FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[02 Warhawk]

I won the Split-the-Pot, I think it was two seasons ago. The $$$ didn't even make it back home with me. I spent it on the bars in Whitewater that day. I paid for my entire group's lunch and drinks after the game at Coyote's.

In hind-site, that wasn't the smartest thing I've done with $300. Oh well....

[footballfan413]

I won the Split-the-Pot, I think it was two seasons ago. The $$$ didn't even make it back home with me. I spent it on the bars in Whitewater that day. I paid for my entire group's lunch and drinks after the game at Coyote's.

In hind-site, that wasn't the smartest thing I've done with $300. Oh well....

I won it once the first season I starting attending games.  It was only about $76 bucks and I have no idea how I spent it.  I like what you did with your winnings much better.   

[02 Warhawk]

I won the Split-the-Pot, I think it was two seasons ago. The $$$ didn't even make it back home with me. I spent it on the bars in Whitewater that day. I paid for my entire group's lunch and drinks after the game at Coyote's.

In hind-site, that wasn't the smartest thing I've done with $300. Oh well....

I won it once the first season I starting attending games.  It was only about $76 bucks and I have no idea how I spent it.  I like what you did with your winnings much better.   

I'm sure Sal liked it too.

[fballfan]

I guess it really depends on how a coaching staff chooses to use grey shirting.  Is is mainly a consolation prize?  "Sorry, you're not good enough to make the roster and warrant our time and energy to develop you but see what you can do to improve and there's always next year."  Or, "We think you've got a bright future here but there is kind of a log jam at your position for the next year or so, so here's the play book, do what you can on your own this season and then when you do start, you'll be that much bigger and stronger."  I'm sure it happens both ways all the time.  But in the case that Oshfb spoke about, where a freshman just decides, on his own, that he would be better served to fore go a spot on the roster thinking he is wasting his time on the bench and has a better shot at competing by sitting out, that one I am really suspect about working for a player for all the reasons he listed. But, of course, there are exceptions, I'm sure. 

Heading to Wisconsin later today for the start of High School ball!  Very excited!   
            GO COUGARS!!!!

Every player I have heard of that has done this has done it with the support of the coaches.  They cannot work out with the team during the season, but they do have access to the strength and conditioning coaches (unless that has changed) who give them workouts and conditioning during the season.  As soon as the official season is over, then they join the team and usually for spring practice also.
Sometimes it has been because a team has a lot of players at that position right now and the coach sees a good future athlete and says wait a year.  Sometimes its because a player may decide he wants to make sure he gets good grades and is a little leery of taking on a full load right away.  Sometimes its because a player knows he will be there 4+ years and says I will be a lot bigger and stronger at 23 than at 18 so I'll try and join the team next year and I will be one step ahead of the fresh.  And perhaps it depends a bit on position.  Some positions require more bulk.
I think the coaches are honest with the players who don't make the team.  They tell some players don't come knocking again.
Not everyone is a freshman phenom, ya know.   Grey shirting works very well for some. 
I'm not sure every school lists all the players who try out, do they?  I have tried to find lists for other schools and cannot.  If anyone knows where they are, please post.  But if all schools don't list the tryouts, then we really don't know how many are trying out for the second time.
Plus, some schools don't have varsity reserve games.  Or they have very few.  So its not like the freshman is going to see any playing time anywhere.  It was mentioned UWW has several varsity reserve games, good for them, way to develop players.  But for a school who doesn't, that may be another reason to say sit out a year.

[fballfan]

Things must be really different at UWW.  I know of players - in other schools - who decided to take a year off, bulk up, gain weight and came back bigger and stronger and ready to go.  They figured why sit on the bench their freshman year when they would have a much better chance after they grew into their "man body".   Most students are in school 4 1/2 - 5 years anyway.  Some majors are such that you KNOW you will be in school 5 years.
Or are you saying that the talent at UWW is so good and so big at the freshman year that if you can't make it your freshman year, you need not apply again?

Every year while I played I would see a group of Freshman who thought they would benefit more by taking a year off to bulk up and/or get quicker than by redshirting and as you put it "sit on the bench". It NEVER worked out. Why?
(1)   They never gained experience working within the offensive or defensive scheme that comes with redshirting (even if it is as a scout player)
(2)   They never gained experience competing against athletes who are at a higher level than themselves
(3)   They never built chemistry that comes with practicing with teammates over an extended period of time
(4)   They never worked as hard in the offseason (weights, conditioning, agility, speed, etc) as the football team did (not even close)

Since redshirting doesn't exist anymore, that is not an option.  Perhaps more do decide to wait a year simply because they cannot redshirt.  I agree....redshirting would be the best route, but its history.  Now I think the former redshirts are sitting out a year.
But you are correct about working offseason.  That takes dedication.  I am sure the coaches the players want back are on the coaches radar and do their best to keep in contact as permitted.
I know one player who was told by his coaches that they were stacked at the position with sophs/jrs.  If he sat a year, he would come in bigger and stronger and see the field quicker.  Otherwise the player could have switched schools to play faster.  Kid sat out and joined the team workouts as soon as the season was over.  Coach was smart imo.  He kept a good player in the wings and kept him off a competing team.
But of course, we do not know what goes on behind the scenes when a player "doesn't make the roster" the first time around.  I am sure plenty try out that will never make the roster.

[Pat Coleman]

Going to make a pitch on this board about supporting Kickoff 2011. We have some great WIAC coverage this year, including two feature stories about WIAC players (one that is focused on UW-Whitewater  and one that also includes other schools).

Worth the cost, we think, and D3football.com needs your support this year as much as ever. Please give us a look-see again. It comes out on Tuesday:

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/08/kickoff-in-home-stretch

[02 Warhawk]

Going to make a pitch on this board about supporting Kickoff 2011. We have some great WIAC coverage this year, including two feature stories about WIAC players (one that is focused on UW-Whitewater  and one that also includes other schools).

Worth the cost, we think, and D3football.com needs your support this year as much as ever. Please give us a look-see again. It comes out on Tuesday:

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/08/kickoff-in-home-stretch

Nice....I like a good tease.

I already registered, my first year of doing so.

[emma17]

Things must be really different at UWW.  I know of players - in other schools - who decided to take a year off, bulk up, gain weight and came back bigger and stronger and ready to go.  They figured why sit on the bench their freshman year when they would have a much better chance after they grew into their "man body".   Most students are in school 4 1/2 - 5 years anyway.  Some majors are such that you KNOW you will be in school 5 years.
Or are you saying that the talent at UWW is so good and so big at the freshman year that if you can't make it your freshman year, you need not apply again?

Every year while I played I would see a group of Freshman who thought they would benefit more by taking a year off to bulk up and/or get quicker than by redshirting and as you put it "sit on the bench". It NEVER worked out. Why?
(1)   They never gained experience working within the offensive or defensive scheme that comes with redshirting (even if it is as a scout player)
(2)   They never gained experience competing against athletes who are at a higher level than themselves
(3)   They never built chemistry that comes with practicing with teammates over an extended period of time
(4)   They never worked as hard in the offseason (weights, conditioning, agility, speed, etc) as the football team did (not even close)

Since redshirting doesn't exist anymore, that is not an option.  Perhaps more do decide to wait a year simply because they cannot redshirt.  I agree....redshirting would be the best route, but its history.  Now I think the former redshirts are sitting out a year.
But you are correct about working offseason.  That takes dedication.  I am sure the coaches the players want back are on the coaches radar and do their best to keep in contact as permitted.
I know one player who was told by his coaches that they were stacked at the position with sophs/jrs.  If he sat a year, he would come in bigger and stronger and see the field quicker.  Otherwise the player could have switched schools to play faster.  Kid sat out and joined the team workouts as soon as the season was over.  Coach was smart imo.  He kept a good player in the wings and kept him off a competing team.
But of course, we do not know what goes on behind the scenes when a player "doesn't make the roster" the first time around.  I am sure plenty try out that will never make the roster.

Fballfan,
I just want to say I enjoy reading your posts.  You provide interesting insight and to be honest, I have a much better understanding of why/when gray shirting would work.  Thanks

[emma17]

Hey fballfan,
I just qualified to do the ol plus karma gig and you are my first recipient.
Big day for me.

[fballfan]

Hey fballfan,
I just qualified to do the ol plus karma gig and you are my first recipient.
Big day for me.

OH wow!!  I am honored!!  I don't think I can do that yet, or I don't know how to.
But to be honest, my sons and many friends that they have met throughout the years at camps etc in various sports are now on the college scene (various sports), so I hear many stories.
Some players who were thought to be college stars are playing as freshman.  Some who were thought to be stars aren't making it for various reasons (grades, girls, injuries, loss of interest, no improvement).  So just because you made the roster doesn't guarantee you will be there next year either.
And then, some grey shirts are coming on strong.  (One more example is a player who went through camp then decided to sit a year because the doc said an old HS knee injury would heal better if he actually rested one season
OK...I'm done with the examples. 
But I felt some of the comments were rather harsh.  (no offense intended I don't want to lose karma!) I hoped some of the athletes (or their parents) who had worked hard all last year in hopes of making the team this year were not reading them.  Just like the NFL (a lofty comparison)...undrafted players who keep trying sometimes do make the team   Sometimes hard work, perseverance and timing work in your favor.
I'm glad to see good discussions going.  Are you read for some football???!!!!

[emma17]

Hey fballfan,
I just qualified to do the ol plus karma gig and you are my first recipient.
Big day for me.

OH wow!!  I am honored!!  I don't think I can do that yet, or I don't know how to.
But to be honest, my sons and many friends that they have met throughout the years at camps etc in various sports are now on the college scene (various sports), so I hear many stories.
Some players who were thought to be college stars are playing as freshman.  Some who were thought to be stars aren't making it for various reasons (grades, girls, injuries, loss of interest, no improvement).  So just because you made the roster doesn't guarantee you will be there next year either.
And then, some grey shirts are coming on strong.  (One more example is a player who went through camp then decided to sit a year because the doc said an old HS knee injury would heal better if he actually rested one season
OK...I'm done with the examples. 
But I felt some of the comments were rather harsh.  (no offense intended I don't want to lose karma!) I hoped some of the athletes (or their parents) who had worked hard all last year in hopes of making the team this year were not reading them.  Just like the NFL (a lofty comparison)...undrafted players who keep trying sometimes do make the team   Sometimes hard work, perseverance and timing work in your favor.
I'm glad to see good discussions going.  Are you read for some football???!!!!

Football is all about the kid with the dream.  That's why I want to hear the stories of those that missed the cut but kept battling.  I hope there are some success stories out there.

Don't be afraid of a minus karma, as Teddy Roosevelt said "It's not the critic who counts..."

[hazzben]

Things must be really different at UWW.  I know of players - in other schools - who decided to take a year off, bulk up, gain weight and came back bigger and stronger and ready to go.  They figured why sit on the bench their freshman year when they would have a much better chance after they grew into their "man body".   Most students are in school 4 1/2 - 5 years anyway.  Some majors are such that you KNOW you will be in school 5 years.
Or are you saying that the talent at UWW is so good and so big at the freshman year that if you can't make it your freshman year, you need not apply again?

Theoretically, you are only going to grey-shirt players you have ranked after the first 100, right?  Seems like pretty lousy odds to me that a player every makes the team,  But as Pat said, they do become academic sophomores but with freshman eligibility so there is something to be said for that.  It may happen more than I realize.  

I'm not sure it's only players outside of the top 100 who get grey-shirted.

Really, any player that isn't one of the top 60 or so players will see little to no playing time during a season. They certainly won't suit for any road or playoff games. Now, if a freshman has the goods to play or add quality depth (2 deep, special teams, etc.) I absolutely think grey-shirting probably isn't the best route.

But if a freshman comes in at 18 and is the 65th (or 75th or 95th) best kid on the roster, that does't mean he won't potentially contribute later on in his career. He probably won't see the field as a freshman, and if he does it'll be scrub time late in the 4th quarter. So he grey-shirts, gets the playbook to study and lifts hard during the season. During the offseason most grey-shirts are invited to officially participate in the teams lifting program (most actually follow an offseason program already in the fall) and spring ball.

Next fall he's now 19 and the 40th best player on the team. Not only will he travel and play on special teams, he's also only a freshman in eligibility. Even if he gets hurt in the next 4 years he still has  medical hardship.

But the biggest difference is that your trading a year of eligibility as an 18 year old for a year as a 22 year old. The kid who came in as a 6'1" 195 lbs linebacker at 18 is now 225 lbs and faster and more mature than his 18 year old self. That is a significant difference. That doesn't mean every grey-shirt works out like this, but by and large I'll take the 22 year old version over the 18 year old version every time.

[John Gleich]

It would be interesting to me to see stats on guys who grey-shirt... The idea was thrown around (and hashed, and rehashed) several years ago, soon after the red-shirt ban...

But how many guys who don't have the size/skill to come in and be a part of the team as Freshmen are able to do what needs to be done in one year and are able to be that guy the next year, one year older?

I have to wonder how those guys are factored in with recruiting, too... do you bring in guys at the same position that you know you'll have other guys coming out at, who grey-shirted?

I think you recruit the best players you can and try and find a spot for them... but it's an interesting discussion, several years past the red-shirt ban, none the less.

[emma17]

Things must be really different at UWW.  I know of players - in other schools - who decided to take a year off, bulk up, gain weight and came back bigger and stronger and ready to go.  They figured why sit on the bench their freshman year when they would have a much better chance after they grew into their "man body".   Most students are in school 4 1/2 - 5 years anyway.  Some majors are such that you KNOW you will be in school 5 years.
Or are you saying that the talent at UWW is so good and so big at the freshman year that if you can't make it your freshman year, you need not apply again?

Theoretically, you are only going to grey-shirt players you have ranked after the first 100, right?  Seems like pretty lousy odds to me that a player every makes the team,  But as Pat said, they do become academic sophomores but with freshman eligibility so there is something to be said for that.  It may happen more than I realize.  

I'm not sure it's only players outside of the top 100 who get grey-shirted.

Really, any player that isn't one of the top 60 or so players will see little to no playing time during a season. They certainly won't suit for any road or playoff games. Now, if a freshman has the goods to play or add quality depth (2 deep, special teams, etc.) I absolutely think grey-shirting probably isn't the best route.

But if a freshman comes in at 18 and is the 65th (or 75th or 95th) best kid on the roster, that does't mean he won't potentially contribute later on in his career. He probably won't see the field as a freshman, and if he does it'll be scrub time late in the 4th quarter. So he grey-shirts, gets the playbook to study and lifts hard during the season. During the offseason most grey-shirts are invited to officially participate in the teams lifting program (most actually follow an offseason program already in the fall) and spring ball.

Next fall he's now 19 and the 40th best player on the team. Not only will he travel and play on special teams, he's also only a freshman in eligibility. Even if he gets hurt in the next 4 years he still has  medical hardship.

But the biggest difference is that your trading a year of eligibility as an 18 year old for a year as a 22 year old. The kid who came in as a 6'1" 195 lbs linebacker at 18 is now 225 lbs and faster and more mature than his 18 year old self. That is a significant difference. That doesn't mean every grey-shirt works out like this, but by and large I'll take the 22 year old version over the 18 year old version every time.

Bam
And a plus for Hazzben too.  I didn't think of the 65th type kid- makes perfect sense.  As you mention, there is the risk (if it is even a risk) that a grayshirt just kind of fades away.  However, at a school that is competing nationally, it would be much harder to do (fade away I mean).  The excitement and the notoriety will most likely keep the grayshirt even more motivated. 
Good stuff.   

[emma17]

It would be interesting to me to see stats on guys who grey-shirt... The idea was thrown around (and hashed, and rehashed) several years ago, soon after the red-shirt ban...

But how many guys who don't have the size/skill to come in and be a part of the team as Freshmen are able to do what needs to be done in one year and are able to be that guy the next year, one year older?

I have to wonder how those guys are factored in with recruiting, too... do you bring in guys at the same position that you know you'll have other guys coming out at, who grey-shirted?

I think you recruit the best players you can and try and find a spot for them... but it's an interesting discussion, several years past the red-shirt ban, none the less.

Shazaam, one for you too Point. 
The recruiting factor is interesting. I have to imagine you're thought is right- the team continues to recruit the best players it can (I guess no different than anything else).  However, it does give the added pressure and incentive to the grayshirt knowing that.  At least if you're on the roster, your a bit more comfortable in your standing as new recruits come in.  As a grayshirt, I imagine you are always the Rudy.