FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[KitchenSink]

You come up with a "bonus system" where those who schedule non-conf against Top 25 teams get extra post-season consideration for scheduling and losing to a top 25 team.  (perhaps double extra consideration for Top 10)

(Obviously a win against a top 25 carries its own benefit)

[jknezek]

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

What do you do then when one team designates it "not to count" and uses it like scrimmage to test things out and blood young players while the other team uses it as a game that counts and gets a blowout win? Does it then only count half for the team that played full strength? I can see the utility for the top tier teams that struggle to get a game, but for most of D3, there is very little point and the possibility for disingenuous play.

[bleedpurple]

If you look under "Open Dates" for the first four weeks of next season, UWO is listed for three of the weeks. Several other WIAC schools have at least one open date. UWW does not appear.

North Central has two open dates, Wheaton has three.

Let me get Coach Ceroni on the phone and tell him to schedule North Central and Wheaton     Since Coach C took over they have had at least one solid non-conf opponent each season...either of these teams would be a great non-conf contest. Though they immediately forces the need to finish undefeated in conference to make the playoffs.

Unfortunately this bolded statement is more than enough reason for me to oppose a UWW - St John's type of non con game. Like others I'd love to see the game but the loser faces immense pressure in conference play.

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

The easiest solution is to win the game. Only the is loser put into the predicament.

Besides...

If a team thinks it has the chance of winning a national championship, then go out and win your conference and show the country you belong.  To be afraid to schedule a strong team because "then we may have to win our conference to have a chance at winning the national championship" seems preposterous to me.

Shouldn't we just think of "Pool C" bids as a gift,anyway? When is the last time a Pool C (or B for that matter) won the National Championship? And how many times has it happened since the tournament moved to 32 teams? I know UW-W was Pool A every championship they won.

[WarhawkDad]

(Head turning side to side) "Hey, how did I get dragged into this?" 

OK, I won't be surprised. 

Saw a football staff member after the Waldorf game. People were riding him about it being a boring game.  His response was funny.  "It probably would have been more boring for you if we played air. You can only play who picks up the phone."I am hoping there are a FEW D3 schools out there with openings that are serious about getting better and want to take the UW-W, UW-O, Franklin approach of playing a top tier team to see what it takes to get there.  It's been rough so far, I know that. Another possibility would be Wesley. They have a hard time finding D3 games. Maybe when UMHB falls off their schedule, UW-W could slide in.  Otherwise, I will be happy to see Waldorf. Football season is too short as it is (for me, not players and coaches.  )  At the end of the day, whatever it takes to play 10 games.  Play a D2 school? I'm guessing they have less interest in that than other D3 schools.

Great point, why else would we have played Dickinson State, Midland Lutheran, etc... etc... etc... over the years.  Bleed, given that you are the Godfather of WIWA, I assume you are probably ok with playing almost anyone?    I have to admit, I enjoyed going to Franklin and watching a game there and I would have enjoyed Wash U there if it was not for the remnants of the hurricane and the torrential rain.    If you think about it Wash U benefitted their program by doing a home and away series with UWW.  Look at their record this year, even being talked about as a potential playoff program.   I see little to be gained for a top 10 school to play another top 10 for non-conference.   

I think the bolded statement above is probably right for most of the top programs.

WHD

[bleedpurple]

(Head turning side to side) "Hey, how did I get dragged into this?" 

OK, I won't be surprised. 

Saw a football staff member after the Waldorf game. People were riding him about it being a boring game.  His response was funny.  "It probably would have been more boring for you if we played air. You can only play who picks up the phone."I am hoping there are a FEW D3 schools out there with openings that are serious about getting better and want to take the UW-W, UW-O, Franklin approach of playing a top tier team to see what it takes to get there.  It's been rough so far, I know that. Another possibility would be Wesley. They have a hard time finding D3 games. Maybe when UMHB falls off their schedule, UW-W could slide in.  Otherwise, I will be happy to see Waldorf. Football season is too short as it is (for me, not players and coaches.  )  At the end of the day, whatever it takes to play 10 games.  Play a D2 school? I'm guessing they have less interest in that than other D3 schools.

Great point, why else would we have played Dickinson State, Midland Lutheran, etc... etc... etc... over the years.  Bleed, given that you are the Godfather of WIWA, I assume you are probably ok with playing almost anyone?   I have to admit, I enjoyed going to Franklin and watching a game there and I would have enjoyed Wash U there if it was not for the remnants of the hurricane and the torrential rain.    If you think about it Wash U benefitted their program by doing a home and away series with UWW.  Look at their record this year, even being talking about as a potential playoff program.   I see little to be gained for a top 10 school to play another top 10 for non-conference.   

I think the bolded statement above is probably right for most of the top programs.

WHD

Corrected it for you. 

It's in my blood. Just ask any of the players who played for UW-W between 1956 and 1984. Most of them played on teams that played some serious non-conference games. The purpose? To get ready to win the WSUC/WIAC.  Ironically, most of those games were against D2/D1 teams and would not count against a team with playoff aspirations today.  You learn a lot more about yourself playing strong teams than you do playing cream puffs. 

[D O.C.]

"There's an old saying, 'To whom much is given, much is expected," Walworth County Judge Phillip Koss said.

"Mr. Coppage, my lecture will do nothing, it will all be up to you," Koss said. "If you're going to succeed in life, you have graciously gotten the tools to do that today." - See more at: http://gazettextra.com/article/20130813/ARTICLES/130819904#sthash.ZF4akd5V.dpuf

[emma17]

If you look under "Open Dates" for the first four weeks of next season, UWO is listed for three of the weeks. Several other WIAC schools have at least one open date. UWW does not appear.

North Central has two open dates, Wheaton has three.

Let me get Coach Ceroni on the phone and tell him to schedule North Central and Wheaton     Since Coach C took over they have had at least one solid non-conf opponent each season...either of these teams would be a great non-conf contest. Though they immediately forces the need to finish undefeated in conference to make the playoffs.

Unfortunately this bolded statement is more than enough reason for me to oppose a UWW - St John's type of non con game. Like others I'd love to see the game but the loser faces immense pressure in conference play.

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

The easiest solution is to win the game. Only the is loser put into the predicament.

Besides...

If a team thinks it has the chance of winning a national championship, then go out and win your conference and show the country you belong.   To be afraid to schedule a strong team because "then we may have to win our conference to have a chance at winning the national championship" seems preposterous to me.

Shouldn't we just think of "Pool C" bids as a gift,anyway? When is the last time a Pool C (or B for that matter) won the National Championship? And how many times has it happened since the tournament moved to 32 teams? I know UW-W was Pool A every championship they won.

Bleed- I don't disagree with you from the standpoint of a team that "thinks it has a chance of winning the national championship".  However, I think there are many teams that need to get to the playoffs first.  I don't know how many teams win the national championship in their first trip to the playoffs.  Take a conference like the IIAC.  I think it would be a bad move for a Coe, Wartburg, Simpson or Dubuque to schedule a UWW, St. Thomas or NCC in a non-con game.  If I'm a player at Simpson, my goal is to get to the playoffs.  Yes, you guaranty it by winning conference, but things happen in the course of a season that could prevent a team from being at full strength for every top conference foe. 

I think part of my thinking is that I'm philosophically aligned to the main goal being playoffs as opposed to the main goal being winning conference. 

Didn't UWW get into the playoffs as Pool C in 2008?  I know they didn't win the championship, but they got there the hard way.  Did Mt Union win the 2005 championship as Pool C?  I can't remember if they lost the conference with their one loss.   

[emma17]

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

What do you do then when one team designates it "not to count" and uses it like scrimmage to test things out and blood young players while the other team uses it as a game that counts and gets a blowout win? Does it then only count half for the team that played full strength? I can see the utility for the top tier teams that struggle to get a game, but for most of D3, there is very little point and the possibility for disingenuous play.

I guess it's always possible.  I prefer to think that with only 10 games in a season, every game would be played to win.  I agree that this would best benefit the top ranked teams in their scheduling efforts.  Many times these teams are blowing out their non conf opponents anyway.
As for non-top 25 teams, if they choose to use a half to experiment- why does it matter?  There isn't really anything so crazy a coach would do that the game is no longer football. 
Again, with only 10 games per regular season, I think every coach would treat this non counting non-conf game seriously in terms of developing and preparing the team for success in the season.   

[d-train]

PLU in '99 was conference runner-up and national champ. SJU conference and national runner-up in '00...

[bleedpurple]

If you look under "Open Dates" for the first four weeks of next season, UWO is listed for three of the weeks. Several other WIAC schools have at least one open date. UWW does not appear.

North Central has two open dates, Wheaton has three.

Let me get Coach Ceroni on the phone and tell him to schedule North Central and Wheaton     Since Coach C took over they have had at least one solid non-conf opponent each season...either of these teams would be a great non-conf contest. Though they immediately forces the need to finish undefeated in conference to make the playoffs.

Unfortunately this bolded statement is more than enough reason for me to oppose a UWW - St John's type of non con game. Like others I'd love to see the game but the loser faces immense pressure in conference play.

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

The easiest solution is to win the game. Only the is loser put into the predicament.

Besides...

If a team thinks it has the chance of winning a national championship, then go out and win your conference and show the country you belong.   To be afraid to schedule a strong team because "then we may have to win our conference to have a chance at winning the national championship" seems preposterous to me.

Shouldn't we just think of "Pool C" bids as a gift,anyway? When is the last time a Pool C (or B for that matter) won the National Championship? And how many times has it happened since the tournament moved to 32 teams? I know UW-W was Pool A every championship they won.

Bleed- I don't disagree with you from the standpoint of a team that "thinks it has a chance of winning the national championship".  However, I think there are many teams that need to get to the playoffs first.  I don't know how many teams win the national championship in their first trip to the playoffs.  Take a conference like the IIAC.  I think it would be a bad move for a Coe, Wartburg, Simpson or Dubuque to schedule a UWW, St. Thomas or NCC in a non-con game.  If I'm a player at Simpson, my goal is to get to the playoffs.  Yes, you guaranty it by winning conference, but things happen in the course of a season that could prevent a team from being at full strength for every top conference foe. 

I think part of my thinking is that I'm philosophically aligned to the main goal being playoffs as opposed to the main goal being winning conference. 

Didn't UWW get into the playoffs as Pool C in 2008?  I know they didn't win the championship, but they got there the hard way.  Did Mt Union win the 2005 championship as Pool C?  I can't remember if they lost the conference with their one loss.   

You make a good point about '08. While UW-W didn't win it, they did advance to the Stagg Bowl that year. While they were co-champions that year, but the WIAC tiebreaker sent UW-Stevens Point, who promptly lost in the first round to Wartburg.   For the teams in that position (a co-championship), scheduling a power non-con team really comes back to bite them, especially with only 5 Pool C bids out there.  I am not sure it can be codified. Like with any legislation, the risk of unintended consequence is high.  What I know is that scheduling the top teams worked for UW-W, UW-O, and apparently Franklin. Each of those teams took a risk during particular seasons to play the best with a long term goal in mind.  I wonder if the IIAC teams you cite have a long term goal of a national championship (I'm pretty sure one of them does).  If they do, it actually might be in the program's best interest to play the best. The administration (people with input into the long term plan) makes the schedule, not the kids.  The kids go out and play whatever team is put in front of them. And if a team has a 30% chance of making the playoffs, a shot at Mount or UW-W may be the highlight of the year for them and worth the risk.

[desertcat1]

If you look under "Open Dates" for the first four weeks of next season, UWO is listed for three of the weeks. Several other WIAC schools have at least one open date. UWW does not appear.

North Central has two open dates, Wheaton has three.

Let me get Coach Ceroni on the phone and tell him to schedule North Central and Wheaton     Since Coach C took over they have had at least one solid non-conf opponent each season...either of these teams would be a great non-conf contest. Though they immediately forces the need to finish undefeated in conference to make the playoffs.

Unfortunately this bolded statement is more than enough reason for me to oppose a UWW - St John's type of non con game. Like others I'd love to see the game but the loser faces immense pressure in conference play.

Maybe D3 can establish a sort of Pre-Season game whereby each team can designate a non conf game to not count toward its record. Similar to how the wiac treated the recent years where one WIAC game was considered non conf.
I'd like to think scheduling difficulties would be eased.

The easiest solution is to win the game. Only the is loser put into the predicament.

Besides...

If a team thinks it has the chance of winning a national championship, then go out and win your conference and show the country you belong.  To be afraid to schedule a strong team because "then we may have to win our conference to have a chance at winning the national championship" seems preposterous to me.

Shouldn't we just think of "Pool C" bids as a gift,anyway? When is the last time a Pool C (or B for that matter) won the National Championship? And how many times has it happened since the tournament moved to 32 teams? I know UW-W was Pool A every championship they won.

PLU was a second place team in the NWC In 1999 and Seventh seed/pick in the west to win the Championship,  Plus they did it on the Road every  game..  If I remember it right?

[badgerwarhawk]

What I'd like to see is for the conference to enter into some sort of contract with another conference to provide out of conference games for each other.  In Wisconsin this is done at the high school level.  I suppose it probably wouldn't be too popular at the collegiate level. 

[WarhawkDad]

What I'd like to see is for the conference to enter into some sort of contract with another conference to provide out of conference games for each other.  In Wisconsin this is done at the high school level.  I suppose it probably wouldn't be too popular at the collegiate level.

I agree with you Badgerwarhawk and I think it could be done every two or four years to allow for some rotation.  Logistically you have some issues, like who plays who...is it based upon the prior year's conference rankings etc....but I think it could work and it would help allow travel to at least be known from a budgeting standpoint.

[bleedpurple]

What I'd like to see is for the conference to enter into some sort of contract with another conference to provide out of conference games for each other.  In Wisconsin this is done at the high school level.  I suppose it probably wouldn't be too popular at the collegiate level.

I think the reason this is unlikely is the obvious. The schools that would have to agree to it are the same schools that are not willing to schedule certain schools.  It would work well for the conferences that probably have no problem scheduling games, anyway. 

It seems to me, what REALLY needs to be looked at is the criteria for making the playoffs.  Even though I follow a team from a "power" conference, I am a proponent of access for qualifying conference champions.  I would't want to change that.  But, I'm not sure I'm sold on Pool B.  I'm just not sure schools that play in non-pool A qualifying conferences should be give a separate pool apart from the pool C teams. 

The UAA has four teams. So those schools get the benefit of a possible Pool B bid and then, if unsuccessful, Pool C consideration? Meanwhile teams that have UW-W, Mount Union, Linfield, UMHB in their conference ALONG with a full conference schedule are left with the remaining 5 bids.  Why not create one pool with 8 teams to consider?  And then rather than MORE specific rules for the committee, why not simply charge them (with "guidelines" but not constraints that don't allow common sense to prevail) with picking the best 8 remaining teams.  And while I'm in dream land here, why does the committee have to be all school representatives? The D1 committee for their upcoming playoff consists of a board mixed inside and outside of the NCAA.  If people like Keith and Pat haven't demonstrated a willingness and even pride in journalistic neutrality, I don't know who have.  It seems like an infusion of outsiders who really know D3 and who would advocate ONLY for a fair process and coming up with the best final product could be a good thing. 

Having said all that, I need to clarify that I am not saying this in reaction to previous brackets. I think two years ago, the brackets were stunningly good and interesting (I'm sure some schools would take issue). The committees do what they are charged to do within the constraints they are given.  I think there is a valid reason to review those constraints: They affect more than this year's playoff bracket, they affect a school's ability and willingness to schedule games. 

[Pat Coleman]

I think the basic point of Pool B is to give those schools access similar to the Pool A conferences. Those bids are allocated at the exact same ratio and since we make no distinction for the quality of a conference when it comes to handing out automatic bids, we shouldn't for Pool B either, I think.

To date, no Pool B-eligible football team has gotten a Pool C bid, in 14 seasons.

Now, that being said, as we grow in Division III football and our playoff field remains forever capped at 32, we need to do something differently. To me, I think we should think about whether every conference must have an automatic bid every year, or whether we can do what Division II does and let them have an AQ only if they finish in, perhaps, the top 15 of a regional ranking or something like that.

In any given year, that might free up a bid or two. That would be my take. For Division II, they have to finish in the top eight, but I'd like to be a little more forgiving.