FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[02 Warhawk]

If you're paying more to attend a private school than you would at a corresponding public school then the private school isn't competing with a public one for your services.  When there is a will my experience is the private schools seem to find a way when it comes to cost.

From the stories I've heard the tuition cost at a private school is much closer to public schools than people think. I think I've heard WArhawkdad and FF413 tell these stories hundreds of times, given their first hand experience.

[bleedpurple]

bleed. I don't think I ever said what you recall me saying - doesn't mean I didn't, but as we age..... where was I?

However, I don't disagree with your points. I do believe that there are many factors that contribute to a successful athletic program. It is the totality of those circumstances that determine that success. I'm not sure how to rank them in terms of importance, but one of the factors is that success breeds success, and UWW has had that in spades over the past decade. I still however think that a lower cost of attending a public school is a factor, along with the fact that being a state school means that admission standards are not as stringent as those of most private schools. That is as a result of the different missions of those two types of institution. Mt Union is more of an outlier than representative of a private college.

That being said, there is obviously a new recruiting emphasis at St John's than in the past. A few years ago, there might have been a dozen out of state players on the football team. Now there's at least that number from California and Arizona alone. The willingness to recruit, and the effectiveness of those efforts doesn't necessarily follow. UWW (as well as other UW schools) has been very successful in recruiting quality players, and just being less expensive, or more lenient doesn't, in and of itself, explain the success. There has to be other elements, which is what you are emphasizing, and which I can't argue against.

I'm not sure you exactly said those point but my general impression during these ongoing public/private debates was that you acknowledged them to be valid factors.  For a long time, I felt like you ignored those factors by stressing the advantages that you felt helped UW-W rise to the top. As time went on, I came to believe you know those factors I mentioned (Leadership, vision, commitment, etc) were the most important factors in UW-W's success.It seems like part of your quest in this debate to incite UW-W posters (just for fun because you believe us to be a sensitive bunch). And actually., I have no problem with that. 

[retagent]

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I'm actually moving toward your position as time goes on.

[bleedpurple]

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I'm actually moving toward your position as time goes on.

Ok, got it! Thanks for the clarification. +k 

On another note, I'm happy for you and the other St. John's backers for the Johnnies' success this year.  Maybe it is the traditionalist in me, but I think D-III football is simply better when the Johnnies are strong.

[kubiack78]

Back in the 80's I went on many recruiting trips to figure out where I wanted to go to school/ play football.  I hit the Midwest circuit, WIAC (WSUC back then) and a few out of state schools that were D2 NDSU, SDSU, Agustana (Sioux Falls SD)and Dana College (NAIA).  I got offered a partial to NDSU and Dana but ended up staying in state at UWO due to a girl. We broke up before we even got to college and I ended up transferring to UWW.  Being an 18 yr. old kid  sometimes you don't think straight haha

[retagent]

Thanks for the walk down memory lane. It just shows that there are too many reasons for which college someone might choose to categorically say what factors are present in the school itself that causes that decision to be made. However, I'm sure that there is something present in those schools that have successful programs that is superior in some way to those that don't.

[fredfalcon]

UniqueInsight38--One big reason RF is not competitive in the
WIAC:  they start one senior on offense. Of the top 22 listed in 2 deeps on offense, as of Oct. 15, 20 are underclassmen and 6 are freshmen.

On D, only 2 seniors start and only 3/22 are listed in 2 deeps. Five of the listed players are freshmen.

Of seven special teams positions, no seniors start, and 3/14 freshmen start; 5  freshmen are listed in 2 deeps.

I would guess no other WIAC team is that young.

[ScreamingEagles]

Looks like UWL is going with a new QB this weekend to attempt to jumpstart the offense (256 yards per game so far this year!).

http://lacrossetribune.com/sports/localcollege/sires-out-cummings-in-as-uw-l-s-quarterback/article_e4638764-36ce-11e3-bd37-001a4bcf887a.html

Hopefully this will help get something going, I still feel like these last five games are winnable for the Eagles.

[Just Bill]

Back in the 80's I went on many recruiting trips to figure out where I wanted to go to school/ play football.  I hit the Midwest circuit, WIAC (WSUC back then) and a few out of state schools that were D2 NDSU, SDSU, Agustana (Sioux Falls SD)and Dana College (NAIA).  I got offered a partial to NDSU and Dana but ended up staying in state at UWO due to a girl. We broke up before we even got to college and I ended up transferring to UWW.  Being an 18 yr. old kid  sometimes you don't think straight haha

The high school significant other is ALWAYS the worst reason to select a college.

[WarhawkDad]

If you're paying more to attend a private school than you would at a corresponding public school then the private school isn't competing with a public one for your services.  When there is a will my experience is the private schools seem to find a way when it comes to cost.

From the stories I've heard the tuition cost at a private school is much closer to public schools than people think. I think I've heard WArhawkdad and FF413 tell these stories hundreds of times, given their first hand experience.

Our experience with public vs private was that the private would offer "merit" scholarships in an amount that made them competitive from a cost standpoint (nothing about education level) with the public school.  Obviously as we all agree there is way more to picking a school to attend than just the cost.  I would agree that picking one based upon the highschool significant other is not always a good reason.

The more interesting thing for me was the NAIA schools that came knocking with full rides.....

[WarhawkDad]

UniqueInsight38--One big reason RF is not competitive in the
WIAC:  they start one senior on offense. Of the top 22 listed in 2 deeps on offense, as of Oct. 15, 20 are underclassmen and 6 are freshmen.

On D, only 2 seniors start and only 3/22 are listed in 2 deeps. Five of the listed players are freshmen.

Of seven special teams positions, no seniors start, and 3/14 freshmen start; 5  freshmen are listed in 2 deeps.

I would guess no other WIAC team is that young.

Fred

For the 5 years I have been on these boards (not very long compared to many) I believe that River Falls has always been a fairly young team.   Is it because the upper classmen loose interest?  Because the coaches are looking for new talent because the upper classmen were not as competitive as they had hoped?  Having attended 2 games at River Falls, it is not the campus itself or the city. It is too affordable (given reciprocity with MN) for athletes in the twin cities not to take a look at seriously, so something is not selling the school.  It is the facilities.   

I believe people when they say that the coaches are dedicated and the athletes are dedicated.  You have to get the administration and frankly the City and businesses in the City on the same page to help grow the fund raising and facilities.   Personally, I would love to see River Falls move up in the conference.

[WarhawkDad]

Pulled over from the ATN board last year so the numbers are a year old, but still gives a picture:

Places like MN, IA and WI are not recruiting hotbeds. They produce a limited number of HS football players that can legitimately play college ball. States like Illinois, Ohio and Michigan simply produce a far greater number of legit college football talent. It's really just a population thing. Then you factor in the number of colleges (especially FBS, FCS and DII) and you get a sense of what kind of talent the population can support.

Population Numbers
IL: 12.9 mil
OH: 11.5 mil
MI: 9.8 mil

WI: 5.7 mil
MN: 5.3 Mil

IA: 3 mil

SD: .8 mil
ND: .7 mil

States like IL, OH and MI have multiple FBS, FCS or DII schools. They've also got 2-4 times as many people as WI, MN and IA. There's plenty of talent to go around.

Wisconsin has a slightly larger population than MN and only 1 FBS, FCS or DII football playing school. Lower population, but fewer schools competing for the resources. And as others have noted, Whitewater has a great location to Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago (so they can even dip into the IL talent pool). 02 Warhawk is right, it's either DI or DIII.

MN has 1 FBS and multiple DII's. IA has 2 FBS, 2 FCS (Drake is a weird one in that they don't offer scholarship) and several DII's.

Another factor that I think gets overlooked with MN and IA is that they are bordered by two states, South Dakota and North Dakota, with tiny populations and 2 FCS schools a piece, plus a smattering of DII's. These boarder states have to raid talent from MN and IA to fill their rosters due to their lack of instate talent/population.

Case in point, NDSU (Defending FCS National Champs) has 33 MN kids on their roster to 20 ND or 14 WI kids. SDSU has 17 MN kids and 15 IA kids to 5 Wis & 22 from SD.

Personally, I think the population to FBS/FCS/DII ratio is a much more significant factor than any of the others listed.

But bottom line, a school still has to recruit and ultimately coach up and develop the talent. You can have all the population ratio advantages, but junk coaching will kill you. Or you can have the disadvantages and close the gap through very good coaching. What's lethal is when you've got situations like UWW and historically UWL, who've taken advantage of both.

And then there's this breakdown (again, last years numbers, I'm not recounting this and doubling down on the time wasted!)

Finally, here are the numbers of MN and WI recruits at DII, FCS, FBS schools in the area:

Duluth: 44 WI, 46 MN
Winona: 29 WI, 33 MN
Mankato: 29 WI, 26 MN
Southwest: 12 WI, 52 MN
Concordia: 19 WI, 34 MN
Augustana: 1 WI, 39 MN
Sioux Falls: 4 WI, 14 MN
Northern St: 3 WI; 18 MN
Bemidji: 21 WI, 51 MN
St. Cloud: 2 WI, 17 MN
Crookston: 6 WI, 25 MN
Morehead: 2 WI, 43 MN
Total: 172 WI v. 398 MN

NDSU: 14 WI, 33 MN
SDSU: 5 WI, 17 MN
UND: 13 WI, 29 MN
USD: 3 WI, 5 MN
UNI: 5 WI, 17 MN
Total: 40 WI v. 101 MN

So yes, Northern Sun and NoDak/SoDak FCS schools do recruit some Wisconsin athletes. But they far and away recruit more MN athletes. Which given proximity and population factors just makes sense.

Given the population numbers above, I think this is pretty telling information for explaining the quality of teams and depth in the WIAC. That, and schools having a 100 man roster limit means top to bottom more teams get access to the good players.

UST and SJU probably total close to 350 players between the two of them. I think Concordia tends to have similar numbers as well.

Thanks Hazzben....good data, but it left out Illinois...I know us flatlanders are used to it   

Check this out recently posted on the MIAC Board
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/playerrankings/_/region/Midwest/class/2014/view/region

Just for fun I looked and counted (and I could have missed one here or there) the number of Illinois players on the rosters of WIAC schools.  Here is what I found

UW - River Falls         0
UW - Eau Claire          2
UW - Stevens Point    4
UW - Oshkosh           6
UW- Stout                7
UW - LaCrosse          7
UW - Whitewater       27
UW - Platteville         53

Now when you consider distance from the Chicago metro area, the closest are UWW, UWP and UWO, so I have to believe that proximity, winning tradition and facilities entered strongly into the decision.  Also the tuition reciprocity that UWP has with Illinois and Iowa helps them in a serious way.

Just more food for thought (absolutely no assertion that the number of FIBS on a team is any indication of future success  ) 

WarhawkDad

[couchp54]

Keep in mind that a lot of D2 recruits get partial scholarships, not full.  Often financial aid at a D3 can match a partial athletic scholarship at a D2.  With some private D2's a partial still leaves more owed than a public school full tuition.  There is also the factor I mentioned before, playing for a winning D3 vs a mediocre D2

I agree.  I have heard of plenty of WIAC athletes who were recruited by D2 schools and when costs were compared (even with scholarship) the WIAC school was still cheaper or comparable.  Add that to being close to home, going to a school where your friends may be, and playing in the top (arguably) D3 conference, I think there are a fair number of athletes who could play D2 but choose to stay in the area.  Mankato is not too far from WI, so I'm not surprised many of our athletes end up there.  They also seem to recruit aggressively.  Mankato was contacting a couple of our local high school athletes (various sports) as early as their soph year in high school.

[couchp54]

Back in the 80's I went on many recruiting trips to figure out where I wanted to go to school/ play football.  I hit the Midwest circuit, WIAC (WSUC back then) and a few out of state schools that were D2 NDSU, SDSU, Agustana (Sioux Falls SD)and Dana College (NAIA).  I got offered a partial to NDSU and Dana but ended up staying in state at UWO due to a girl. We broke up before we even got to college and I ended up transferring to UWW.  Being an 18 yr. old kid  sometimes you don't think straight haha

The high school significant other is ALWAYS the worst reason to select a college.

And it seems its the boy who chooses the school based upon where the girl goes.  I've heard this many times from parents of boys, but I can't remember the last time I heard the parents of a girl say their daughter chose her school because that's where her boyfriend went.     

[badgerwarhawk]

I chose WHITEWATER because my girlfriend at the time was coming here and a good friend said I could room with him.  Her and I lasted about a year and half after that.