FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[02 Warhawk]

413 and Ret, I find your discussion to be very interesting and informative, thanks. You both have significant personal experiences that form your opinions.

Keeping the general hockey discussion going, besides the deflected goal issue I raised previously, I struggle with the notion that some hockey fans believe NHL players are great or even the greatest athletes. Don't get me wrong as I know they are extremely skilled and very athletic, but from the perspective of what I call the "talent funnel" they had to pass through to be a pro, I don't see it.

Hockey players are probably in better shape than just about anyone, when compared to at baseball, football and basketball athletes. To say which sport possesses the best athletes...that's a tough call to make and is open for many types of interpretation.

[badgerwarhawk]

The best thing about hockey is that it isn't soccer. 

[emma17]

413 and Ret, I find your discussion to be very interesting and informative, thanks. You both have significant personal experiences that form your opinions.

Keeping the general hockey discussion going, besides the deflected goal issue I raised previously, I struggle with the notion that some hockey fans believe NHL players are great or even the greatest athletes. Don't get me wrong as I know they are extremely skilled and very athletic, but from the perspective of what I call the "talent funnel" they had to pass through to be a pro, I don't see it.

Hockey players are probably in better shape than just about anyone, when compared to at baseball, football and basketball athletes. To say which sport possesses the best athletes...that's a tough call to make and is open for many types of interpretation.

You're right that debating the "best athlete" is tough as it's a perspective/definition thing.
Looking at it another way, in terms of the odds in making it to the professional level of sports in the USA, I think hockey gives better odds than the big three of football, basketball and baseball.

[footballfan413]

I think football players are far worse than hockey players...ESPECIALLY off the field. It's apparent when looking at just the criminal stories over the past 5-10 years in the NFL. Guns, drugs, bounty program, players constantly getting arrested, etc...It's no comparison. The NFL is the worst when it comes to thuggery and criminal activity in professional sports.

Yes, each sport has their fair share of bad apples at just about any level of competition. But it seems to be more abundant in football.

COMPLETELY different discussion than has been going on between ret and myself.  While mentioning several specific incidents about bad behavior off the ice, (the ref threat was after thug behavior on the ice, mind you,) my INITIAL comment and contention was always about the level of fighting/bad behavior in the rink and on the ice between the drop of the first puck to the buzz after the third period. What is the leagues accepted level of fighting and unsportsmanlike behavior by its players, the use of an, "enforcer," as an accepted part of the game plan and watching refs often stand by and watch after players drop their gloves for a full-on fist fight, etc.  If you want it to move to comparing criminal records between the NHL and other pro sports, I will tap put quickly.    

[footballfan413]

I understand where you come from now.

I also disagree with the larger point  though. I can't undo what has turned you off on hockey, since it is your personal experience, which is about the most valid basis for anyone's opinion.

However, my experience is that pro hockey players are about the best professional athletes one can emulate. There appears to be less misconduct off the ice by them than by other professional athletes. By that, I mean fewer of them are involved in criminal activity or other scandalous behavior. If you watch post game interviews, it seems that they are better subjects than in other sports. My belief is that when they are young, they travel with families to tournaments, and are more closely monitored by the families of the players, rather than turned over to coaches who, for better or worse, shape their outlooks .I coached in an Inline league for a number of years, and saw some of what you spoke of, but the majority of my experience, both with players, and parents was positive. Like anything else, it all depends.......

I believe we have reached an understanding about where each other is coming from and the fact that we will have to just agree to disagree.  I am fine with that if you are. 

[footballfan413]

The best thing about hockey is that it isn't soccer. 

[02 Warhawk]

I think football players are far worse than hockey players...ESPECIALLY off the field. It's apparent when looking at just the criminal stories over the past 5-10 years in the NFL. Guns, drugs, bounty program, players constantly getting arrested, etc...It's no comparison. The NFL is the worst when it comes to thuggery and criminal activity in professional sports.

Yes, each sport has their fair share of bad apples at just about any level of competition. But it seems to be more abundant in football.

COMPLETELY different discussion than has been going on between ret and myself.  While mentioning several specific incidents about bad behavior off the ice, (the ref threat was after thug behavior on the ice, mind you,) my INITIAL comment and contention was always about the level of fighting/bad behavior in the rink and on the ice between the drop of the first puck to the buzz after the third period. What is the leagues accepted level of fighting and unsportsmanlike behavior by its players, the use of an, "enforcer," as an accepted part of the game plan and watching refs often stand by and watch after players drop their gloves for a full-on fist fight, etc.  If you want it to move to comparing criminal records between the NHL and other pro sports, I will tap put quickly.   

I gotcha. Yes, there are enforcers in hockey whose sole purpose is to make things hell for those opposition. I'll agree with that.

Blackhawks have one in Dan Carcillo. His nickname is Car Bomb.  But they are a necessity

[retagent]

I understand where you come from now.

I also disagree with the larger point  though. I can't undo what has turned you off on hockey, since it is your personal experience, which is about the most valid basis for anyone's opinion.

However, my experience is that pro hockey players are about the best professional athletes one can emulate. There appears to be less misconduct off the ice by them than by other professional athletes. By that, I mean fewer of them are involved in criminal activity or other scandalous behavior. If you watch post game interviews, it seems that they are better subjects than in other sports. My belief is that when they are young, they travel with families to tournaments, and are more closely monitored by the families of the players, rather than turned over to coaches who, for better or worse, shape their outlooks .I coached in an Inline league for a number of years, and saw some of what you spoke of, but the majority of my experience, both with players, and parents was positive. Like anything else, it all depends.......

I believe we have reached an understanding about where each other is coming from and the fact that we will have to just agree to disagree.  I am fine with that if you are. 

No problem. We just happened to push buttons that we all have. Like I said. I understand where you're coming from.

The other question about best athletes is never going to be resolved. There are valid points all around. But, I have always said that there are more different skills that have to be mastered to play hockey well, than other sports.

[footballfan413]

I think football players are far worse than hockey players...ESPECIALLY off the field. It's apparent when looking at just the criminal stories over the past 5-10 years in the NFL. Guns, drugs, bounty program, players constantly getting arrested, etc...It's no comparison. The NFL is the worst when it comes to thuggery and criminal activity in professional sports.

Yes, each sport has their fair share of bad apples at just about any level of competition. But it seems to be more abundant in football.

COMPLETELY different discussion than has been going on between ret and myself.  While mentioning several specific incidents about bad behavior  and unsportsmanlike behavior by its players, the use of an, "enforcer," as an accepted part of the game plan and watching refs often stand by and watch after players drop their gloves for a full-on fist fight, etc.  If you want it to move to comparing criminal records between the NHL and other pro sports, I will tap put quickly.   

I gotcha. Yes, there are enforcers in hockey whose sole purpose is to make things hell for those opposition. I'll agree with that.

Blackhawks have one in Dan Carcillo. His nickname is Car Bomb.  But they are a necessity

Hmmm..........why do you think that is??? 

[Mr. Ypsi]

I think football players are far worse than hockey players...ESPECIALLY off the field. It's apparent when looking at just the criminal stories over the past 5-10 years in the NFL. Guns, drugs, bounty program, players constantly getting arrested, etc...It's no comparison. The NFL is the worst when it comes to thuggery and criminal activity in professional sports.

Yes, each sport has their fair share of bad apples at just about any level of competition. But it seems to be more abundant in football.

COMPLETELY different discussion than has been going on between ret and myself.  While mentioning several specific incidents about bad behavior  and unsportsmanlike behavior by its players, the use of an, "enforcer," as an accepted part of the game plan and watching refs often stand by and watch after players drop their gloves for a full-on fist fight, etc.  If you want it to move to comparing criminal records between the NHL and other pro sports, I will tap put quickly.   

I gotcha. Yes, there are enforcers in hockey whose sole purpose is to make things hell for those opposition. I'll agree with that.

Blackhawks have one in Dan Carcillo. His nickname is Car Bomb.  But they are a necessity

Hmmm..........why do you think that is??? 

I'm an adherent of Gordie Howe - BEST player of his era (maybe ever) AND best enforcer!  NOBODY messed with Gordie, and messed with a teammate often to his later regret!

[footballfan413]

I understand where you come from now.

I also disagree with the larger point  though. I can't undo what has turned you off on hockey, since it is your personal experience, which is about the most valid basis for anyone's opinion.

However, my experience is that pro hockey players are about the best professional athletes one can emulate. There appears to be less misconduct off the ice by them than by other professional athletes. By that, I mean fewer of them are involved in criminal activity or other scandalous behavior. If you watch post game interviews, it seems that they are better subjects than in other sports. My belief is that when they are young, they travel with families to tournaments, and are more closely monitored by the families of the players, rather than turned over to coaches who, for better or worse, shape their outlooks .I coached in an Inline league for a number of years, and saw some of what you spoke of, but the majority of my experience, both with players, and parents was positive. Like anything else, it all depends.......

I believe we have reached an understanding about where each other is coming from and the fact that we will have to just agree to disagree.  I am fine with that if you are. 

No problem. We just happened to push buttons that we all have. Like I said. I understand where you're coming from.

The other question about best athletes is never going to be resolved. There are valid points all around. But, I have always said that there are more different skills that have to be mastered to play hockey well, than other sports.

Now I will wade in on the other question and my choice may surprise you. As I said before, my three kids have been involved in about every mainstream sport there is, and without a doubt in my mind, the sport where you will find some of the best athletes in the world is gymnastics.  I had a club gymnast for 10 years.  Gymnasts are incredibly athletic, great balance, fast and quick and amazingly strong, pound for pound, because they are constantly lifting their own body weight.  The top level of the sport practice 24-30 hours a week 50 weeks or more of the year.  In my opinion, there is no other sport as physically and emotionally demanding as the sport of gymnastics.

[badgerwarhawk]

My brush with hockey greatness.....

A neighbor purchased the hockey rink of a high school that had discontinued the sport and has it set up in his backyard.  It's a pretty nice setup and he even purchased a used zamboni.  On weekends there's a group of guys who stop by and they have pick up games.  At any rate one weekend I drive by and there's ten times the number of cars parked up and down the road and there's a pretty large crowd gathered around the ice rink.  Being curious I decided to stop and see what was going on.  So I'm watching them play and there's this one older guy who's clearly way, way, way better than any of the others.  He's dominating play and most of the regulars seem to be in awe of him.  He scores twice without even trying in the ten minutes I'm watching.  After watching for a while I left.  The next day I see my neighbor and ask him what was happening.  It turns out that he had entered his ice rink in a contest sponsored by a company that sells outdoor rinks and his rink had been selected as the best outdoor hockey rink in America or something like that.  The prize for winning...a game with Bobby Hull.  As I've mentioned earlier I'm not much for hockey but even I know who Bobby Hull is.  However I am not able to recognize him when I see him.

[retagent]

Excellent.

If you look at Bobby Hull now, you would think he might not be able to even skate. It's a tribute to how much separation there is between decent weekend athletes and those who played as a pro. I played a couple charity games against the Washington Capitals alumni group (Yvan Lebre and Gary Sabourin are a couple names you might recognize) and about the only time these guys play together is for these type events. Yet I found that I got a sore neck from swiveling it to follow their skating. I was so far behind in my reactions, it almost made me laugh while I was on the ice. And these guys are old.

[Gray Fox]

I haven't looked at this board for several months, but I am really enjoying this discussion.
There has been some discussion lately of the long term effect of head trauma among the enforcers.  Any comment on that.  Football would also be part of that discussion.
And to cover both discussions, it seems boxers at the higher levels have to be the fittest.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Excellent.

If you look at Bobby Hull now, you would think he might not be able to even skate. It's a tribute to how much separation there is between decent weekend athletes and those who played as a pro. I played a couple charity games against the Washington Capitals alumni group (Yvan Lebre and Gary Sabourin are a couple names you might recognize) and about the only time these guys play together is for these type events. Yet I found that I got a sore neck from swiveling it to follow their skating. I was so far behind in my reactions, it almost made me laugh while I was on the ice. And these guys are old.

Truly amazing about Bobby Hull - he's so old that his third son (Brett) is in the Hall of Fame!  Just looked it up, and he turned 74 10 days ago.

I've run into Gordie Howe a couple of times in Traverse City (he'll turn 85 in March).  As late as his early 70s he looked like he could not only still lace 'em on, but wouldn't have disgraced himself playing professionally!

I can't stand 'goons' - low talent guys who would have no career at all if they couldn't (and wouldn't) fight.  But you gotta admire a guy like Gordie who was not only one of the all-time great players, but ALSO arguably the #1 enforcer!