FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

BTW, Bluenote, I haven't seen any looney posts since you started all this.

Not ALL public (state) schools are large: Castleton St., Johnson St., and Lyndon St. (all VT, all NAC) have a cumulative enrollment of c. 4,000.  And in these days of budget-cutting, even the advantages that I said state schools might have (better facilities and ability to hire better coaches), may no longer be true.  (Maybe they were never true vs. well-funded [or truly smart] privates: wealthy donors can provide incredible facilities publics can't match [see UMHB's 'Cruthedral' or Hope's DeVos], and have any schools ever had better coaches than Larry Kehres or John Gagliardi?

[footballfan413]

The funny thing here is that DOC is questioning the academic proficiency of the WIAC students (and I assume UWW students more specifically), while his partner in trolling silliness, Bluenote, can't grasp the simplest of concepts regarding student enrollment and its relation to winning in college football.  If both DOC and Bluenote are Linfield or NWC grads... 

badgerwarhawk's post should act just like a picture book for Bluenote, limiting the chance of confusing him with too many words.

While this gave me a chuckle, I know too many, really GREAT Cat posters to ever take a swipe at their crowd.  The funny irony is that, prior to our unprecedented run for any WIAC team, the joint opinion on these boards was that our big, bad public schools only produced teams that were, "big, slow and dumb," and, absolutely no threat to be playing in the second round.  Now our success is taken by some as proof that we, somehow, have risen to the top through, "unfair," advantages.    Whatever...........     They are a very small in numbers.   

[retagent]

I will, at my peril, weigh in on this yet again. The determining factor is not the number of enrolees, it is the fact that state schools, by their very nature and purpose, are, and should be, less discriminating in their enrollment. Their charter is to educate the masses (not exactly stated, but that is the gist). Therefore, a student who would probably not make the "cut" academically for a private school, whose standards are routinely higher, will be able to get into a state college. That's not disparaging those students. If my memory serves, Bill Gates is not a college graduate. That means that an elite athlete, who might not have been as diligent in his academic endeavors in high school has a better chance of getting accepted at a state college than he does of getting admitted to a private school.

I've tried to get this point accross a number of times, but have been ridiculed, usually not addressing that specific point. I hope I have better luck this time. It's not a guarantee that a state college will have more, better athletes, but it is an advantage they have.  Another adavatage is lower cost. As has been pointed out many times, private colleges probably give out more financial aid than do public schools (although I've never actually seen the stats on that, I don't dispute it), which might somewhat offset that advantage. There are many other factors, but to deny what I have written above is dishonest.

[jknezek]

I will, at my peril, weigh in on this yet again. The determining factor is not the number of enrolees, it is the fact that state schools, by their very nature and purpose, are, and should be, less discriminating in their enrollment. Their charter is to educate the masses (not exactly stated, but that is the gist). Therefore, a student who would probably not make the "cut" academically for a private school, whose standards are routinely higher, will be able to get into a state college. That's not disparaging those students. If my memory serves, Bill Gates is not a college graduate. That means that an elite athlete, who might not have been as diligent in his academic endeavors in high school has a better chance of getting accepted at a state college than he does of getting admitted to a private school.

I've tried to get this point accross a number of times, but have been ridiculed, usually not addressing that specific point. I hope I have better luck this time. It's not a guarantee that a state college will have more, better athletes, but it is an advantage they have.  Another adavatage is lower cost. As has been pointed out many times, private colleges probably give out more financial aid than do public schools (although I've never actually seen the stats on that, I don't dispute it), which might somewhat offset that advantage. There are many other factors, but to deny what I have written above is dishonest.

No it's not dishonest to deny what you wrote, it's simply disagreement. There are a lot of private schools in D3 with ridiculously low standards. If you can breathe and write your name on a check, and have a high school diploma, there is a private D3 school that will accept you. While public schools certainly have lower academic standards, and for good reason as you point out, then the elite D3 private schools, D3 is a huge universe and there are more than a few diploma mills.

I will agree that most private schools cannot compete with in-state tuition for a public school, even with a huge financial aid package. But there are exceptions to this as well. Many private schools can offer full-ride need or academic packages, or, as W&L just went on record with, full tuition for any student whose parents make less than $70K. Of course you have to be somewhat in demand to qualify for these packages, usually the better students, who may or may not be athletically inclined. I won't deny there is an advantage to a  moderately above average or lower student from a moderately above average income family or lower in attending a state school. Overall though, the argument is not particularly strong.

Especially with Mount Union, a moderately expensive private school, as the longtime heavy weight in D3 football. Only 1 public school made the elite 8 this year. If there was that much of an advantage, more of the scattered public schools would have progressed, even accounting for the fact that the public schools are primarily grouped in just a few conferences. On a larger basis, the vast majority of D3 dynasties, soccer, swimming, wrestling, etc., all belong to private schools.

[badgerwarhawk]

Here is a cool read.  Football championship history was made in 2013 and the WARHAWKS were part of it!!!!!   

"Five teams. Seventy-three wins. Not a loss between them. It had never happened before in the history of the greatest game on turf, but we can now hold 2013 up as the year the worth of every single national champion was utterly indisputable."

http://www.bringonthecats.com/2014/1/7/5284096/2013-college-football-history-achieved-five-champions-unbeaten-first-time-ever

That is way cool.  Thanks for leaving the link. 

[footballfan413]

I will, at my peril, weigh in on this yet again. The determining factor is not the number of enrolees, it is the fact that state schools, by their very nature and purpose, are, and should be, less discriminating in their enrollment. Their charter is to educate the masses (not exactly stated, but that is the gist). Therefore, a student who would probably not make the "cut" academically for a private school, whose standards are routinely higher, will be able to get into a state college. That's not disparaging those students. If my memory serves, Bill Gates is not a college graduate. That means that an elite athlete, who might not have been as diligent in his academic endeavors in high school has a better chance of getting accepted at a state college than he does of getting admitted to a private school.

I've tried to get this point accross a number of times, but have been ridiculed, usually not addressing that specific point. I hope I have better luck this time. It's not a guarantee that a state college will have more, better athletes, but it is an advantage they have.  Another adavatage is lower cost. As has been pointed out many times, private colleges probably give out more financial aid than do public schools (although I've never actually seen the stats on that, I don't dispute it), which might somewhat offset that advantage. There are many other factors, but to deny what I have written above is dishonest.

I have actually had the experience of having a son, who was recruited by both private and public schools, mostly in IL., so I will speak to these points.  I don't deny either point but, in my experience, both had very little effect on my son's choice because those differences were very minimal.  For example, as to standards, he was recruited, applied and accepted to a good number of CCIW schools and there was only one, that he was not accepted to. So, while it can happen that a private school is unable to get a player they may want because of academic standards, our experience is just a snap shot, but it does indicate that this happens less than many, who push the public school advantage argument, would like to acknowledge.

  As to the cost point, again based on our experiences,  he was given so much, "academic,"  money (nothing to do with, "need," or "academics"  ) that in most cases, the cost of choosing one of those private schools over the cost of paying in-state tuition to an Illinois school, would have only been a few thousand more a year and in one school's offer, the cost would have actually been less.  So again, while it can happen that a private school is unable to get a player they may want because of tuition costs, our experience is just a snap shot, but it does indicate to me that this happens less than many, who push the public school advantage argument, would like to acknowledge.

   There are legitimate arguments, on both sides, no doubt, in this never ending debate regarding which type of school has more advantages but, in my experience, the advantages attributed to public schools is fairly minimal and neither played into my son's final choice as to where he decided to go.  I became a part of the program in 03 and have had a front row seat to watch Whitewater's rise to the top and so I have a huge problem with those that use this argument to minimize what UWW has accomplished, implying that it was because we are just a large, cheap, public school with low academic standards.  It was, much more, the result of a decade of hard work by some very talented players, staff and A.D., boosters and top administration, who set a goal, and went on record with that goal, to win a national championship back in the early 2000's, and then achieved that goal, far beyond what many of us could have imagined.  I could never have predicted the, ultimate, success that the Warhawks have been able to achieve but I do know how it happened and it was not because we are a public school with built in advantages.     As jknezek so eloquently pointed out, if it was that simple, every public school could do it.   

[02 Warhawk]

UW-Whitewater's Brian Borland has been named one of three finalists for the FootballScoop.com D3 Coordinator of the Year Award. The other finalists are: Linfield's Jackson Vaughan, North Central's Jeff Thorne

The winner will be announced at the American Football Coaches Association's annual convention later thus month

http://www.footballscoop.com/coaching-awards/2013-coaches-of-the-year/2013-division-iii-coordinator

Come on man, how is this even a contest?
No disrespect to the other guys as they are no doubt really good. The UWW D was well beyond anything those teams accomplished.

Borland ended up taking it.

[footballfan413]

UW-Whitewater's Brian Borland has been named one of three finalists for the FootballScoop.com D3 Coordinator of the Year Award. The other finalists are: Linfield's Jackson Vaughan, North Central's Jeff Thorne

The winner will be announced at the American Football Coaches Association's annual convention later thus month

http://www.footballscoop.com/coaching-awards/2013-coaches-of-the-year/2013-division-iii-coordinator

Come on man, how is this even a contest?
No disrespect to the other guys as they are no doubt really good. The UWW D was well beyond anything those teams accomplished.

Borland ended up taking it.

This is fantastic!  So happy for Brian!  I did not realize, until recently, that he came to UWW the year before my son,  an addition to that talented staff that I just talked about that can be pointed to when looking at all the reasons why we are  where we are today!  Congrats, Coach Borland!  You are the best!   

[retagent]

413. I agree with what you wrote. That's basically all I was trying to say. We may disagree on the size of the advantage, but, I doubt we can quantify it exactly, unless we interviewed EVERY D III colege athlete, and were able to get completely candid and honest answers. Like most other things in life, there is much grey area. I think we can leave it at that without having to come to a definitive conclusion.

[02 Warhawk]

I wonder if football fans of Duke, Notre Dame and Boston College are looking at Florida State right now and saying, "Geesh, must be nice having a high enrollment and lower academic standards."

I'm guessing no.

[MonroviaCat]

I wonder if football fans of Duke, Notre Dame and Boston College are looking at Florida State right now and saying, "Geesh, must be nice having a high enrollment and lower academic standards."

I'm guessing no.

Ha--I bet you are wrong.  As is the case here, I bet there a few fans from those schools making the same argument.  The point being that it is only a few.  Anytime a team wins (be it a single game or the championship) a team that they beat will look for excuses for the loss.  As a Linfield fan, it's been said that we are often better than other teams in the NWC because we have a JV program or because our admission standards are not as high as some of the other schools in the conference.  Each school has unique advantages and disadvantages (location, facilities, size, money, standards, etc.).  And each program will have fans that look for excuses when they lose to a team that, at least on that day (or in that season), is better. 

[emma17]

413. I agree with what you wrote. That's basically all I was trying to say. We may disagree on the size of the advantage, but, I doubt we can quantify it exactly, unless we interviewed EVERY D III colege athlete, and were able to get completely candid and honest answers. Like most other things in life, there is much grey area. I think we can leave it at that without having to come to a definitive conclusion.

Plus k's to Ret, Jknez, Mr Ypsi and 413 for focussing the discussion on the real issues.
This discussion started w the enrollment argument, which I really hope we can now vanquish to the "makes no sense and should never be brought up again without penalty of public flogging" file.

[MonroviaCat]

413. I agree with what you wrote. That's basically all I was trying to say. We may disagree on the size of the advantage, but, I doubt we can quantify it exactly, unless we interviewed EVERY D III colege athlete, and were able to get completely candid and honest answers. Like most other things in life, there is much grey area. I think we can leave it at that without having to come to a definitive conclusion.

Plus k's to Ret, Jknez, Mr Ypsi and 413 for focussing the discussion on the real issues.
This discussion started w the enrollment argument, which I really hope we can now vanquish to the "makes no sense and should never be brought up again without penalty of public flogging" file.

LOL--if only..... 

[emma17]

UW-Whitewater's Brian Borland has been named one of three finalists for the FootballScoop.com D3 Coordinator of the Year Award. The other finalists are: Linfield's Jackson Vaughan, North Central's Jeff Thorne

The winner will be announced at the American Football Coaches Association's annual convention later thus month

http://www.footballscoop.com/coaching-awards/2013-coaches-of-the-year/2013-division-iii-coordinator

Come on man, how is this even a contest?
No disrespect to the other guys as they are no doubt really good. The UWW D was well beyond anything those teams accomplished.

Borland ended up taking it.

Fantastic!!   Congrats Coach Borland.

[02 Warhawk]

And each program will have fans that look for excuses when they lose to a team that, at least on that day (or in that season), is better.

And there we have it....the truth. Hence why these arguments were never made prior to 2005 on this board.

+K

I wonder how Whitewater could have possibly turned the corner in 2005? I bet at the turn of the century UWW bottomed out their academic standards, cut their tuition in half, while doubling their enrollment....just so they could have an advantage in athletics. That's the only possible reason for their recent success. Coaches and recruiting couldn't possibly have done it alone.