this site... Whitewater fans have (justifiably) been touting the laurels of their biggest rival for the past several pages.

It just shows the respect that they have for another top notch program!

[emma17]

Raider 68 and 413-
In a round about way you are supporting my point.  
68 you say "For Mount had Nate Kmic and Greg Micheli, Not NFL, but top players and UWW had J. Beaver and L. Coppage".  

413 you say "Their dominant line play year after year?  And let's not forget that in 07, the Hawks DEFENSE made Garcon a non-factor in that game."

Right, they were all excellent DIII football players (Micheli was my personal favorite).  But they weren't NFL caliber, and therefore, OUR excellent DIII players could match up with their excellent DIII players.  
It's when you add a player that has the talent of a Garcon to the mix that you create an imbalance to the DIII vs DIII match-up.
413-I love ya kid, but I remember the 2005 and 2006 Mt Union teams very well.  They were excellent teams, and they had an excellent line that blocked for an excellent DIII running back in Nate Kmick.  HOWEVER, whether the o-line was great or just good had NO bearing whatsoever on Pierre's game breaking touchdowns.  He made those plays mostly on his own.  In comparison, Kmick ran through a hole outside (created by a great O-line as Levell ran through a hole inside on 3rd and 6 last year created by a great O-line) and he was off to the races down the sideline.  Mr. Garcon did things with the football in those Stagg Bowls that were completely individual ability- ability above and beyond that of the typical excellent DIII player.  

I will go back to my question about removing a UWW player in exchange for removing Garcon and then Shorts.
In 2005, 2006 and 2007- I assume you remove Beaver from UWW.  His loss would hurt no doubt, but in comparison to Mt losing Garcon?  There is no "backup sitting on the bench" that can come close to doing what Garcon does- otherwise he'd be on the field.  In 2008, 2009 and 2010- I assume you remove Coppage from UWW.  His loss would hurt, but come on- think this one through folks.  UWW had 3 running backs that could start on nearly every team in the country- Coppage just happened to be the best of them.  Mt losing Shorts in exchange for UWW losing Coppage- I'll take UWW every day of the week.  
 

[Sakman 1111]

Usually enjoy your posts Emma but I am not quite sure what the debate is......if your saying Garcon/Shorts were more important to their teams than Coppage was to the Warhawks I would probably disagree but certainly I am somewhat predjudiced knowing Coppage for a long time.....He had good players behind him but so did G/S..... Ask any of the coaches how important Coppage is to the team....I think you would be surpirised by the answers....MU and UWW continue to improve talent wise each year....2011 team in my opinion will have more talented football players in their 100 man squad than they ever have had. My son, who was a pretty fair Oline man on the 2005-6 teams, started every game for 4 years. He has said that coming in as a freshman now he would not start as a freshman because of the talent at every position and on the bench. Many of the subs today would start at other WIAC schools.....MU and UWW win repeatedly because of first talent throughout the program and then terrific coaching.....not isolated NFL players.....